Track pics
04-13-2005 | 02:35 PM
#31
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,350
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by karlooz
i saw that thread. i guess i have to read it again cause what i got out of it was that a roll bar increases the likelihood of a head injury if not using a helmet. since my car is 99% street then i thought it would be safer to use a harness bar.
here's a snippet...
"INSTALLING A ROLLBAR IN A VEHICLE THAT IS REGULARLY DRIVEN ON THE STREET (A DAILY DRIVER) SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF SEVERE HEAD INJURY IN EVEN A MINOR ACCIDENT FOR THE 99% OF THE TIME THAT THE CAR IS NOT ON THE TRACK.
SINCE ROLLBARS ARE TYPICALLY INSTALLED WITHIN 6" OF THE BACK OF THE HEADREST THERE IS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF HEAD CONTACT WITH THE ROLLBAR IN EVEN A MINOR TRAFFIC ACCIDENT AS THE SEAT BACK FLEXES WHEN THE BODY REBOUNDS INTO THE SEAT BACK. ROLLBAR PADDING - EVEN HIGH DENSITY PADDING IS DESIGNED ONLY TO WORK WITH HELMETS AND PROVIDES VERY LITTLE PROTECTION TO AN UN-HELMETED HEAD."
although, if i get a roll bar and use seat back bracing then the likelihood of a head injury caused by the rollbar would significantly decrease BUT i think the wife would appreciate it none too much if i changed her stock seat (passenger) to a racing bucket.
here's a snippet...
"INSTALLING A ROLLBAR IN A VEHICLE THAT IS REGULARLY DRIVEN ON THE STREET (A DAILY DRIVER) SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF SEVERE HEAD INJURY IN EVEN A MINOR ACCIDENT FOR THE 99% OF THE TIME THAT THE CAR IS NOT ON THE TRACK.
SINCE ROLLBARS ARE TYPICALLY INSTALLED WITHIN 6" OF THE BACK OF THE HEADREST THERE IS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF HEAD CONTACT WITH THE ROLLBAR IN EVEN A MINOR TRAFFIC ACCIDENT AS THE SEAT BACK FLEXES WHEN THE BODY REBOUNDS INTO THE SEAT BACK. ROLLBAR PADDING - EVEN HIGH DENSITY PADDING IS DESIGNED ONLY TO WORK WITH HELMETS AND PROVIDES VERY LITTLE PROTECTION TO AN UN-HELMETED HEAD."
although, if i get a roll bar and use seat back bracing then the likelihood of a head injury caused by the rollbar would significantly decrease BUT i think the wife would appreciate it none too much if i changed her stock seat (passenger) to a racing bucket.
1. View your car as an entire safety "system" that should work together rather than viewing the merits of individual pieces of safety hardware.
2. Ideally, there are two basic types of safety systems.
The first contains the following components: 1) Roll bar or cage; 2) 6 point harness; 3) race seat; and 4) helmet. This system is designed to keep your body firmly in place (upright) where it is protected against crushing in the event of a rollover by the rollbar or cage.
The second contains the following components: 1) no roll bar or cage; 2) stock 3 point belts; 3) stock seats; and 5) no helmet (of course a helmet is always safer but this "system" was designed based on the assumption of no helmet). This system is designed to allow your body to move (within a specifically designed range) so that you can remain within the safe area (which is greatly reduced from the normal passenger area) that results after the roof crushes in the event of a roll bar.
Every problem I have heard of results from mixing the two systems. For example, if you use a roll bar or cage without a full harness, your body can move around in the stock seat/three point harness (as it was designed to do) such that your head comes into contact with a very hard object (i.e., the roll bar) that the designer did not ever assume would be in the safe area to begin with. As such, you might have a much larger safe area than you would have had without the roll bar, but your head is broken apart like an egg because you put a hard object into the "movement zone").
The other example that I have heard is using a six point harness without a roll bar. You have just prevented your body from moving the way the designers intended it to move, so your head may remain "upright" and "outside" of the safe area when the car rolls and the roof crushes down. Actually, the safety guys at the track say that the most gruesome injuries they have seen have occured when people use six point harnesses without roll bars (think decapitation or near decapitation).
Hope that "brief" explanation helps, even though I failed in my goal of two or three sentences.
Last edited by TD in DC; 04-13-2005 at 02:53 PM.
04-13-2005 | 02:49 PM
#32
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,199
Likes: 0
From: Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by karlooz
i saw that thread. i guess i have to read it again cause what i got out of it was that a roll bar increases the likelihood of a head injury if not using a helmet. since my car is 99% street then i thought it would be safer to use a harness bar.
here's a snippet...
