Who has gone from a 993 -> a 996?
07-10-2006, 05:50 PM
#31
Chandler!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Rob in WA
Not to make a big deal about 4 hp, but MY99 has 296 hp, MY00 and MY01 have 300.
07-10-2006, 06:10 PM
#33
Originally Posted by bellwilliam
I never understood "character" and "quirks", always thought that is an excuse made up by English / Italian car owners.
anyway, it is not too difficult to put more "character" in your 996.
1. install narrower wheel, and skinnier tires.
2. permanantly disable PSM.
3. permanantly disable heat seater.
4. take out some of freon, so Air won't blow so cold.
5. install smaller sway bar
6. install same size tires all the way around, to create more oversteer.
7. install old 70s SC seats (for more feel on butt)
8. block a couple of vents, so heater also won't work too well.
9. gut the muffler for more character sound.
10. install Pep Boy's audio system, for inferior sound.
11. disable electronic ignition, install points.
12. install carburator instead of fuel injection.
13. take out the carpet insulation.
14. remove sound deadening material.
15. disable keyfob remote
pretty sure there is a lot more to upgrade to better "character"
anyway, it is not too difficult to put more "character" in your 996.
1. install narrower wheel, and skinnier tires.
2. permanantly disable PSM.
3. permanantly disable heat seater.
4. take out some of freon, so Air won't blow so cold.
5. install smaller sway bar
6. install same size tires all the way around, to create more oversteer.
7. install old 70s SC seats (for more feel on butt)
8. block a couple of vents, so heater also won't work too well.
9. gut the muffler for more character sound.
10. install Pep Boy's audio system, for inferior sound.
11. disable electronic ignition, install points.
12. install carburator instead of fuel injection.
13. take out the carpet insulation.
14. remove sound deadening material.
15. disable keyfob remote
pretty sure there is a lot more to upgrade to better "character"
Here's a few more:
#16 disconnect ABS.
#17 Remove 4-piston monoblock calipers and install 2-piston 2-piece calipers.
#18 Remove directionally vented and cross-drilled rotors and install smaller, thinner non-directional non-drilled vented rotors.
#19 Unplug active rear spoiler harness so it does not activate.
#20 Determine way to backgrade/retrofit torsion bars instead of coil springs.
#21 Lockout 6th gear to make it only a 5-speed. For Turbos, lockout 5th and 6th gears to make it only a 4-speed.
#22 Add rain gutters to add drag and wind noise.
#23 Change aero style mirrors to brick style to add wind noise and drag.
#24 Lower compression 2-3 points to reduce power and improve knock resistance.
#25 On turbos, remove twin turbos and install much less efficient lower flowing single turbo with unequal exhaust distribution to increase turbo lag.
Last edited by 10 GT3; 07-10-2006 at 06:35 PM.
07-10-2006, 08:20 PM
#35
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by 02 Carrera
My 996 has neither #3 (seat heaters) or #2 (PSM). Both were options. #4 should be more than just let freon out. It should include blocking off 90% of the vents and not being able to run the fan at more than 4 bars. Being lucky enough to find a car without PSM saves me the time from having to turn it off all the time.
Here's a few more:
#16 disconnect ABS.
#17 Remove 4-piston monoblock calipers and install 2-piston 2-piece calipers.
#18 Remove directionally vented and cross-drilled rotors and install smaller, thinner non-directional non-drilled vented rotors.
#19 Unplug active rear spoiler harness so it does not activate.
#20 Determine way to backgrade/retrofit torsion bars instead of coil springs.
#21 Lockout 6th gear to make it only a 5-speed. For Turbos, lockout 5th and 6th gears to make it only a 4-speed.
#22 Add rain gutters to add drag and wind noise.
#23 Change aero style mirrors to brick style to add wind noise and drag.
#24 Lower compression 2-3 points to reduce power and improve knock resistance.
#25 On turbos, remove twin turbos and install much less efficient lower flowing single turbo with unequal exhaust distribution to increase turbo lag.
Here's a few more:
#16 disconnect ABS.
#17 Remove 4-piston monoblock calipers and install 2-piston 2-piece calipers.
#18 Remove directionally vented and cross-drilled rotors and install smaller, thinner non-directional non-drilled vented rotors.
#19 Unplug active rear spoiler harness so it does not activate.
#20 Determine way to backgrade/retrofit torsion bars instead of coil springs.
#21 Lockout 6th gear to make it only a 5-speed. For Turbos, lockout 5th and 6th gears to make it only a 4-speed.
