race with M3/speeding arrest question

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05-06-2003, 02:05 PM

#16

ruey220

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />Great, but shouldn't the base 911 beat sports cars priced tens of thousands cheaper? Is there currently another sports car (M3, M5, E55, C32, Jag R, corvette base, Z06, Viper, S4, CTS-V etc.) above $35,000 with less power than a Porsche?<hr /></blockquote>I used to think the same thing about your comment, but then when you consider the market porsche is selling 996's to, it compares to SC430's, SL500's, or previously with BMW, they had 850's, but now they nolonger have the 2 door 80k car.

Porsche isn't trying to prove that their king of the road with the normal production 911, if you want the fast ones, get a GT3 or TT. 911 is still ahead of their category if you compare it to the cars they are really competing with. I got my 996 because although its not fast on the road, it is trackable immediately out of the box yet 100% streetable. Any of the other cars you mentioned above will either need some sort of mod to be tracked properly, or if it is trackable from the box, is a crappy ride on the street...i.e. viper/corvette.

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05-06-2003, 02:17 PM

#17

KJM3SMG

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Hi guys, this is my first post here in this forum. I would like to first say I love Porsches! I think they are one of the best looking cars on the road, as well as the best handling. I want one badly! :-)

That said I came here because someone pointed me to this thread (another 911 owner). He has a sweet looking 911 with aero kit, roll bar, etc.

Anyway, just wanted to say hello and also respond to SMG questions. I have a 2002 M3 SMG, which I got in Aug.02 and I have about 8k miles. Anyway, someone made a comment about the driver being really good to beat the 911 driver. But the point of the SMG is flawless shifts.. so that it's faster than human. 1800 milliseconds I believe for avg. human, while Ferrari's F1 got it down to 800ms, BMW's SMG II (2nd iteration) got it at an even miniscule 80ms. So the shifts are precise and fast.

There's also a launch control that does optimum launch without wheelspin.. it's a highly advanced system which they got from their experience on their BMW F1 Williams racing team.

Anyway, just wanted to clarify that little point.

Enjoy your cars but yes drive safe! I am going to a track to do more outrageous moves but on highway I've only done 125 on a deserted 4 lane highway at like 3 in the morning. Radar detectors are illegal in VA so I'm very careful.

BTW, are images disabled in this forum? I even used UBB code. :-(

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05-06-2003, 05:43 PM

#18

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Ruey,
Come on man you're telling me that Porsche competes more closely with SL500, SC430 than a Z06, M3 or Viper. I find that hard to believe. Maybe you could say SL55 but that's unfair because the SL would pull away laughing from a stock C4S. Porsches are sports cars; people buy them because of their sportiness. If what you say is true and BMW 850, SC430 and SL500 owners are looking at Porsche than were in big trouble because they kill Porsche on creature comforts. Clearly Porsche is not trying to compete as a Grand Tourer. Porsche competes as a pure sports car and they do an excellent job. Except one small failure, POWER. Remember I'm talking about $75,000-$100,000 996's.

I would absolutely die laughing if someone were to tell me that they are really torn, they can't decide between a 996 and an SC430 (it's like saying I can't decide between a Range Rover and a boat)!!!!

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05-06-2003, 11:14 PM

#19

ruey220

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caneaddict,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Come on man you're telling me that Porsche competes more closely with SL500, SC430 than a Z06, M3 or Viper
<hr /></blockquote>Yes I do...when you say compete, I am talking about buying market and potential new car owners. Used car market is a different story as this is a market that is price or money conscious and cannot afford the car at retail so they compare a old porsche 996 C2 for $50k to a new M3 $50k for example.

Porsche focuses on people who buy their cars new, not old as this is where they make money. Porsche focuses
#1 on the price market they wish to target, then
#2 focuses on what they will do to lure that market to consider the car over cars priced in that same range.

I bought 7 new cars in the last 4 years, and never did I buy used so I know how the new car buying process works, also to be reassured by knowing firsthand several owners of new and used car dealerships in my area who can explain how the market operates.