"INSTALLING A ROLLBAR IN A VEHICLE THAT IS REGULARLY DRIVEN ON THE STREET (A DAILY DRIVER) SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF SEVERE HEAD INJURY IN EVEN A MINOR ACCIDENT FOR THE 99% OF THE TIME THAT THE CAR IS NOT ON THE TRACK.
SINCE ROLLBARS ARE TYPICALLY INSTALLED WITHIN 6" OF THE BACK OF THE HEADREST THERE IS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF HEAD CONTACT WITH THE ROLLBAR IN EVEN A MINOR TRAFFIC ACCIDENT AS THE SEAT BACK FLEXES WHEN THE BODY REBOUNDS INTO THE SEAT BACK. ROLLBAR PADDING - EVEN HIGH DENSITY PADDING IS DESIGNED ONLY TO WORK WITH HELMETS AND PROVIDES VERY LITTLE PROTECTION TO AN UN-HELMETED HEAD."
although, if i get a roll bar and use seat back bracing then the likelihood of a head injury caused by the rollbar would significantly decrease BUT i think the wife would appreciate it none too much if i changed her stock seat (passenger) to a racing bucket.
here's a snippet...
"INSTALLING A ROLLBAR IN A VEHICLE THAT IS REGULARLY DRIVEN ON THE STREET (A DAILY DRIVER) SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD OF SEVERE HEAD INJURY IN EVEN A MINOR ACCIDENT FOR THE 99% OF THE TIME THAT THE CAR IS NOT ON THE TRACK.
SINCE ROLLBARS ARE TYPICALLY INSTALLED WITHIN 6" OF THE BACK OF THE HEADREST THERE IS A HIGH LIKELIHOOD OF HEAD CONTACT WITH THE ROLLBAR IN EVEN A MINOR TRAFFIC ACCIDENT AS THE SEAT BACK FLEXES WHEN THE BODY REBOUNDS INTO THE SEAT BACK. ROLLBAR PADDING - EVEN HIGH DENSITY PADDING IS DESIGNED ONLY TO WORK WITH HELMETS AND PROVIDES VERY LITTLE PROTECTION TO AN UN-HELMETED HEAD."
although, if i get a roll bar and use seat back bracing then the likelihood of a head injury caused by the rollbar would significantly decrease BUT i think the wife would appreciate it none too much if i changed her stock seat (passenger) to a racing bucket.
04-13-2005 | 02:51 PM
#33
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,199
Likes: 0
From: Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by TD in DC
Let me attempt to summarize what I have been told regarding this subject down to one or two sentences:
1. View your car as an entire safety "system" that should work together rather than viewing the merits of individual pieces of safety hardware.
2. Ideally, there are two basic types of safety systems.
The first contains the following components: 1) Roll bar or cage; 2) 6 point harness; 3) race seat; and 4) helmet. This system is designed to keep your body firmly in place (upright) where it is protected against crushing in the event of a rollover by the rollbar or cage.
The second contains the following components: 1) no roll bar or cage; 2) stock 3 point belts; 3) stock seats; and 5) no helmet (of course a helmet is always safer but this "system" was designed based on the assumption of no helmet). This system is designed to allow your body to move (within a specifically designed range) so that you can remain within the safe area (which is greatly reduced from the normal passenger area) that results after the roof crushes in the event of a roll bar.
Every problem I have heard of results from mixing the two systems. For example, if you use a roll bar or cage without a full harness, your body can move around in the stock seat/three point harness (as it was designed to do) such that your head comes into contact with a very hard object (i.e., the roll bar) that the designed did not ever assume would be in the safe area to begin with. As such, you might have a much larger safe area than you would have had without the roll bar, but your head is broken apart like an egg because you put a hard object into the "movement zone").
The other example that I have heard is using a six point harness without a roll bar. You have just prevented your body from moving the way the designers intended it to move, so your head may remain "upright" and "outside" of the safe area when the car rolls and the roof crushes down. Actually, the safety guys at the track say that the most gruesome injuries they have seen have occured when people use six point harnesses without roll bars (think decapitation or near decapitation).
Hope that "brief" explanation helps, even though I failed in my goal of two or three sentences.
1. View your car as an entire safety "system" that should work together rather than viewing the merits of individual pieces of safety hardware.
2. Ideally, there are two basic types of safety systems.
The first contains the following components: 1) Roll bar or cage; 2) 6 point harness; 3) race seat; and 4) helmet. This system is designed to keep your body firmly in place (upright) where it is protected against crushing in the event of a rollover by the rollbar or cage.
