Huzurdd

I have an entire Row Euro M030 suspension. But I currently have H&R's on O.E non sport U.S. suspension. I only have about 50miles on the H&R. Should I use them with the Row Euro M030??? Or just use the Row Euro M030 springs my kit came with??? Is there a difference in spring rate or ride height??
Thanks in advance!

TT Gasman

You could use the H&Rs with the RoW 030 shocks. Would probably be a good setup. Sort of like the "-30" option in europe, but I'm not sure about this- someone may know the answer. The ride height difference btwn Row 030 and H&R is 10mm in front (RoW drops car 20mm, H&R 30mm) and 20mm rear (RoW drops car 10mm and H&R 30mm). I've heard the RoW 030 is a little stiffer than H&R, maybe because the rear spring on the H&R is progressive in design. Let us know how the car handles. Why are you changing from H&Rs ?
Doug

Huzurdd

I'm changing because the car has no shock travel with standard US shocks. This is especially evident at freeway speeds where the car settles down due to air pressure. When you hit a bump the car does a rocking front to back motion. This is a clear indication that H&R with stock shocks is a poor compromise. The Euro M030 Tequipment package was cheaper to purchase than just the shocks alone. Now I have two sets of springs.

question: I have two different color coded M030 springs for the front. One has a white dot on one of the top coils and a white dot with a green dot on the lower coil. The other is opposite, a green dot on top and a white with green on bottom. Are these specific to left and right for the front????

BretC in SD - 996C2

It is very important that the springs be matched well with the shocks. I currently have the your same set up (US stock shocks with H&R springs) and they are a bit of a mismatch with each other. I takes a couple of hops before taking a final set on hard turn-ins, and tends to hop a little under heavy breaking. So all else being equal, go with the shock/spring combo that has been well matched and tested together by an OEM.

And it's a matter of opinion, but I don't think the 030 set up is anywhere near too firm for the streets.

Bret

Huzurdd

Ok, installed the euro M030 shocks and springs last night. The ride quality is like night and day. Its a lot more comfortable than the standard US shocks with H&R. Although I must admit the linear rate springs in the rear are a little stiffer over the bumps. But the car doesn't bounce around like before with the US/H&R. Whcih was jaring in amoung itself. The car sits higher as well. But I think I will give it a few days to see where it settles down to.

The rear M030 springs are a shorter length (free length) than the H&R but do have a little thicker coils. I decided on these because I figured I would get more spring travel since the progressive coils on the H&R would bind up quickly due to the short gap between the coils.

The front coils were about the same length.

Also to clear up things you get the same camber adjustment. The camber adjustment is on the shock tower of the car. The mounting holes are slotted so you can move it toward the inside of the car (more camber) or toward the outside (less camber). There is no adjustment on the shock. Only other factor is ride height. The lower the car the more camber. There is not a similar adjustment on the rear shock tower. The suspension is adjustable. I haven't messed with the rear adjustment so I'm not sure what is adjustable and how much adjustment can be made. I'll check it out when I get the car aligned.

TT Gasman

Huzurdd,
Did you install the components yourself? I've been wondering if it is a possible DIY project.
TIA
Doug

Huzurdd

Yes, I used to work at a high end perf. shop years ago and carried a SAE cert. I didn't like getting dirty for anyone elso but myself. I now do engineering/networking for ATT.

The install is very straight forward if you have average mechanical skills.