#22 Add rain gutters to add drag and wind noise.
#23 Change aero style mirrors to brick style to add wind noise and drag.
#24 Lower compression 2-3 points to reduce power and improve knock resistance.
#25 On turbos, remove twin turbos and install much less efficient lower flowing single turbo with unequal exhaust distribution to increase turbo lag.
the market seems to like rain gutters and such...
come on guys, lets not start the 993 vs. 996 thing
07-10-2006, 09:00 PM
#36
Chandler!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by mrsullivan
yet, 8-10 yr old 993s prices equal or exceed 996 prices all the way through 2004 (sans CGT, GT2, GT3, turbo)...
the market seems to like rain gutters and such...
come on guys, lets not start the 993 vs. 996 thing
the market seems to like rain gutters and such...
come on guys, lets not start the 993 vs. 996 thing
07-10-2006, 09:49 PM
#37
Ironman 140.6
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by rcg412
I think a lot of the changes on airflow went into effect on the 2001 - but werent very publicized... I could be wrong... The cupholders are a joke on any 911, but i actually think the 01 and before is better. Dont get me wrong, the -02+ are better evolved... as is an 00 over a 99. . . .But i would avoid any 911 with a new engine design. Lastly, the 10K premium is not worth it... if you are going to get an 02+, do an 03...
Generally, the years to get are 01, 03 and 04 (Best one).
Generally, the years to get are 01, 03 and 04 (Best one).
In addition to better aero with reduced lift, the Mk II frame is 20% stiffer. The new engine makes more power and more torque at a lower rpm. The 3.6 is also more efficient and offers a slightly better EPA mileage rating.
07-10-2006, 09:51 PM
#38
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by mrsullivan
yet, 8-10 yr old 993s prices equal or exceed 996 prices all the way through 2004 (sans CGT, GT2, GT3, turbo)...
the market seems to like rain gutters and such...
come on guys, lets not start the 993 vs. 996 thing
the market seems to like rain gutters and such...
come on guys, lets not start the 993 vs. 996 thing
07-11-2006, 02:37 AM
#39
Banned
Originally Posted by 02 Carrera
I don't have a 993, but I still have my 79' 911 S/C I have owned for 4 years longer than my 996. I have to laugh at the comments about the 996 being cheaper than the 993. The 993 uses essentially the same dash, door panels, pulls and pockets as the 70's 911's. Everytime I sit in one, I feel just like I am in my old S/C. Yes there are airbags and the shifter is a lot different, but not much else. Opening the door, it looks like a 20 year old car. From being in several 993's, there are several things that feel cheap compared to a 996 and amazes me that Porsche did nothing to improve in 20 years. The arm rest are cheap and break easily. The arm rest doors have always been something of the quality of JC Whitney. I love how they never fit evenly. How about those door closers where to extend them too far and they break out of the door? How about the dash that is not sealed and uses some rubber rings to stick VDO gauges in? How about the cheap random placement of the mirror toggle, sunroof switch and fog lights? How about the cheap speaker grills that look like they came from Kraco? Look at how the trunks are lined. Which looks cheaper? Yes, there is more plastic in a 996'; but the quality of the plastic is far better and more integrated than those of yore. The door handles now feel solid, the sunroof, fog lights, mirror and window switches are finally in a good location. There is a floor and no floorboards. Finally, the pedal pivot from the top (like every other car today) rather than from the bottom.
The other side, is don't expect a 996 to feel like a 993 or earlier from the drivers seat. Older 911's are more raw. Lots of steering feel and kickback. The steering is more isolated and slower in a 996. All the chopiness is gone. There is a lot more grip to work with all the time. The chassis reacts very differently. It doesn't have that feeling that it is pivoting on the inside rear tire in a turn. There is a lot more influence for the front tires. The back end no longer steps out. You can lift off in a corner without fear of spinning and you can brake much later in a corner. There isn't a huge increase in the early 996's from your 993, but in the 02'+ there is a lot more torque to work with from 2500+. I can't say if you will like a 996 or not. If you want more stability, comfort, grip and power then you may like a 996. If you are expecting it to have all the raw elements that have made 911's fun, you may be disappointed.