The price is set at comparable range as the cars I mentioned and majority who has 80k to buy a car considers their preferences and makes the decision. I'm almost certain that anyone who walked into a Porsche dealership looking at new 996's never compared them to another new car in a range 1/2 the porsche's price. (when was the last time you compared a rolex to a seiko?? I was comparing a Patek to a rolex when I bought a watch a while back.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Porsches are sports cars; people buy them because of their sportiness.
<hr /></blockquote>you prove my point, but first they look at what they can afford, then look at the qualities they prefer. so it goes back to my comparison, people would say, I want to spend $80k on a car, then they would compare what they can get for at that price.

Money is the overall deciding factor in most cases as not everyone has unlimited budgets and deep pockets. If this was not the case, then all porsche 996 owners would have TT's as they're pretty much the same car inside and out, but only faster and costlier.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Maybe you could say SL55 but that's unfair because the SL would pull away laughing from a stock C4S
<hr /></blockquote>You're comparing a $125k vs. a $80k car. The SL55 goes against the 996TT which is why I say the SL500 would go against a 996 C2 either cab or coupe as it is now a hardtop/cab. My father recently purchased a SL55 for $140k as his budget was around $150k for a daily driver. In the buying process, he had one of his PA's check the market for similar cars in that price range as he knows jack lemons about cars like 75% of car buyers today.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I would absolutely die laughing if someone were to tell me that they are really torn, they can't decide between a 996 and an SC430 (it's like saying I can't decide between a Range Rover and a boat)!!!! <hr /></blockquote>I guess you don't really know much people who have purchased NEW cars worth $80k-120k as you haven't died laughing yet. If most new car buyer's are the same as used car buyers, why aren't there people buying used 2000 996TT's vs. a new 2003 fully loaded C2? You can find a used 996TT on ebay for around $90k, but there is still a large majority of the market buying new cars for the same price 996tt's are going for used.

New car buyers are completely in a different market. I myself, refused to buy used, as I rather buy a new car with clean history, vs. a used car that someone could have been having orgy's inside.

Speaking of range rovers, my brother recently purchased one for $85k, I'm sure he was comparing it to a $50k Cadillac Escalade or hummer h2?
Not really, he looked at SUV's in the 80k range, looked at G500's, Cayenne Turbo and Hummer H1, then decided what he liked best.

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05-07-2003, 12:38 AM

#20

Pete.

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ruey220:
 why aren't there people buying used 2000 996TT's vs. a new 2003 fully loaded C2? <hr /></blockquote>Because there is no such thing as a 2000 996TT.

Simple.

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05-07-2003, 01:19 AM

#21

caneaddict

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Ruey
First off I have owned many many $80,000-$200,000 cars and most of my friends own the same type of cars. I can't believe you are serious that people you know sit around comparing SC430's to Porsche's. Anyone who is seriously considering that type of car probably would not be happy with a Porsche as a daily driver.

I agree with you that someone looking to spend $90,000 isn't going to buy an M3. However shouldn't he be able to beat an M3. I mean theoretically he's paying more to get better performance.

There are different types of buyers. The ones that give up creature comforts for the sportiness of a Porsche do so because of how much they value that sportiness. Trust me, while it isn't often discussed in Porsche circles I know many 996 owners who are pissed knowing that when they pull next to a Z06 on the street or track they will get creamed and they certainly don't like seeing a smug teenager in an M3 pulling right along with them.

Using your logic the Carrera GT will be competing with Rolls Royce, Bentleys and Maybachs since those are the only cars in its price range; the Veyron and F60 (after broker mark up) cost over twice as much and the SLR costs 30-40% less.

By the way I recently sold a 2003 RR for an H2.

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05-07-2003, 01:25 AM

#22

caneaddict

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Oh and I don't really understand your whole new car vs used car thing. I am simply talking about new cars.

