2 BLOWN ENGINES & $37,000+ in REPAIRS in LESS THAN 1000 MILES on my 99 996
10-17-2004, 01:38 PM
#91
Some Support for Porsche Certified
I'm sympathetic to your problems Bob, being a new (used) 2000 C4 owner. For other readers, I can say that purchasing a certified used Porsche with the two year warranty has been a good experience for me. I've had two problems with each control arm ball joint creaking. Both replaced under warranty at Pfaff Porsche in Toronto.
I paid a good buck for this car, but in retrospect it seems worth it. The car was in excellent good shape, low mileage, about 56,000 KMS or 35,000 miles and the 4WD aspect intrigued me. It was also extremely well optioned.
I had test driven a '99 C2 for a weekend and found that the introductory model year for the 996 had some aspects that I didn't like including the interior compared to the later models, so I set my sights on a 2000 or newer.
When I looked at buying this car the dealer was quite clear as to how the car was reconditioned and I was shown all of the work orders and completed work on the car when it arrived at the dealer. It was fairly impressive and exhaustive so, I had a good idea of what I was getting. And I was getting a two year warranty.
Now all of that cost me over $50k (US), but it seemed in the ballbark based on my research, so I went ahead and bought it. For those looking at a first time Porsche purchase, I think its a good way to go.
I paid a good buck for this car, but in retrospect it seems worth it. The car was in excellent good shape, low mileage, about 56,000 KMS or 35,000 miles and the 4WD aspect intrigued me. It was also extremely well optioned.
I had test driven a '99 C2 for a weekend and found that the introductory model year for the 996 had some aspects that I didn't like including the interior compared to the later models, so I set my sights on a 2000 or newer.
When I looked at buying this car the dealer was quite clear as to how the car was reconditioned and I was shown all of the work orders and completed work on the car when it arrived at the dealer. It was fairly impressive and exhaustive so, I had a good idea of what I was getting. And I was getting a two year warranty.
Now all of that cost me over $50k (US), but it seemed in the ballbark based on my research, so I went ahead and bought it. For those looking at a first time Porsche purchase, I think its a good way to go.
10-17-2004, 02:17 PM
#92
Rennlist Member
carbon_00,
I think you are lucky you have a great relationship with your dealer and your past experience clearly has been positive and therefore you have gone back to buy more cars from them. Not all dealers have such a great service and I have heard of dreadful service from people who visited their OPC. I think if you had a bad experience I bet you will never go back. We do not know for certain if the original poster was telling us loads of rubbish but all I did was to post a reference about genuine owners who are tired of the service they are getting having forked out their hard-earned cash to buy something they aspired to owning for a long time only for it to turn out into a nightmare they'd rather forget.
I think the moral of all this is that if you are going to buy a 996 then it is best to buy at an OPC with warranty. I think this in itself has been a useful education that has come out of this thread that a lot of us wished never got posted in the first place.
Harry
I think you are lucky you have a great relationship with your dealer and your past experience clearly has been positive and therefore you have gone back to buy more cars from them. Not all dealers have such a great service and I have heard of dreadful service from people who visited their OPC. I think if you had a bad experience I bet you will never go back. We do not know for certain if the original poster was telling us loads of rubbish but all I did was to post a reference about genuine owners who are tired of the service they are getting having forked out their hard-earned cash to buy something they aspired to owning for a long time only for it to turn out into a nightmare they'd rather forget.
I think the moral of all this is that if you are going to buy a 996 then it is best to buy at an OPC with warranty. I think this in itself has been a useful education that has come out of this thread that a lot of us wished never got posted in the first place.
Harry
10-17-2004, 09:08 PM
#94
Pro
Thread Starter
Summary
After reading all these posts, I can understand the skepticism from all the problems I have had with my 996.
I as well would be skeptical as well from all these problems. In terms of purchasing the vehicle from a ford dealer, yes I was a bit baffled as to why they had such a vehicle on their lot. Regardless, when I went to go view the vehicle, I did fall in love. It had every option available for that year, with the $95k MSRP, and at $39k for a C2 Cab in excellent condition, taking my slk trade-in for $8k more than any other dealership would offer... I took the bait...
...and figured, how much trouble could this car be at driving it 2,000 to 3,000 miles a year? And even though it was a ford dealership, what would matter if it was a ford dealership, or an independant used car lot, that bought the same car from the same auction? It shouldn't really matter. I knew it was an auction vehicle, and took my chances, as I have with many other auction vehicles in the past...
I learned a great lesson through this all... and in a way I'm greatful of what happened, as I learned that purchasing semi-exotic or exotic cars with mileage can potentially result in nightmares. I've heard them from ferrari, lambo, ranger rover, owners, etc... but never thought it would happen to me..
In terms of all the skeptics, you are entitled to think what you want... It really does not matter. If you believe the 996 is a top quality vehicle with an excellent engine with no defaults or imperfections, you are entitled to believe that. If you believe porsche service and support for their customers is top notch, you as well are entitled to believe that.
From my experience with porsche north america at 1-800-PORSCHE and from 5 dealerships, I have had no care, concern or willingness to work with me in the least, or care. But they will gladly take my $18,000 at $150 an hour to charge me for a new engine, if I'm willing to spend my money there.
For the amount of money porsche makes on their vehicles, in my own personal opinion, they have treated me worse and more unsympathetic than any other car manufacturer ever has in the past considering what I have been through. Both the dealers and Porsche North America directly.
The porsche ride, is unbelievable, the handling, amazing... the feeling of having the top down, and driving at high speeds, is enthralling... yes.. I do not disagree there... but in terms of the fact of porsche's negligence in admitting any fault or concern for their customers of $100k cars is just plain unacceptable.
Toyota, Chrystler, and most any other car manufacturer will gladly recall 2 million vehicles, for a minor defect in any fault of their vehicle, on cars that cost $10-$15k.