The other side, is don't expect a 996 to feel like a 993 or earlier from the drivers seat. Older 911's are more raw. Lots of steering feel and kickback. The steering is more isolated and slower in a 996. All the chopiness is gone. There is a lot more grip to work with all the time. The chassis reacts very differently. It doesn't have that feeling that it is pivoting on the inside rear tire in a turn. There is a lot more influence for the front tires. The back end no longer steps out. You can lift off in a corner without fear of spinning and you can brake much later in a corner. There isn't a huge increase in the early 996's from your 993, but in the 02'+ there is a lot more torque to work with from 2500+. I can't say if you will like a 996 or not. If you want more stability, comfort, grip and power then you may like a 996. If you are expecting it to have all the raw elements that have made 911's fun, you may be disappointed.
07-11-2006, 02:50 AM
#40
Banned
it's a tough call. i think given the author's financial transfer desires, i would encourage his bid to move from the 993 to 996 + cash though i highly doubt he's going to find a good to mint 996 at $30K. that's going to be a relatively high mileage 996 with a few options.
now not putting the $ thing into this here's how i see it:
-993 S is the better looking car, though i will say i absolutely love the 996 '99-'01 with the GT3 aerokit
-993 is dry sump for whatever that's worth (correct me if i'm wrong)... the 996 is an RMS roulette
-probably due to production numbers but there are a lot of junk 996s i see rolling around than i do 993s narrowbody or widebody
-if you live in a fair climate say for example seattle, the 993 can be a fine daily driver. but if you're stuck in LA traffic, def would leave it up to the 996 to do the 405 battle
-996 is the better performing car, but the 993, again, has the romance .. analogy i use is living in the suburbs with the bigger house, more land, more amentities nearby... v. living closer to the city... smaller house, less land, poorer road conditions, smaller garage or no garage etc, diverse, eclectic blah blah (996 to 993)
now not putting the $ thing into this here's how i see it:
-993 S is the better looking car, though i will say i absolutely love the 996 '99-'01 with the GT3 aerokit
-993 is dry sump for whatever that's worth (correct me if i'm wrong)... the 996 is an RMS roulette
-probably due to production numbers but there are a lot of junk 996s i see rolling around than i do 993s narrowbody or widebody
-if you live in a fair climate say for example seattle, the 993 can be a fine daily driver. but if you're stuck in LA traffic, def would leave it up to the 996 to do the 405 battle
-996 is the better performing car, but the 993, again, has the romance .. analogy i use is living in the suburbs with the bigger house, more land, more amentities nearby... v. living closer to the city... smaller house, less land, poorer road conditions, smaller garage or no garage etc, diverse, eclectic blah blah (996 to 993)
07-11-2006, 03:22 AM
#41
Pro
Thread Starter
Benjamin, thanks for your thoughts. What you've said about the 993S is true. It has a collectability factor that I can appreciate, but don't necessarily want to be the long term caretaker. I bought this car at a very good price so I can sell and break even. The 996 I buy doesn't have to be perfect because it will be 80% DD for me and will get the bumps and bruises of Dallas life. The is an '00 black over gray with 50K mils, sport seats and wheels FS here on Rennlist for $32K. If I had the 993 sold, I'd buy this car if it checked out. Point is, the 996 is the bargain of the century right now, but may not be forever. I watched the 964 drop and rebound, then the 993 did the same thing. In 6-12 months the 996 values may be rising again.
07-11-2006, 03:45 AM
#42
Banned
Originally Posted by Mark Wilson
Benjamin, thanks for your thoughts. What you've said about the 993S is true. It has a collectability factor that I can appreciate, but don't necessarily want to be the long term caretaker. I bought this car at a very good price so I can sell and break even. The 996 I buy doesn't have to be perfect because it will be 80% DD for me and will get the bumps and bruises of Dallas life. The is an '00 black over gray with 50K mils, sport seats and wheels FS here on Rennlist for $32K. If I had the 993 sold, I'd buy this car if it checked out. Point is, the 996 is the bargain of the century right now, but may not be forever. I watched the 964 drop and rebound, then the 993 did the same thing. In 6-12 months the 996 values may be rising again.
my bet would be that the 996 will not rebound anytime soon like the 964... because again, it's the mass produced plastic age thing that people put around the 996's neck. i think we will see the continued decline in value of the 996 with little to no hope for any sort of rebound... but i have a feeling the 996 aeros will do much better... esp the aeros optioned out from the factory.
cheers,
Ben
07-11-2006, 05:21 AM
#43
Drifting
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I don't know about PET Catalogues but all other news sources indicate that the '99's are rated at 296 hp and the '00's and '01 are rated at 300hp so it's an understandable mistake, I guess.
