GT3 vs. 996 C2 w/X74
09-21-2006, 10:24 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
GT3 vs. 996 C2 w/X74
I'm sure the GT3 is better, but how much better? Anyone out there with first hand experience behind the wheel of both?
09-22-2006, 12:25 AM
#3
I can't comment about the X74, but I can comment about a Carrera with an upgraded suspension. It depends on how each is set up. I run a ROW M030 suspension with GT3 control arms, an aggressive alignment (-1.6 camber front, -1.9 camber rear), 18x9/18/11 CCW race wheels with MPSCs at the track. I have been running with GT3's (also running MPSCs) at the track and I am very competitive and even faster than some with comparable drivers.
I learned a lot more about the GT3 when I drove a 2004 with 11K miles last weekend. I walked in to drive the car, expecting to put an immediate deposit on it. First, the suspension is not punishing on the street. Given the car I drove had a normal spec street alignment, but I found the ride equal or better than the ride in my Carrera. The springs and dampering are substantually softer than I was expecting. It is spring rates are higher, but they don't feel like it, most likely due to the long spring lengths. Here is a link to a thread about the spring rates:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-gt2-gt3-forum/282837-2005-gt3-spring-rates.html
There was noticeable body roll in the GT3, but I don't know what the sway bar settings were. With the aggressive alignment, my Carrera had quicker and more direct turn-in. Keep in mind that the suspension on a GT3 is adjustable for camber, caster and ride height. This particular GT3 was set very low, but was not loaded up on caster. The steering was noticeably lighter than my Carrera.
The most noticeable difference was really the drivetrain. Even though the GT3 I drove did not have a sport shifter, the shifter is far more direct than the Carrera gearbox. The shift gates are much better defined. The clutch is a lot heaver, probably twice the pedal pressure. I don't know if I could tolerate the clutch in traffic driving day to day. The clutch definitely has a tight snap to it engaging at the top of the pedal. Getting out of it, you can really notice how much softer the engagement of the Carrera clutch is.
The engines are noticeably different. I was expecting the GT3 engine to feel just like the Carrera engine, except with more revs. This was not the case. From 3000 to 6000 rpms, the Carrera pulls a lot stronger. The GT3 was all stock (air filter to exhaust tip), while my Carrera has an intake and and exhaust that added 22hp to the wheels on a dynojet with even a 15hp gain at 4400 rpms. Driving the GT3 casually, the throttle feels laggy and it is weaker in the midrange. That is until you hit about 6500 rpms. From there it pulls very strong. The engine really feels like a Honda VTEC motor and is very noticeable when it wakes up on cam. This should make it a lot faster, but my next surprise is how tall the gearing is. The actual gear ratios are almost identical to a Carrera, but it has 1200 more rpms to rev. It falls out of the powerband so easily. I know understand why at the tracks I run the GT3s are fighting to keep in the powerband, where I am comfortably pulling strong in mine. They are particularly hurting in slower section where they are at lower revs (to fast for first) in second pulling well below the powerband I'm already in mine for the same gear.
For brakes, the GT3 I drove had the standard iron brakes. They have a typically good pedal feel and a good amount of initial bite. They are a noticeable improvement of a stock Carrera brake setup. I run Porsche Sport pad and AP551 brake fluid, so despite the larger GT3 binders they did not have as much initial bite or as hard of a pedal. Keep in mind the GT3 most likely had the stock OEM street pads and regular Porsche non-sport brake fluid.
Does this mean the GT3 isn't a lot better, absolutely no. But the drive didleave me disappointed, because the one I drove was not the leap forward I was expecting. My comparsion is a street car that has been set up for the track versus a track car that has been set up for the street. If it was starting out stock versus stock, the GT3 would be a day and night improvement. If I were to move up to a GT3 I would bump up the caster and camber, tune the sway bars and re-gear the transmission. The pads and fluid should be upgraded. Most importantly, I would re-gear the transmission. Probably dropping the final drive 15% would fix the gearing problem and make it a much more fun car.
I am curious to hear the experiences from GT3 owners who bought their cars and did similar upgrades to what I have done to my Carrera and would do to a GT3. As an additional note, I have in the last couple of days had discussions with both the Racers Group and AutohausII. Both confirmed the same opinions about the softness of the GT3 OEM suspension (Racers Group has a fix) and tall gearing (AutohausII has a fix).