Considering my car has been on fire twice in a month, and telling porsche customer service this, i've been met with a response of "write a letter"
I would think a car being on fire twice in a month to be somewhat of a safety concern, not to mention all the other problems i've had. Yes, my car is a lemon, yes my 996 is an exception.. It has had all inspections, all oil changes done during the warranty period, and if it was a lemon, one would expect, porsche would offer some type of compensation, whether to replace the engine at dealer cost, or even a replacement vehicle. Nothing.. no help, no assistance. Nothing.
$37,000 in maintenance from 1000 miles and a service history of being in the shop for 47 repairs during the warranty period is unacceptable in my opinion. Porsche's response to this? "Not our fault, deal with it on your own, just spend another $50,000 and i'm sure everything will be fine." No care about me burning up in a fire, no care about my safety, costs, or problems i've had.
Put yourself in my position. Would you buy another $100k vehicle from a manufacturer that treats you like this?
To all that have had excellent success and reliability with their 996, as said previously, that is great. The 996, 993 and all porsches are beautiful and excellent cars. Unfortunately, there are a handful of nightmare stories out there. And when no salvage yards in the country have any 996 used engines in stock, because they are sold out before they even arrive, that should tell you, that I'm not alone in this case...
I'm curious to see many of your thoughts on what I have said, as years pass, and you are forced to spend $15,000 of your hard earned money on a replacement engine that was built with faults beyond your control, that you at no fault on your own decided to blow up on you.
For all those skeptics, I really don't care. Comments calling me a moron and a troll for posting these messages, are just plain upsetting. If this happened to you, wouldn't you be the least bit upset?
I know what has happened to me, and if you care not to believe me, that is fine, but responding in such a manner, is plain rude. Anyone in Seattle, feel free to visit Park Place in Belleve, talk to Brian or Tim, the service managers all you have to say is "White Porsche" and they will tell you that this car has had more problems than any other car they've ever experienced, none that are the fault of myself, as they are all internal problems. They will verify all the engine fires, and even have one of my blown up engines with fire damage sitting there in the back, with the hole in it, from the rod deciding to puncture the block, if you wish to view it.
For those that requested postings from the http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com and wwww.911uk.com, here are just a couple dozen of some of the messages relating to the new 996 porsche engine failures from two threads alone.... as I can see from there, i am not alone... Note that all of these posts are from different porsche owners..
------
If any other nails were needed in the coffin of my love affair with 911's, then Porsche's attitude to what is obvioulsy a major defect in their cars, is doing absolutely nothing to ensure continuing loyalty from me. However, I can see that I'm likely to keep my 996 until at least a used DB9 convertible falls within my price range, so I guess I'll be around a tad longer
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I guess they can try but they would have to try and explain as to why a £80k car that has been fully serviced by an OPC fails at less than 13% of its published designed mileage due to a part that is not a wear and tear item. Further this part has never been touched by anybody other than the Porsche. In my case if this part had failed while i was driving at motorway speeds then it would have resulted in injury both myself and others (ask anyone what happens if a connecting rod snaps at 80mph!)
Update from Porsche AG.
After a week of thinking PAG now want my independant inspectors report to tell them whats wrong with my car. After some conversation it turns out this was because i would not "allow my car to be touched by Porsche". Considering that the car has been serviced and now dismanteled by the same OPC i have no idea how this has come about. Further i already sent a letter asking PGB to inspect my car about 8 weeks ago! I am sure it does not take that long to drive from Reading to Wilmslow!
-------
I understand the reticence, perhaps, of the PCGB to get too involved in these premature engine failure issues for fear of perhaps damaging future customer confidence / current owners residuals.
From a non-technical perspective, and I'm non-tech!, it would appear the engine is fundamentally flawed...all the engine problems (resulting in a replacement engine) I have read of recently appear to be centred around liners or auxialliary driveshaft bearings...and of course, there is the RMS issue.
I don't have a solution to offer. I'll continue to (selfishly) wrap myself in the comforting blanket of security the warranty provides, albiet at a cost (so much for buying into a marque with legendary bullet proof build quality)
What does amaze me though is the inconsistency with which Porsche GB applies their goodwill. Some appear to be out of the warranty period and get the engine replacement free, some are paying a %age (variable) cost and some are left completely frozen out.
I would have thought a modern, well designed engine should be good for at least 150k reliable miles before requiring any major remedial work...many of the failures I have read off occured at very low mileages.
------------
Jackie,
You have read it correctly. Most of us like me have just contributed monies that we would have paid to upgrade to a 997 towards the legal costs. I personally have a retainer with the solicitors of 80k. The others have contributed various amounts
Please dont get me wrong i dont want to take the marque to the cleaners, but when a contribution from the PGB is 800pounds towards a 10k bill you get PI$$ed off especially when the contribution is accompanied by attitude. You then get further infuriated by the fact that you are now listening to a recorded message read out by a gimp on the end of the phone who does not wish to listen to any logical argument. in what other field do you have the situation where you hand over 10's of thousands of pounds then get told the item that you have bought has failed due to no fault of your own.
Steve
I know what you mean by the attitude of some of the owners. I have to say i have met brick walls in my persuit of this matter. Mostly from those who have claimed that it was not possible for Porsches to fail or to fail so regularly. If Porsche does turn up in court then my solicitors will push for them to disclose the true number of failures. As you know the argument from Porsche "its a one off" will not stand up in court!
---------------
It appears that a number of low mileage 996s are experiencing unexplained total engine failure. It’s being suggested that this is much more common than anyone will admit and that it’s caused by a design fault.
Most worrying is the attitude that Porsche Service Centres are taking. If you read the posts in the forum at 911uk.com you will see that owners of cars outside the warranty period, even those with full service histories and low mileage, are facing bills of up to £10,000 for complete engine replacements.
The experience of these unfortunate 996 owners is that Porsche GB have been very unsympathetic, an attitude that I find astonishing. The Porsche tradition is to build bullet proof sports cars, its one of the major reasons that it sells so well and was certainly one of the major factors that persuaded me to choose a 996 over any of its rivals. If it is now proved to be subject to major engine problems that Porsche is unwilling to accept liability for, I for one will be selling and buying a different marque with a more sympathetic approach to its customer base.