Also, I'd like to note that the reason behind the price differences of a 993 vs 996 has nothing to do with quality. It's all to do about an end of an era, ei., no more Air Cooled Porsche's. If the 996 and 997's were still Air Cooled the 993 would be worth pennies..
Also, I'd like to note that the reason behind the price differences of a 993 vs 996 has nothing to do with quality. It's all to do about an end of an era, ei., no more Air Cooled Porsche's. If the 996 and 997's were still Air Cooled the 993 would be worth pennies..
Originally Posted by Kevin H. in Atl..
Some interesting reading from the 996 and 997 PET Catalogues:
98-00 model year 3.4's are rated at 220kw, which = 299.12hp DIN, 295.02hp SAE.
01 model year 3.4 is rated at 221kw, which = 300.48hp DIN, 296.37hp SAE.
So there was only a 1.36hp DIN difference between the earliest 3.4 and the latest.
Seems PCNA marketed the early 996's with SAE ratings and the later 996's with DIN ratings. PCNA also frequently uses 0-60 times for some cars and 0-62mph (100kph) times for others, creating confusion, as for a car in the low 5 sec range, the difference between the two is about .2sec. For a car in the upper 5sec range, the difference is about .3sec, which, when bench racing, seems like a lot.
Also interesting is that the '02 3.6L is rated at 232kw, which = 315.43hp DIN, 311.12hp SAE,
and the '03-'05 (yes, '05 997) 3.6L's are all rated at 235kw, which = 319.51hp DIN, 315.14SAE.
FWIW, the 997 3.8 is rated at 261kw, which = 354.86hp DIN, 350.01hp SAE.
I've also noticed that some publications listed the 996Turbo as 420hp, some as 415hp. This also is the difference in the DIN and SAE rating for that engine.
YMMV, of course.
98-00 model year 3.4's are rated at 220kw, which = 299.12hp DIN, 295.02hp SAE.
01 model year 3.4 is rated at 221kw, which = 300.48hp DIN, 296.37hp SAE.
So there was only a 1.36hp DIN difference between the earliest 3.4 and the latest.
Seems PCNA marketed the early 996's with SAE ratings and the later 996's with DIN ratings. PCNA also frequently uses 0-60 times for some cars and 0-62mph (100kph) times for others, creating confusion, as for a car in the low 5 sec range, the difference between the two is about .2sec. For a car in the upper 5sec range, the difference is about .3sec, which, when bench racing, seems like a lot.
Also interesting is that the '02 3.6L is rated at 232kw, which = 315.43hp DIN, 311.12hp SAE,
and the '03-'05 (yes, '05 997) 3.6L's are all rated at 235kw, which = 319.51hp DIN, 315.14SAE.
FWIW, the 997 3.8 is rated at 261kw, which = 354.86hp DIN, 350.01hp SAE.
I've also noticed that some publications listed the 996Turbo as 420hp, some as 415hp. This also is the difference in the DIN and SAE rating for that engine.
YMMV, of course.
07-11-2006, 10:02 AM
#44
Originally Posted by washington dc porsche
I don't know about PET Catalogues but all other news sources indicate that the '99's are rated at 296 hp and the '00's and '01 are rated at 300hp so it's an understandable mistake, I guess.
However, the PET Catalogue is a Porsche factory publication and should be accurate, but very well may contain errors as well, such as the 997 3.6L rating of 235kw. PAG's German site lists it at 239kw (325 PS). Perhaps the version of the PET Catologue for the 997 I have may have been released prior to final engine specs.
As for PCNA, often they are simply not as accurate with some of their spec data as they could be.
And many publications don't bother to identify which conversion from KW they are publishing (DIN or SAE) although some do, and then still get it wrong. For example, in R&T's current August issue, in their comparison test of the new RS4 and 997 C4S, they indicate their HP ratings as SAE, but with an asterisk for the Audi indicating it's rating is DIN. However, they list the C4S at 355hp (SAE), which is at odds with the factory KW rating and PAG's German site. These publications often have typo after typo, and I wouldn't be surprised if that asterisk hadn't supposed to have been on the 997 rating rather than the Audi's rating.
YMMV, of course.
07-11-2006, 02:43 PM
#45
Originally Posted by mrsullivan
yet, 8-10 yr old 993s prices equal or exceed 996 prices all the way through 2004 (sans CGT, GT2, GT3, turbo)...
the market seems to like rain gutters and such...
come on guys, lets not start the 993 vs. 996 thing
the market seems to like rain gutters and such...
come on guys, lets not start the 993 vs. 996 thing