I learned a lot more about the GT3 when I drove a 2004 with 11K miles last weekend. I walked in to drive the car, expecting to put an immediate deposit on it. First, the suspension is not punishing on the street. Given the car I drove had a normal spec street alignment, but I found the ride equal or better than the ride in my Carrera. The springs and dampering are substantually softer than I was expecting. It is spring rates are higher, but they don't feel like it, most likely due to the long spring lengths. Here is a link to a thread about the spring rates:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-gt2-gt3-forum/282837-2005-gt3-spring-rates.html
There was noticeable body roll in the GT3, but I don't know what the sway bar settings were. With the aggressive alignment, my Carrera had quicker and more direct turn-in. Keep in mind that the suspension on a GT3 is adjustable for camber, caster and ride height. This particular GT3 was set very low, but was not loaded up on caster. The steering was noticeably lighter than my Carrera.
The most noticeable difference was really the drivetrain. Even though the GT3 I drove did not have a sport shifter, the shifter is far more direct than the Carrera gearbox. The shift gates are much better defined. The clutch is a lot heaver, probably twice the pedal pressure. I don't know if I could tolerate the clutch in traffic driving day to day. The clutch definitely has a tight snap to it engaging at the top of the pedal. Getting out of it, you can really notice how much softer the engagement of the Carrera clutch is.
The engines are noticeably different. I was expecting the GT3 engine to feel just like the Carrera engine, except with more revs. This was not the case. From 3000 to 6000 rpms, the Carrera pulls a lot stronger. The GT3 was all stock (air filter to exhaust tip), while my Carrera has an intake and and exhaust that added 22hp to the wheels on a dynojet with even a 15hp gain at 4400 rpms. Driving the GT3 casually, the throttle feels laggy and it is weaker in the midrange. That is until you hit about 6500 rpms. From there it pulls very strong. The engine really feels like a Honda VTEC motor and is very noticeable when it wakes up on cam. This should make it a lot faster, but my next surprise is how tall the gearing is. The actual gear ratios are almost identical to a Carrera, but it has 1200 more rpms to rev. It falls out of the powerband so easily. I know understand why at the tracks I run the GT3s are fighting to keep in the powerband, where I am comfortably pulling strong in mine. They are particularly hurting in slower section where they are at lower revs (to fast for first) in second pulling well below the powerband I'm already in mine for the same gear.
For brakes, the GT3 I drove had the standard iron brakes. They have a typically good pedal feel and a good amount of initial bite. They are a noticeable improvement of a stock Carrera brake setup. I run Porsche Sport pad and AP551 brake fluid, so despite the larger GT3 binders they did not have as much initial bite or as hard of a pedal. Keep in mind the GT3 most likely had the stock OEM street pads and regular Porsche non-sport brake fluid.
Does this mean the GT3 isn't a lot better, absolutely no. But the drive didleave me disappointed, because the one I drove was not the leap forward I was expecting. My comparsion is a street car that has been set up for the track versus a track car that has been set up for the street. If it was starting out stock versus stock, the GT3 would be a day and night improvement. If I were to move up to a GT3 I would bump up the caster and camber, tune the sway bars and re-gear the transmission. The pads and fluid should be upgraded. Most importantly, I would re-gear the transmission. Probably dropping the final drive 15% would fix the gearing problem and make it a much more fun car.
I am curious to hear the experiences from GT3 owners who bought their cars and did similar upgrades to what I have done to my Carrera and would do to a GT3. As an additional note, I have in the last couple of days had discussions with both the Racers Group and AutohausII. Both confirmed the same opinions about the softness of the GT3 OEM suspension (Racers Group has a fix) and tall gearing (AutohausII has a fix).
09-22-2006, 12:27 AM
#4
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Better where? On the track? Canyon two laners? Cruising on the freeway?
The GT3 is a more visceral car and if that's what makes it a better Porsche then it is better. It's handling limits and ultimate top speed are higher.
You selling your 40th? I don't blame you for looking at a GT3!
The GT3 is a more visceral car and if that's what makes it a better Porsche then it is better. It's handling limits and ultimate top speed are higher.
You selling your 40th? I don't blame you for looking at a GT3!
09-22-2006, 11:16 AM
#5
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by earlyapex
Better where? On the track? Canyon two laners? Cruising on the freeway?