The second contains the following components: 1) no roll bar or cage; 2) stock 3 point belts; 3) stock seats; and 5) no helmet (of course a helmet is always safer but this "system" was designed based on the assumption of no helmet). This system is designed to allow your body to move (within a specifically designed range) so that you can remain within the safe area (which is greatly reduced from the normal passenger area) that results after the roof crushes in the event of a roll bar.
Every problem I have heard of results from mixing the two systems. For example, if you use a roll bar or cage without a full harness, your body can move around in the stock seat/three point harness (as it was designed to do) such that your head comes into contact with a very hard object (i.e., the roll bar) that the designed did not ever assume would be in the safe area to begin with. As such, you might have a much larger safe area than you would have had without the roll bar, but your head is broken apart like an egg because you put a hard object into the "movement zone").
The other example that I have heard is using a six point harness without a roll bar. You have just prevented your body from moving the way the designers intended it to move, so your head may remain "upright" and "outside" of the safe area when the car rolls and the roof crushes down. Actually, the safety guys at the track say that the most gruesome injuries they have seen have occured when people use six point harnesses without roll bars (think decapitation or near decapitation).
Hope that "brief" explanation helps, even though I failed in my goal of two or three sentences.
04-13-2005 | 02:56 PM
#34
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,094
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From: SF bay area, CA
Originally Posted by TD in DC
Let me attempt to summarize what I have been told regarding this subject down to one or two sentences:
...
Hope that "brief" explanation helps, even though I failed in my goal of two or three sentences.
...
Hope that "brief" explanation helps, even though I failed in my goal of two or three sentences.
race seat, 3 point belts (gotta have the seat cause the oem sucks)
or
race seat, 6 point harness, roll bar
and
never a harness bar with either case
so are you making do with the stock seats and belts?
04-13-2005 | 02:58 PM
#35
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,350
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by karlooz
so as a mostly street machine you could do:
race seat, 3 point belts (gotta have the seat cause the oem sucks)
or
race seat, 6 point harness, roll bar
and
never a harness bar with either case
so are you making do with the stock seats and belts?
race seat, 3 point belts (gotta have the seat cause the oem sucks)
or
race seat, 6 point harness, roll bar
and
never a harness bar with either case
so are you making do with the stock seats and belts?
For me, yes, I am making do with stock seats and belts for the time being. Very frustrating, I know, but safety first.
04-13-2005 | 03:32 PM
#36
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From: SF bay area, CA
Originally Posted by DJ 996
My comments pertain to track use, but unless you are going to trailer the car you will have to deal with the roll bar to and from the track. Roll bars can cause severe head injury on the street, even if they are padded. The problem with a harness bar is you will be trapped into the seats upon impact and will not be able to slide out of the way of a collapsing roof. I would not use a harness bar by itself. The best (safer) solution would be a bolt in Das roll bar and 6 point harness, haul the bar in your support vehicle and bolt the bar in at the track.
. the support vehicle IS my 996 
.the das bar sounds like a suitable alternative if it can be easily removed. i'll have to check into it.
i have also seen redlineman's proto roll bar. it doesn't encroach into the driver compartment at all so it is as far away as possible from the driver's head. redline rollbar
04-13-2005 | 05:35 PM
#37
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,199
Likes: 0
From: Houston, Texas
GT3 seats and stock belts would do just fine. I'm still using stock seats and belts too, and I run in the white run group, which is a problem. The problem is at these speeds I really need a roll bar and I'm trying to decide what to do. Either a roll bar/ 6 point harness/tow to the track or back off the track for a while.
04-13-2005 | 08:02 PM
#38
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,075
Likes: 238
From: North Eastern US
Originally Posted by rxt27
Well, rxt27 is the email address that I got when I was in undergraduate school. My initials are rt, x means no middle name. 27 means I am number 27 with the initials rxt. Since then, I have been using this username everywhere. hehe, nothing to do with RX7 Palting,I think we have met before down in Beaverun. I had my blue BMW there and you had the C4S. We talked about me really loving your car. Remember? Well I was from OH. I moved to CA in Jan 2004. Nice to talk to you again.
Palting,I think we have met before down in Beaverun. I had my blue BMW there and you had the C4S. We talked about me really loving your car. Remember? Well I was from OH. I moved to CA in Jan 2004. Nice to talk to you again. . I think I even have a pic of it somewhere.And you got a C4S! Congratulations on an excellent choice!! No bias on my comment, of course
. You'll be passing M coupes in that in no time, if you aren't already. Now you can go 12 months of the year to the track in sunny CA. I'm still jockeying for position among all these other winter track-deprived dudes for space on the track.