rdmdruss

I converted my 996 to RoW M030 suspension from USA M030 last January and was so impressed with the difference that I ended up writing a whole article for EXCELLENCE on this conversion. We actually measured and tested (thanks to Bilstein & others) the spring lengths, rates, etc. and conducted shock dyno runs on USA STD & M030 as well as the RoW (Euro) M030 for a C2 6-speed coupe. Excel charts and tables will appear in the article clarifying everything and the spring and shock color codes are also revealed. Note that all of this is a very complex suject but the bottom line for a few of the questions in this thread is that the OEM springs are essentially linear with the USA STD fronts 146 lbs/inch and the rears 203 lbs/inch while both the USA & RoW M030 fronts/rears have rates of 170/260 lbs/inch although there are length differences which result in about a 1 cm lower ride height for the RoW. Note that this must always be measured with a full gas tank because there can be more than 6-7 mm variance in the front. These rates compare to the progressive H&R's front/rear of 180-240/250-295 (Part #902944) and 170-210/230-260 (Part # 902945). As for the shock dyno runs, the usual specs are quoted in decanewtons (rebound/compression) @ a piston shaft velocity of 0.5 meters/sec so here goes: USA STD 185/73, USA M030 (Sport) 146/63, RoW M030 170/80 for the fronts and 180/132, 227/132, 245/152 respectively for the rears. These values are surprising but probably relate to compromises in ride quality, etc. as discussed in the article. Note also that the specs at a PSV of 0.5 m/s don't tell the whole story and as can be seen in the Excel charts of the dyno runs there are many other differences in low and high speed PSV's so it really is not a good idea to look at just the usual specs at 0.5 m/s. There are also difference in the various springs and shocks depending of C2 vs. C4, Tip vs. 6-speed and Euro vs. USA. All of this is embedded in the color codes but the bottom line is don't mix and match this stuff...it's all made to work together and I certainly wouldn't put any OEM stuff on in combination with aftermarket stuff because you don't really know objectively what you've got. BTW, the green and white dots at the tops of the springs are just "tolerance groups" with the green springs on average 3-4 mm shorter than the white ones so you should use the same tolerance group springs on each axle but it's OK to have white front/green rear. There are also "compensator disks" that keep the car at the appropriate height in this situation with the "green" compensators thicker than the "white". See the article for more detail on this. We also tested the spring rates of the bumpstops which are very important especially on the lowered M030 suspension since these come into play after only 6 mm of compression in the front! The front bumpstop is the same for all markets while there are rear standard and sport bumpstops that are also the same for all markets. The article should appear in the May, 2002 issue of EXCELLENCE. I say "should" because after initial great enthusiasm for publishing the article, the editor Pete Stout is waffling a little. I think he is worried that the article is too technical or that there may not be enough general interest amongst his readers. I won't say to contact Pete about this because I certainly wouldn't want him to be inundated with e-mails, phone calls and letters. I'm pretty sure PANO would like to have the article if Pete ultimately decides against publishing the article but I hope things work out with EXCELLENCE. Happy New Year to everyone!

Huzurdd

You have me jumping up and down reading your reply! This is good stuff and I'm sure it has outstanding validity to be published. This is all the info one needs to make an informed decision on swaping out for new suspension.

One question please:
The front euro M030 springs both had white and green dots on the lower coils. But the upper coil on one had a white dot and the other a green. Is this OKAY?????

Martin S.

Just a very minor post script to RDMDRUSS reply above, you will not find any greater detail than what he has provided. I had the opportunity to preview the article in its expanded version. It is worth waiting for, whether it comes out in Pano or Excellence. The author did his homework. I have read several of RDMDRUSS articles in the past. They are the benchmark for Porsche Technical articles, in my humble opinion. Thanks RDMDRUSS for taking the time to research the topic. Now can you do a similar article on 993 suspension?

rdmdruss

With regard to Huzurdd's question above, no it is not OK to mix spring tolerance groups on the same axle and whoever sold those springs to him either doesn't understand the color codes or is trying to hose him. As stated in my other post above, the green tolerance group is 3-4 mm shorter on average than the white tolerance group although per our measurements, this can vary a bit more since on one set we measured had a variance of 5 mm in height green vs. white. Huzardd could put different "compensator disks" on the same axle but this is not recommended by Porsche. It IS OK to have green tolerance group springs rear and white front or vice versa with the appropriate compensator disks. The two lower colored paint stripes translate to part #'s. Huzardd has green/white springs which are the RoW (M030) sport springs. BTW, thanks to schacht993 for the compliment above.