I haven't decided to sell my 40th..... yet. I'm weighing the pro's and con's of modding my car vs. buying a GT3 vs. buying an older 911 that's fully prepared.
02,
Thanks for your in depth assessment. Based on your comments, it sounds like I'd get more 'bang for my buck' by modding my C2.
I guess I could help myself by deciding whether or not I eventually want to get into club racing. If I knew for sure that I want to race eventually, I wouldn't spend any $'s modding my car and just wait until I'm ready to buy a race car.
Since I'm not sure about racing, I'm weighing the following 2 options:
1) Spend $5k for X74 and control arms
2) Spend $35k to trade up to a GT3
It seems like option 1 offers 50+% of the GT3 benefits for only 20% of the cost. If that's the case, I'm leaning towards option 1 for the short term (1-2 years). Unfortunately, I can't test drive different variants on the track and make a decision based on 1st hand experience.
Last edited by LiveNupe; 09-22-2006 at 01:19 PM.
09-22-2006, 12:30 PM
#6
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LiveNupe,
I am fortunate to have the pleasure of owning three 996 models including a coupe, C4S and the GT3. Most of my driving is to/from the track, on the track and only a limited experience of normal street driving as I prefer to drive less eye catching cars around town. Not to take anyting away from the report of 02Carrera, but my experiences have been much different. My coupe was relatively stock with a compromised alignment and factory aero, the C4S was loaded and had PSS9 suspension with a track alignment while the current GT3 is low optioned with extensive track upgrades (alignment, brakes, gears, LWFW, safety equipment ....).
The GT3 in stock form is much better than either of the two previous Pcars for track driving, and probably much worse in commuter traffic. Much has been written about the differences on this board and I don't feel the need to restate... but if you are looking for a track buggy that you can also use as a daily driver you'll be hard pressed to find something better. You can do all of the mods to your anniversary coupe and likely result in a great car, but it won't match the experience of the GT3. If you would like to drive a 3 on the track, send me a pm and I'll forward my track days for the rest of the year. You are more than welcomed to take mine for a spin.
I am fortunate to have the pleasure of owning three 996 models including a coupe, C4S and the GT3. Most of my driving is to/from the track, on the track and only a limited experience of normal street driving as I prefer to drive less eye catching cars around town. Not to take anyting away from the report of 02Carrera, but my experiences have been much different. My coupe was relatively stock with a compromised alignment and factory aero, the C4S was loaded and had PSS9 suspension with a track alignment while the current GT3 is low optioned with extensive track upgrades (alignment, brakes, gears, LWFW, safety equipment ....).
The GT3 in stock form is much better than either of the two previous Pcars for track driving, and probably much worse in commuter traffic. Much has been written about the differences on this board and I don't feel the need to restate... but if you are looking for a track buggy that you can also use as a daily driver you'll be hard pressed to find something better. You can do all of the mods to your anniversary coupe and likely result in a great car, but it won't match the experience of the GT3. If you would like to drive a 3 on the track, send me a pm and I'll forward my track days for the rest of the year. You are more than welcomed to take mine for a spin.
09-30-2006, 11:49 AM
#7
Nordschleife Master
drive a gt3 and make you mind up. you will never get your money back on a upgraded C2. If you are going to stay on the street stay with the C2 if you track no contest....GT3 you do not see upgraded C2 cup cars
I have had both and my upgraded C2 was not close to the GT3 in any catagory that mattered to me.
GT3 no sunroof, low with the splitter.
The suspension is softer but the chassis is much stiffer. Jack a Gt3 up from the front side and 3 wheels come off the ground.
dry sump - C2 NO
steering is 100% better stock better turn in
power from 6,200 - 8,200 .. well you have to see for yourself
It was the best move I have evern made regarding a car. Since then I have made some upgrades to the GT3 and it only made it better.
I have had both and my upgraded C2 was not close to the GT3 in any catagory that mattered to me.
GT3 no sunroof, low with the splitter.
The suspension is softer but the chassis is much stiffer. Jack a Gt3 up from the front side and 3 wheels come off the ground.
dry sump - C2 NO
steering is 100% better stock better turn in
power from 6,200 - 8,200 .. well you have to see for yourself
It was the best move I have evern made regarding a car. Since then I have made some upgrades to the GT3 and it only made it better.