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Unfortunately it's not just 996 owners either - there have been a number of Boxster engine failures (identical engine to 996, just different capacity). I was one of the lucky who had their engine replaced under warranty, but was told that if I was even 1 day out of warranty then I would have been given a bill for £12K, which is a bit worrying to say the least.
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Andrew, I read the article in the Post too with much interest as I am one of the unhappy number. Last November my (wife's) 1998 996 C2 Cab, with 40,000 miles on the clock, two sensible owners and a full OPC service history, needed a new engine after a crank case cracked. I spoke to the chief engineer at my OPC in Chiswick who said he had never seen anything like it before and had no idea how it could have happened. I also spoke to a senior technician at Reading who told me he knew of two previous crank cases cracking, but Chiswick seemed wholly uninterested in reporting it to Germany and asked me for £9,500 for the new engine and the necessary 40 hours' labour.
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I started the thread in the 911uk.com forum after my car failed at 30k. I have to say that the issues with oil starvation is not really the issue for most people but 996 engines do fail.
I set up a database and to date have collected about 40 genuine cases of catastrophic engine failures from owners that have driven the car sensibly and had then serviced at OPC for the duration of the cars life.
The main issue is to do with the lack of help offered by the OPC and PGB and the level of misdirection and misinformation given by all of them.
I am sorry but when a car costing 80K fails due to no fault of the owner then the responsiblity lies solely(if not for the great %) with the manufactuer. When you dont get the level of service that you expect then there will be dissatisfied customers.
Its now been 4 months since my car failed. PGB customer service has been totally useless and actually managed to send me a letter to say that Porsches will fail at 5years even with a low mileage. I have now managed to get through to the legal department in Germany and they have untill the close of buisnesss this Friday to give me an answer. If they dont then my solicitors have already got the material to issue a summons.
With thanks to all those concerned we have, so far, raised in the region of 500k towards the legal battle.
Wish us luck, it will be for the good of all of us here. Those that have had failures and those of us who so far have been lucky
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Right folks I'm going to add my 2p's worth as a Boxster S owner who's recently suffered a major engine failure (14k miles, full OPC history with engine replaced under warranty)
You'll have to forgive me if some of the technical expressions are not quite correct - a girl on a steep learning curve!
My engine failed, without warning and without being driven aggresively; the cause was subsequently discovered to be 3 split liners on one side of the engine....with no good reason for it occuring.
In the space of 5 weeks or so, I have read reports of at least 5 996/986 engines failing on other Porsche forums...aux drive shaft bearing failure, liners moving and my "split liners"
I have no idea what %age of the total Porsche owners belong to a marque related forum, I'd hazard a guess at not too many. I'd suggest that 5 "forum" reported engine failures in a short period of time represents a high failure rate if extrapolated to account for the non forum paticipating Porsche owners.
Two days ago my OPC disclosed that they had one Boxster and one 996 in their workshops awaiting engine replacement.
By way of comparison (poor I know) I only recall 2 engine failures reported on an Audi forum in two years.
Rightly or wrongly, I can only surmise that the attrition rate on these Porsche engines is very high.
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jac in a box is right.
the percentage of porsche owners that contribute to forums must be very low. so the number of instances of total engine failure is likely to be higher than any of us would want to believe.
what i don't understand is why porsche is not desperately trying to placate aggrieved owners by repairing their cars as if under warranty - they must appreciate the damage that this could do to the marques reputation - the motoring press would have a field day!
many other manufacturers would have already stripped the failed engines down and found the cause, or causes, of the problem.
the lack of response from porsche, porsche GB and the OPC's has shocked me. does anyone know if our club has got involved at all?
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I have also had 30,000mile 1999 996 c2 triptronic blow up on me the other day.
The car was bought new from Porsche center(Stratstone, wilmslow) and was maintained and serviced by them. The last service was 1 month ago.
The car had only been driven 6 days since the service, when clouds of white smoke came from one of the exhausts and it died on me! There were no waring lights, the car has never been driven hard (its anautomatic!), never raced and looked after.
The Porsche centre feel that it would be added costs to me to find out what the cause of the problem is and wish to replace my engine. Cost, a cool £10,000++
The Porsche centre have been rather unhelpful. I am a doc on call, but they have not provided me with a loan car, Porsche GB are not willing to help financially at present. The Porsche centre have said in as many words its not their problem, i have to pay for a new engine!
I note that there are quite a few reports of 1998/9 996 engines failing The Porsche centre agrees that this problem would have surfaced during the warrenty period had the car covered the usual 12k miles per year, and been covered
Is this really what we are to expect from Porsche in the future? I have a new 911 on order but am now really worried by both the attitude of the Porsche Center and that of Porsche GB
I would value the views of others on this matter and will keep you informed of my progress
------------------
I wrote to the Porsche centre as requested, they "wrote" to Porsche GB who came back with a contribution of £0!!!! I have since talked to Porsche GB they will get back to me tomorrow.
Statstone dont know why it went wrong they just say it needs a new engine!! They feel the cost of stripping the engine down would add a substantial cost to MY bill.
This is not an uncommon problem i am begining to find out. Porsche are aware of a problem with some engines built pre April 1999 so should inform owners of this but as always have not.
So far i have been mailed by 3 owners in a similar position to mine in uk
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I seem to be gathering a few people from around the uk who have had the same problem with their car. They have all had the same response from their Porsche Centres that they need a new engine, no cause found! Porsche GB have tried to say that its nothing to do with them as the cars are over 5years old!! one of the local independants say that they have on average 1-2 cars a month
Looking at the Porsche owners club in the USA the problem of cracked cylinders sems to have attracted many posts. I even have some pictures!! Porsche have known of problems with engine cylinder blocks
I really would like to build up a database of those who have had such a problem would welcome just brief comments from members.