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05-07-2003, 03:33 AM

#23

ruey220

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />
First off I have owned many many $80,000-$200,000 cars and most of my friends own the same type of cars.<hr /></blockquote>You and your friends know plenty about cars and are deeply involved with them otherwise you wouldn't be spending so much with them. Okay, maybe you're right about the SC430 as after doing a bit of research it is still in a much lower bracket than the 996s and falls in the M3 category.

However, I still stand behind my argument that a new car buyer who knows nothing and is in the price range for a 996 would also look at cars such as the sl500, xkr, etc. a few friends in the car business gave me an idea of the buying process as I almost was an investor in one franchise.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Oh and I don't really understand your whole new car vs used car thing. I am simply talking about new cars. <hr /></blockquote>for the sake of argument, i'm just limiting the discussion and comparison to new car buyer and how one thinks. You have to remember that a majority of car buyer's know less than you as a car enthusiast, and a small fraction reads message boards like Rennlist or are PCA members. with this in mind, the typical new car buying process is somwhat simple as:

#1) budget i want a luxury car within my budget of $80k or so

#2) type of car I want a two door car that looks sporty, consider how much space, etc.

with this in mind, the average joe would probably look at the cars that I mention. This also explains why we see so many porsche drivers these days that cannot even tell a fake GT3 from a real one. In the end though, you are right that if compared closely, the cars mentioned have large differences obvious enough to be a quick deciding factor for which one to buy.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
However shouldn't he be able to beat an M3. I mean theoretically he's paying more to get better performance.
<hr /></blockquote>I still argue the regular 996's are targeted just for those looking for a nice $80k range car that has some power when needed, not for head to head racing. Porsche actually sacrificed performance factor for comfort to satisfy iffy 996 potential buyers. like why the heck did porsche start putting optional wood in the 996's???? (porsche just wants to sell cars and make money)

This has kept my insecurity level for lack of power with the 996 in check with regards to M3... I think to myself, if I had an SL500, would I care if they could smoke me? No, because it is in a different category.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
By the way I recently sold a 2003 RR for an H2.
<hr /></blockquote>I'm just curious why you chose the H2 over the RR? I heard its like driving an armored truck, nothing wrong if you like it, you have your reasons. We tested both, and the only thing about the H2 we found appealing is the looks. Granted, the RR is really like a X5 with different body panels.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Because there is no such thing as a 2000 996TT.
<hr /></blockquote>my mistake...i was confused because i took delivery for my 996 in 2000 and my dealer was trying to sell me an order for the new TT when they first took placements. This was in 2000 and I thought it was a 2000 model, but probably a 2001.

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05-07-2003, 11:17 AM

#24

KJM3SMG

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hi again,

Noone really cares if M3 beats a 911. Many M3 guys wouldn't mind owning a 911 just because it's great looking and it's a Porsche.

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05-07-2003, 12:01 PM

#25

LSM

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ruey220:
caneaddict,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Come on man you're telling me that Porsche competes more closely with SL500, SC430 than a Z06, M3 or Viper
<hr /></blockquote>Yes I do...when you say compete, I am talking about buying market and potential new car owners. Used car market is a different story as this is a market that is price or money conscious and cannot afford the car at retail so they compare a old porsche 996 C2 for $50k to a new M3 $50k for example.

Porsche focuses on people who buy their cars new, not old as this is where they make money. Porsche focuses
#1 on the price market they wish to target, then
#2 focuses on what they will do to lure that market to consider the car over cars priced in that same range.

I bought 7 new cars in the last 4 years, and never did I buy used so I know how the new car buying process works, also to be reassured by knowing firsthand several owners of new and used car dealerships in my area who can explain how the market operates.