TT Gasman

rdmdruss, thanks again for the detailed responses. Are the "compensator disks" readily available? I'm having my RoW 030 installed this week at the dealer, they should have these in stock. FWIW I have green group front and white group rears, should be a reasonable combo.
So overall you seem quite pleased with the RoW conversion, now that you have had it for a while what are your impressions?
TIA
Doug
'00 C2 6 speed

Huzurdd

Thank you rdmdruss for your reply. I feel perhaps we all should elect you to Porsche Technical "Guru" status Your understanding of the subject is remarkable!! You really do your homework, I give you an A+++ And look forward to more of your posts. Thanks again...

As far as the getting the wrong springs go. The supplier has offered to send new replacement springs at no cost to me. Hopefully with "green" tolerence group to match my rears. Gert of Carnewal was not aware of the tolerence groups and the suspension was delivered to him as a kit by Porsche. Perhaps my set was an oversight on Porsche behalf.
Gert, is a valued member on this board and is certainly held in high regards by all. I feel this was more of a learning experience if anything. I take no disappointment and look forward to dealing with Gert in the future. He has certainly showed valued customer service. Thumbs up...

*********I would like to address a question to "rdmdruss" On a related note, I am having difficulties with the alignment in the front (left side is set at full negative on the shock tower slots and camber shows as +.3 while the passenger side is set to full positive on the shock tower but camber shows as -1.3)is the cross member adjustable to where I can set it over to correct alignment or is something very wrong. The car only has 12k miles on it and is going to a Porsche dealership wednesday. Any tips on where to look. There is no body damage evident anywere on the car. I have had the body looked over in and out. No overspray or evidence of repair. But I have not put it on a frame rack to check tolerences. The front sway bar was replaced by a shop with the RoW M030 bar. I saw all the braces and part surrounding the sway bar for removal. Could something have been done wrong here???

TT Gasman

rdmdruss or anyone, what do the compensator disks look like ? I may already have them as my kit was shipped from Andial with a pair of 5mm thick bronze disks labelled "Stremel 996.3.00". I just wanted to check it out before the car goes in on Thursday. TIA
Doug

rdmdruss

You guys are determined that I'm going to reproduce my entire 996 M030 suspension article in this forum! In any case, with regard to DJ Hirsch's question on the compensator disks, the fronts are a black rubbery material and the "thin" (3 mm)or "white" compensators have part #996.343.511.00 while the "thick" (6.5 mm) or "green" compensators have a part #996.343.511.01. As for the rear compensators, these are black plastic. The greens (4 mm) have part #996.333.511.03 while the whites (0.5 mm) are #996.333.511.02. Yes, it did occur to us that you could try and get the shorter "green" springs and combine them with the "white" compensators to lower the car another 3-4 mm but we cannot recommend something that Porsche has no statements on to our knowledge.

As far as the "feel" of the car with RoW M030, I really like it. It is definitely stiffer and scrapes more than USA M030 but it is worth it for the improved handling and aesthetics. Please see my upcoming EXCELLENCE/PANO article for full details on the spring rates, shock dyno runs and subjective impressions.

BTW, I got all of my parts @ www.schatzmotorsport.com and have found Mike to be extremely knowlegable on this stuff with fair prices. Don't forget that if you have STD suspension, you can keep the front bumpstops but need to get the rear SPORT bumpstops part #996.333.105.03 and also change to the M030 stabilizers front part #996.343.701.04 and rear #996.333.701.13.

Sorry, can't help Huzurdd with the front alignment difficulties...this is not an area I have any expertise in. Note however that there is no significant difference in the alignment specs USA vs. RoW except for the GT3 which we of course can't legally get in this country anyway. My next area of research will likely be the MX74 option available on RoW coupes both C2 and C4's which is also not available in the country. This is also called "30 Low" or "Minus 30" amongst the factory people. It obviously lowers the car 30 mm which may be a bit much for me though I'll likely give it a try for "academic purposes" if Mike can get ahold of the parts for me.