While i understand that there is a point at which a car can fail, fauilures of such catostrophic nature should not really happen to a prestige marque at a low mileage
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After a meeting with the Service manager today the following has emerged.
HE does feel that its likely to be a sliped cylinder lining or a cracked cylinder. Both of which i could not have caused! There have been a few cases of these of this (4 last month) in low mileage well used fully serviced cars.
I have agreed to pay for the engine to be stripped down so that the fault can be found (we all agreed that it was a waste of time and money). The cost would be for 40hours of labour! £2k++
The point of all of this expence and time......
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sounds like a similar problem to what i suffered with my '51 996 - in my case the intermediate shaft snapped, sending debris around the engine and screwing it big time. this on a three year old, 16k miles car. check the thread...
http://www.911uk.com/forum/display_t...PagePosition=2
porsche brushed my claims off - as it was 4 months out of warranty and an import (previous owner... err.... Porsche GMBH)
it seems that a HUGE number of individuals (compared to the numbers of 996's around....) are suffering catastrophic engine failures.
is it time to collect statistics and think about a way of getting porsche to take notice of these manufacturing defects? a twin track of publicity and legal action may get them to take their duty of care more seriously.
continued....
I as well would be skeptical as well from all these problems. In terms of purchasing the vehicle from a ford dealer, yes I was a bit baffled as to why they had such a vehicle on their lot. Regardless, when I went to go view the vehicle, I did fall in love. It had every option available for that year, with the $95k MSRP, and at $39k for a C2 Cab in excellent condition, taking my slk trade-in for $8k more than any other dealership would offer... I took the bait...
...and figured, how much trouble could this car be at driving it 2,000 to 3,000 miles a year? And even though it was a ford dealership, what would matter if it was a ford dealership, or an independant used car lot, that bought the same car from the same auction? It shouldn't really matter. I knew it was an auction vehicle, and took my chances, as I have with many other auction vehicles in the past...
I learned a great lesson through this all... and in a way I'm greatful of what happened, as I learned that purchasing semi-exotic or exotic cars with mileage can potentially result in nightmares. I've heard them from ferrari, lambo, ranger rover, owners, etc... but never thought it would happen to me..
In terms of all the skeptics, you are entitled to think what you want... It really does not matter. If you believe the 996 is a top quality vehicle with an excellent engine with no defaults or imperfections, you are entitled to believe that. If you believe porsche service and support for their customers is top notch, you as well are entitled to believe that.
From my experience with porsche north america at 1-800-PORSCHE and from 5 dealerships, I have had no care, concern or willingness to work with me in the least, or care. But they will gladly take my $18,000 at $150 an hour to charge me for a new engine, if I'm willing to spend my money there.
For the amount of money porsche makes on their vehicles, in my own personal opinion, they have treated me worse and more unsympathetic than any other car manufacturer ever has in the past considering what I have been through. Both the dealers and Porsche North America directly.
The porsche ride, is unbelievable, the handling, amazing... the feeling of having the top down, and driving at high speeds, is enthralling... yes.. I do not disagree there... but in terms of the fact of porsche's negligence in admitting any fault or concern for their customers of $100k cars is just plain unacceptable.
Toyota, Chrystler, and most any other car manufacturer will gladly recall 2 million vehicles, for a minor defect in any fault of their vehicle, on cars that cost $10-$15k.
Considering my car has been on fire twice in a month, and telling porsche customer service this, i've been met with a response of "write a letter"
I would think a car being on fire twice in a month to be somewhat of a safety concern, not to mention all the other problems i've had. Yes, my car is a lemon, yes my 996 is an exception.. It has had all inspections, all oil changes done during the warranty period, and if it was a lemon, one would expect, porsche would offer some type of compensation, whether to replace the engine at dealer cost, or even a replacement vehicle. Nothing.. no help, no assistance. Nothing.
$37,000 in maintenance from 1000 miles and a service history of being in the shop for 47 repairs during the warranty period is unacceptable in my opinion. Porsche's response to this? "Not our fault, deal with it on your own, just spend another $50,000 and i'm sure everything will be fine." No care about me burning up in a fire, no care about my safety, costs, or problems i've had.
Put yourself in my position. Would you buy another $100k vehicle from a manufacturer that treats you like this?
To all that have had excellent success and reliability with their 996, as said previously, that is great. The 996, 993 and all porsches are beautiful and excellent cars. Unfortunately, there are a handful of nightmare stories out there. And when no salvage yards in the country have any 996 used engines in stock, because they are sold out before they even arrive, that should tell you, that I'm not alone in this case...
I'm curious to see many of your thoughts on what I have said, as years pass, and you are forced to spend $15,000 of your hard earned money on a replacement engine that was built with faults beyond your control, that you at no fault on your own decided to blow up on you.
For all those skeptics, I really don't care. Comments calling me a moron and a troll for posting these messages, are just plain upsetting. If this happened to you, wouldn't you be the least bit upset?
I know what has happened to me, and if you care not to believe me, that is fine, but responding in such a manner, is plain rude. Anyone in Seattle, feel free to visit Park Place in Belleve, talk to Brian or Tim, the service managers all you have to say is "White Porsche" and they will tell you that this car has had more problems than any other car they've ever experienced, none that are the fault of myself, as they are all internal problems. They will verify all the engine fires, and even have one of my blown up engines with fire damage sitting there in the back, with the hole in it, from the rod deciding to puncture the block, if you wish to view it.
For those that requested postings from the http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com and wwww.911uk.com, here are just a couple dozen of some of the messages relating to the new 996 porsche engine failures from two threads alone.... as I can see from there, i am not alone... Note that all of these posts are from different porsche owners..