The price is set at comparable range as the cars I mentioned and majority who has 80k to buy a car considers their preferences and makes the decision. I'm almost certain that anyone who walked into a Porsche dealership looking at new 996's never compared them to another new car in a range 1/2 the porsche's price. (when was the last time you compared a rolex to a seiko?? I was comparing a Patek to a rolex when I bought a watch a while back.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Porsches are sports cars; people buy them because of their sportiness.
<hr /></blockquote>you prove my point, but first they look at what they can afford, then look at the qualities they prefer. so it goes back to my comparison, people would say, I want to spend $80k on a car, then they would compare what they can get for at that price.

Money is the overall deciding factor in most cases as not everyone has unlimited budgets and deep pockets. If this was not the case, then all porsche 996 owners would have TT's as they're pretty much the same car inside and out, but only faster and costlier.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Maybe you could say SL55 but that's unfair because the SL would pull away laughing from a stock C4S
<hr /></blockquote>You're comparing a $125k vs. a $80k car. The SL55 goes against the 996TT which is why I say the SL500 would go against a 996 C2 either cab or coupe as it is now a hardtop/cab. My father recently purchased a SL55 for $140k as his budget was around $150k for a daily driver. In the buying process, he had one of his PA's check the market for similar cars in that price range as he knows jack lemons about cars like 75% of car buyers today.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I would absolutely die laughing if someone were to tell me that they are really torn, they can't decide between a 996 and an SC430 (it's like saying I can't decide between a Range Rover and a boat)!!!! <hr /></blockquote>I guess you don't really know much people who have purchased NEW cars worth $80k-120k as you haven't died laughing yet. If most new car buyer's are the same as used car buyers, why aren't there people buying used 2000 996TT's vs. a new 2003 fully loaded C2? You can find a used 996TT on ebay for around $90k, but there is still a large majority of the market buying new cars for the same price 996tt's are going for used.

New car buyers are completely in a different market. I myself, refused to buy used, as I rather buy a new car with clean history, vs. a used car that someone could have been having orgy's inside.

Speaking of range rovers, my brother recently purchased one for $85k, I'm sure he was comparing it to a $50k Cadillac Escalade or hummer h2?
Not really, he looked at SUV's in the 80k range, looked at G500's, Cayenne Turbo and Hummer H1, then decided what he liked best.<hr /></blockquote>I tend to agree with you on your point about "I have $80k to spend, what can I get" but, I have bought at least 7 cars in the last 4 years and I like to think I have some experience myself. When I want to spend $80k on a sports cart or Porsche, am I cross shopping sl500 or sc430??? Not a chance in hell. That is crazy IMHO. I do not see Porsche owners cross shopping thoses types of cars.

-Lou

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05-07-2003, 12:06 PM

#26

LSM

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05-07-2003, 12:39 PM

#27

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Hey Ruey
I sold my RR for the H2 for looks alone. Actually I think the Rover is a far superior product but I live in Miami so I'm really only buying SUV's for looks anyway. I would never sacrifice quality or speed in a sports car purely for looks but SUV's are SUV's in my book!

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05-07-2003, 01:45 PM

#28

Trojan Man

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I am not a mathematician, but I did a sort of calculation:

If you are travelling at approx 140-160MPH and the cop is parked in a 239HP Police Interceptor with the engine on, but gear in park and NOT using radar (ie. doing paperwork), you could theoretically exit at the next exit (assuming it was within 1/2 mile or less) and duck into a residential street or other location where you could not be found before he even starts to catch up.

OK this is a little far fetched, but it might work!

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05-07-2003, 04:28 PM

#29

GTOne

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I just got a 92mph ticket from a very nice cop in Mississippi (I love spelling that word).

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05-07-2003, 05:09 PM

#30

caneaddict

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Trojan funny you should mention that. Last spring I was going about 90 in a 45. I suddenly see a parked cop on the opposite side of the road turn his lights on and start pulling out. By the time he got out onto the road in my direction I had pulled into a neighborhood and flew around a bunch of turns to lose him. Man I know it was silly but that was SUCH a rush. I actually out ran a cop. I think everyone has dreamed of outrunning a cop. Granted it wasn't a 100 mile 180mph chase but it felt great nonetheless.

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