------
If any other nails were needed in the coffin of my love affair with 911's, then Porsche's attitude to what is obvioulsy a major defect in their cars, is doing absolutely nothing to ensure continuing loyalty from me. However, I can see that I'm likely to keep my 996 until at least a used DB9 convertible falls within my price range, so I guess I'll be around a tad longer
-------------
I guess they can try but they would have to try and explain as to why a £80k car that has been fully serviced by an OPC fails at less than 13% of its published designed mileage due to a part that is not a wear and tear item. Further this part has never been touched by anybody other than the Porsche. In my case if this part had failed while i was driving at motorway speeds then it would have resulted in injury both myself and others (ask anyone what happens if a connecting rod snaps at 80mph!)
Update from Porsche AG.
After a week of thinking PAG now want my independant inspectors report to tell them whats wrong with my car. After some conversation it turns out this was because i would not "allow my car to be touched by Porsche". Considering that the car has been serviced and now dismanteled by the same OPC i have no idea how this has come about. Further i already sent a letter asking PGB to inspect my car about 8 weeks ago! I am sure it does not take that long to drive from Reading to Wilmslow!
-------
I understand the reticence, perhaps, of the PCGB to get too involved in these premature engine failure issues for fear of perhaps damaging future customer confidence / current owners residuals.
From a non-technical perspective, and I'm non-tech!, it would appear the engine is fundamentally flawed...all the engine problems (resulting in a replacement engine) I have read of recently appear to be centred around liners or auxialliary driveshaft bearings...and of course, there is the RMS issue.
I don't have a solution to offer. I'll continue to (selfishly) wrap myself in the comforting blanket of security the warranty provides, albiet at a cost (so much for buying into a marque with legendary bullet proof build quality)
What does amaze me though is the inconsistency with which Porsche GB applies their goodwill. Some appear to be out of the warranty period and get the engine replacement free, some are paying a %age (variable) cost and some are left completely frozen out.
I would have thought a modern, well designed engine should be good for at least 150k reliable miles before requiring any major remedial work...many of the failures I have read off occured at very low mileages.
------------
Jackie,
You have read it correctly. Most of us like me have just contributed monies that we would have paid to upgrade to a 997 towards the legal costs. I personally have a retainer with the solicitors of 80k. The others have contributed various amounts
Please dont get me wrong i dont want to take the marque to the cleaners, but when a contribution from the PGB is 800pounds towards a 10k bill you get PI$$ed off especially when the contribution is accompanied by attitude. You then get further infuriated by the fact that you are now listening to a recorded message read out by a gimp on the end of the phone who does not wish to listen to any logical argument. in what other field do you have the situation where you hand over 10's of thousands of pounds then get told the item that you have bought has failed due to no fault of your own.
Steve
I know what you mean by the attitude of some of the owners. I have to say i have met brick walls in my persuit of this matter. Mostly from those who have claimed that it was not possible for Porsches to fail or to fail so regularly. If Porsche does turn up in court then my solicitors will push for them to disclose the true number of failures. As you know the argument from Porsche "its a one off" will not stand up in court!
---------------
It appears that a number of low mileage 996s are experiencing unexplained total engine failure. It’s being suggested that this is much more common than anyone will admit and that it’s caused by a design fault.
Most worrying is the attitude that Porsche Service Centres are taking. If you read the posts in the forum at 911uk.com you will see that owners of cars outside the warranty period, even those with full service histories and low mileage, are facing bills of up to £10,000 for complete engine replacements.
The experience of these unfortunate 996 owners is that Porsche GB have been very unsympathetic, an attitude that I find astonishing. The Porsche tradition is to build bullet proof sports cars, its one of the major reasons that it sells so well and was certainly one of the major factors that persuaded me to choose a 996 over any of its rivals. If it is now proved to be subject to major engine problems that Porsche is unwilling to accept liability for, I for one will be selling and buying a different marque with a more sympathetic approach to its customer base.
------------
Unfortunately it's not just 996 owners either - there have been a number of Boxster engine failures (identical engine to 996, just different capacity). I was one of the lucky who had their engine replaced under warranty, but was told that if I was even 1 day out of warranty then I would have been given a bill for £12K, which is a bit worrying to say the least.
--------------
Andrew, I read the article in the Post too with much interest as I am one of the unhappy number. Last November my (wife's) 1998 996 C2 Cab, with 40,000 miles on the clock, two sensible owners and a full OPC service history, needed a new engine after a crank case cracked. I spoke to the chief engineer at my OPC in Chiswick who said he had never seen anything like it before and had no idea how it could have happened. I also spoke to a senior technician at Reading who told me he knew of two previous crank cases cracking, but Chiswick seemed wholly uninterested in reporting it to Germany and asked me for £9,500 for the new engine and the necessary 40 hours' labour.
---------------
I started the thread in the 911uk.com forum after my car failed at 30k. I have to say that the issues with oil starvation is not really the issue for most people but 996 engines do fail.
I set up a database and to date have collected about 40 genuine cases of catastrophic engine failures from owners that have driven the car sensibly and had then serviced at OPC for the duration of the cars life.
The main issue is to do with the lack of help offered by the OPC and PGB and the level of misdirection and misinformation given by all of them.
I am sorry but when a car costing 80K fails due to no fault of the owner then the responsiblity lies solely(if not for the great %) with the manufactuer. When you dont get the level of service that you expect then there will be dissatisfied customers.
Its now been 4 months since my car failed. PGB customer service has been totally useless and actually managed to send me a letter to say that Porsches will fail at 5years even with a low mileage. I have now managed to get through to the legal department in Germany and they have untill the close of buisnesss this Friday to give me an answer. If they dont then my solicitors have already got the material to issue a summons.
With thanks to all those concerned we have, so far, raised in the region of 500k towards the legal battle.
Wish us luck, it will be for the good of all of us here. Those that have had failures and those of us who so far have been lucky
----------------
Right folks I'm going to add my 2p's worth as a Boxster S owner who's recently suffered a major engine failure (14k miles, full OPC history with engine replaced under warranty)
You'll have to forgive me if some of the technical expressions are not quite correct - a girl on a steep learning curve!
My engine failed, without warning and without being driven aggresively; the cause was subsequently discovered to be 3 split liners on one side of the engine....with no good reason for it occuring.
In the space of 5 weeks or so, I have read reports of at least 5 996/986 engines failing on other Porsche forums...aux drive shaft bearing failure, liners moving and my "split liners"
I have no idea what %age of the total Porsche owners belong to a marque related forum, I'd hazard a guess at not too many. I'd suggest that 5 "forum" reported engine failures in a short period of time represents a high failure rate if extrapolated to account for the non forum paticipating Porsche owners.
Two days ago my OPC disclosed that they had one Boxster and one 996 in their workshops awaiting engine replacement.
By way of comparison (poor I know) I only recall 2 engine failures reported on an Audi forum in two years.
Rightly or wrongly, I can only surmise that the attrition rate on these Porsche engines is very high.
----------------
jac in a box is right.
the percentage of porsche owners that contribute to forums must be very low. so the number of instances of total engine failure is likely to be higher than any of us would want to believe.
what i don't understand is why porsche is not desperately trying to placate aggrieved owners by repairing their cars as if under warranty - they must appreciate the damage that this could do to the marques reputation - the motoring press would have a field day!
many other manufacturers would have already stripped the failed engines down and found the cause, or causes, of the problem.
the lack of response from porsche, porsche GB and the OPC's has shocked me. does anyone know if our club has got involved at all?
---------------
I have also had 30,000mile 1999 996 c2 triptronic blow up on me the other day.
The car was bought new from Porsche center(Stratstone, wilmslow) and was maintained and serviced by them. The last service was 1 month ago.
The car had only been driven 6 days since the service, when clouds of white smoke came from one of the exhausts and it died on me! There were no waring lights, the car has never been driven hard (its anautomatic!), never raced and looked after.
The Porsche centre feel that it would be added costs to me to find out what the cause of the problem is and wish to replace my engine. Cost, a cool £10,000++
The Porsche centre have been rather unhelpful. I am a doc on call, but they have not provided me with a loan car, Porsche GB are not willing to help financially at present. The Porsche centre have said in as many words its not their problem, i have to pay for a new engine!
I note that there are quite a few reports of 1998/9 996 engines failing The Porsche centre agrees that this problem would have surfaced during the warrenty period had the car covered the usual 12k miles per year, and been covered
Is this really what we are to expect from Porsche in the future? I have a new 911 on order but am now really worried by both the attitude of the Porsche Center and that of Porsche GB
I would value the views of others on this matter and will keep you informed of my progress
------------------
I wrote to the Porsche centre as requested, they "wrote" to Porsche GB who came back with a contribution of £0!!!! I have since talked to Porsche GB they will get back to me tomorrow.
Statstone dont know why it went wrong they just say it needs a new engine!! They feel the cost of stripping the engine down would add a substantial cost to MY bill.
This is not an uncommon problem i am begining to find out. Porsche are aware of a problem with some engines built pre April 1999 so should inform owners of this but as always have not.
So far i have been mailed by 3 owners in a similar position to mine in uk
-----------
I seem to be gathering a few people from around the uk who have had the same problem with their car. They have all had the same response from their Porsche Centres that they need a new engine, no cause found! Porsche GB have tried to say that its nothing to do with them as the cars are over 5years old!! one of the local independants say that they have on average 1-2 cars a month
Looking at the Porsche owners club in the USA the problem of cracked cylinders sems to have attracted many posts. I even have some pictures!! Porsche have known of problems with engine cylinder blocks
I really would like to build up a database of those who have had such a problem would welcome just brief comments from members.
While i understand that there is a point at which a car can fail, fauilures of such catostrophic nature should not really happen to a prestige marque at a low mileage
---------
After a meeting with the Service manager today the following has emerged.
HE does feel that its likely to be a sliped cylinder lining or a cracked cylinder. Both of which i could not have caused! There have been a few cases of these of this (4 last month) in low mileage well used fully serviced cars.
I have agreed to pay for the engine to be stripped down so that the fault can be found (we all agreed that it was a waste of time and money). The cost would be for 40hours of labour! £2k++
The point of all of this expence and time......
--------------
sounds like a similar problem to what i suffered with my '51 996 - in my case the intermediate shaft snapped, sending debris around the engine and screwing it big time. this on a three year old, 16k miles car. check the thread...
http://www.911uk.com/forum/display_t...PagePosition=2
porsche brushed my claims off - as it was 4 months out of warranty and an import (previous owner... err.... Porsche GMBH)
it seems that a HUGE number of individuals (compared to the numbers of 996's around....) are suffering catastrophic engine failures.
is it time to collect statistics and think about a way of getting porsche to take notice of these manufacturing defects? a twin track of publicity and legal action may get them to take their duty of care more seriously.
continued....
Last edited by bobporsche996; 10-17-2004 at 10:43 PM.
10-17-2004, 10:31 PM
#96
Pro
Thread Starter
----------
I also had the same problem with my 1998 996 after 22,000 miles again from Stratstones of Wilmslow. I had bought a warranty which covered the cost of the replacement engine but this I believe was paid for by Porsche GB. At the time there was total denial of any previously known problems with this type of engine. There seems to be a culture of secrecy and lack of openness.
----------
Check the latest issue of Excellence. Story about 1999 996 that broke timing belt (and wrecked engine) at 27K miles. Even though out of warranty, Porsche (USA) replaced engine at no cost to owner.
-----------
Not sure about the US article, but there is a new 996 Turbo in AFN Guildford currently having the engine completely rebuilt at Porsche's cost.
The fault was a timing belt that snapped and initially Porsche blamed the driver for over revving the engine on a track day Two weeks on and they have decided to pay for the repairs. Why the change of heart?
--------------
ENGINE REPLACEMENTS FROM PORSCHE
Those of you near the top of this page esp rehan and Pete a word of warning about engine replaced Porsches.
Porsche GB through its Porsche centres replaces the blown engine with two types. Fisrt is the "recon" or "rebuilt" engines that are essentially old blown engines that have been "fixed". These are identified by theie vin numbers having an "X" at the end. The second is a completly new engine that does not have an "X" at the end. Both come with a 2 year warranty but neither may last that long as i am beginning to find out!
The problem is commoner than you think. You need to understand that most porsches are not driven that much, cars that were going to fail in the sub 16k group were fixed by the warranty but its those that are failing at the 30-50k mark that are only now comming through.
Guys the Official Porsche Centres will tell you that their cars do not fail but check out renlist.com and other sites before you buy.
I have been and i guess always will be a Porsche fan but i did not expect this sort of treatment
-------------
I have now had the car for 4 months and the following has gone wrong:
Both lambda sensors failed, oil return bellows failed, oil/water intercooler split, oil filler pipe broke in two, RMS failed (twice), cam cover seals gone (both sides), header tank split followed by overheating problems nobody has got to grips with, hydraulic tappet failure on o/s bank, MAF sensor failure, windscreen and rear windows surrounds squeaking, front suspension strut tops worn out, front suspension bushes replaced (both sides), front anti-roll bar drop links and bushes needed replacement. Plus a host of small niggles like dash rattles, etc.etc.
You can imagine my patience is at an end!
Interestingly (and the reason that I feel this is relevant to the thread) is that most of the items above seem to fall into the category of design flaws, not wear and tear. Almost all the items are known issues that have been the subject of re-design. As far as I can see, the content of this thread is suggesting failed engines fall into the same category.
------------
I today had a letter from Porsche GB about my BOXTER that need a new engine!! If they cant even get right what car i own what chance have we got of geting any decent answers? May be Alessandro is right may be the next time i get a letter i will be asked if my polo needs a new engine!! The one thing i have to say at least vw group cars as far i know dont fail with 30k on the clock.
--------
FINAL THOUGHTS:
In the UK around 15,000 Porsches are sold per year of those that develop problems. Of these only a small fraction of owners even access the online forums. Of this small number only a minority access the 911uk.com forum. If withing this miniscule number there are so many issues with the reliablity of 996s then is it not the case that the problem is much more prevalent than Porsche admits and as a company producing cars that are in the £65K+ price bracket they should either address the issues or when things go wrong admit their mistake and fix the problem at their own cost?
----------------
I spoke to a mate last night who knows someone with an S plate 996 that had the engine blow up on him soon after he bought it - he has just spent £9000 on having another one fitted!
Porsche are disgraceful - I can't believe they are getting away with this!!
-------------
Hi,
I was looking to buy a used Porsche 996 Carrera 4 but am now hesitating after hearing about peoples experiences with engine problems and the main dealer attitude.
There appears to be a design fault in the 996 engines which can lead to them blowing up - this is not covered by the Porsche warranty and owners are having to pay £10k+ for a new engine to be fitted! I know someone who has had to do this and can give you their details if you like.
-------------
Guys you may be interested in this link.
http://www.europeancarweb.com/longte...porscheupdate/
Its from a US mag that had its 996 C2 loose its engine at 6K. But the main Differance was that Porsche replaced the engine with the minimum of fuss!!!
-------------
Interesting post on BM3W from a guy who sold an M3 for a C4S and then moved to an M3 CSL because the Porsche was too unreliable! Search for "engine replacement" to hear his complaints:
http://www.bm3w.co.uk/ubbthreads/sho...b=5&o=&fpart=1
-----------
I sold my IR/IR M3 for a 996 C4S which I must admitt I had dreamed of for a while (everyone should own a 911 at some point in their life). Car was great but altogether less involving than the M3, even more so now when compared with the CSL. The M3 demands a little more respect (especially in the wet), the sure footedness of the 4 wheel drive Carrera was comforting if a little dull. However for me reliability was the biggest bug bear. Remember I bought the car with 10k miles at 22 months old and kept if for 8 months. The list of problems includes:
Complete engine replacement (following implossion after one week of ownership) because of a poorly executed RMS repair (Edinburgh Porsche Dealership).
Three wheel bearings needing replaced at the same time at 13k
Various electrical faults, bulbs failing, etc.
--------
couldn't agree more with this thread - the sad fact is that porsche engines (including the 3.6, which is carried over into at least one variant of the 997 is unreliable, presumbaly cos its a highly stressed bit of kit.
the porsche attitude towards my 15k, 2 and a half year old model was nothing short of despicable when the engine imploded, the customer service department at reading a hotbed of disinformation and dissembling, something i'd be happy to take to court with them any day.
i wouldn't consider a 997 until the engine is proven to be more reliable than previous. (and until the button splattered interior design is sorted out).
porsche effictively called me a liar, after i've spent £55k on one of their products, so you can see i feel a touch put out. i wish i could put my views to the ceo "Wendeling w**king" or whatever his name is in person, maybe i'll see him at a trade fair and mention my issues with his products to him....
--------------
This catastrophic engine failure problem is caused by a design fault with the oil baffles which causes the engine lubrication to fail whilst taking corners.
The OPC were negligent in failing to diagnose this problem before catastrophic engine failure.
--------------
As a Porsche enthusiast of many years I've been following this thread with an eagle eye. Lola who told you that changing the oil every 3000 miles would cure the 996 engine problems. Whoever it is BSing. There is a fundamental engineering fault here that can't be solved with an oil change.
----------------
I'll join the list of 996 owners with expired engines.
I had the 'Check' light come on and dropped my 996 into STRATSTONES (Wilmslow)for them to take a look at. I was asked to look around the showroom while they checked it out, and an hour later got a bill for 106 quid for work they say they carried out (without even asking me!).
About 100 yards down the road the light came back on. I took it back and no-one could help as it was 5pm and England were about to start a European Cup match.
I took it to Ninemeister, who appear much more knowledgeable and are definately more helpful, and 6500 quid later I had a second-hand engine in to replace the one that had expired through a 'cracked engine liner'.
They told me that:
a. this is a relatively common problem ('there were 22 damaged engines out the back of Stratstones...')
b. the engineering on the new engines is very poor compared to the old air-cooled jobs, with 'flashing' very evident (I think I know what that means)
--------
"Much has also been made of the 996's appetite for engines. A problem with the Lokasil process that
sees the highly porous silicon liner cast into the alloy block, has resulted in the liner material part
company with the local. The only remedy is a new engine, but Porsche are not exactly playing ball with
owners' claims for a replacement powerplant."
-----------
My C4 996 also needed a new engin at 16K miles!!!! 3 years old quoatation £9,750
--------
Was in my local OPC the other day and guess what - another engine problem - the mechanic wouldn't elaborate but he confirmed it needed a NEW ENGINE!!! It was a 2003 C2 Cab!!!
I also had the same problem with my 1998 996 after 22,000 miles again from Stratstones of Wilmslow. I had bought a warranty which covered the cost of the replacement engine but this I believe was paid for by Porsche GB. At the time there was total denial of any previously known problems with this type of engine. There seems to be a culture of secrecy and lack of openness.
----------
Check the latest issue of Excellence. Story about 1999 996 that broke timing belt (and wrecked engine) at 27K miles. Even though out of warranty, Porsche (USA) replaced engine at no cost to owner.
-----------
Not sure about the US article, but there is a new 996 Turbo in AFN Guildford currently having the engine completely rebuilt at Porsche's cost.
The fault was a timing belt that snapped and initially Porsche blamed the driver for over revving the engine on a track day Two weeks on and they have decided to pay for the repairs. Why the change of heart?
--------------
ENGINE REPLACEMENTS FROM PORSCHE
Those of you near the top of this page esp rehan and Pete a word of warning about engine replaced Porsches.
Porsche GB through its Porsche centres replaces the blown engine with two types. Fisrt is the "recon" or "rebuilt" engines that are essentially old blown engines that have been "fixed". These are identified by theie vin numbers having an "X" at the end. The second is a completly new engine that does not have an "X" at the end. Both come with a 2 year warranty but neither may last that long as i am beginning to find out!
The problem is commoner than you think. You need to understand that most porsches are not driven that much, cars that were going to fail in the sub 16k group were fixed by the warranty but its those that are failing at the 30-50k mark that are only now comming through.
Guys the Official Porsche Centres will tell you that their cars do not fail but check out renlist.com and other sites before you buy.
I have been and i guess always will be a Porsche fan but i did not expect this sort of treatment
-------------
I have now had the car for 4 months and the following has gone wrong:
Both lambda sensors failed, oil return bellows failed, oil/water intercooler split, oil filler pipe broke in two, RMS failed (twice), cam cover seals gone (both sides), header tank split followed by overheating problems nobody has got to grips with, hydraulic tappet failure on o/s bank, MAF sensor failure, windscreen and rear windows surrounds squeaking, front suspension strut tops worn out, front suspension bushes replaced (both sides), front anti-roll bar drop links and bushes needed replacement. Plus a host of small niggles like dash rattles, etc.etc.
You can imagine my patience is at an end!
Interestingly (and the reason that I feel this is relevant to the thread) is that most of the items above seem to fall into the category of design flaws, not wear and tear. Almost all the items are known issues that have been the subject of re-design. As far as I can see, the content of this thread is suggesting failed engines fall into the same category.
------------
I today had a letter from Porsche GB about my BOXTER that need a new engine!! If they cant even get right what car i own what chance have we got of geting any decent answers? May be Alessandro is right may be the next time i get a letter i will be asked if my polo needs a new engine!! The one thing i have to say at least vw group cars as far i know dont fail with 30k on the clock.
--------
FINAL THOUGHTS:
In the UK around 15,000 Porsches are sold per year of those that develop problems. Of these only a small fraction of owners even access the online forums. Of this small number only a minority access the 911uk.com forum. If withing this miniscule number there are so many issues with the reliablity of 996s then is it not the case that the problem is much more prevalent than Porsche admits and as a company producing cars that are in the £65K+ price bracket they should either address the issues or when things go wrong admit their mistake and fix the problem at their own cost?
----------------
I spoke to a mate last night who knows someone with an S plate 996 that had the engine blow up on him soon after he bought it - he has just spent £9000 on having another one fitted!
Porsche are disgraceful - I can't believe they are getting away with this!!
-------------
Hi,
I was looking to buy a used Porsche 996 Carrera 4 but am now hesitating after hearing about peoples experiences with engine problems and the main dealer attitude.
There appears to be a design fault in the 996 engines which can lead to them blowing up - this is not covered by the Porsche warranty and owners are having to pay £10k+ for a new engine to be fitted! I know someone who has had to do this and can give you their details if you like.
-------------
Guys you may be interested in this link.
http://www.europeancarweb.com/longte...porscheupdate/
Its from a US mag that had its 996 C2 loose its engine at 6K. But the main Differance was that Porsche replaced the engine with the minimum of fuss!!!
-------------
Interesting post on BM3W from a guy who sold an M3 for a C4S and then moved to an M3 CSL because the Porsche was too unreliable! Search for "engine replacement" to hear his complaints:
http://www.bm3w.co.uk/ubbthreads/sho...b=5&o=&fpart=1
-----------
I sold my IR/IR M3 for a 996 C4S which I must admitt I had dreamed of for a while (everyone should own a 911 at some point in their life). Car was great but altogether less involving than the M3, even more so now when compared with the CSL. The M3 demands a little more respect (especially in the wet), the sure footedness of the 4 wheel drive Carrera was comforting if a little dull. However for me reliability was the biggest bug bear. Remember I bought the car with 10k miles at 22 months old and kept if for 8 months. The list of problems includes:
Complete engine replacement (following implossion after one week of ownership) because of a poorly executed RMS repair (Edinburgh Porsche Dealership).
Three wheel bearings needing replaced at the same time at 13k
Various electrical faults, bulbs failing, etc.
--------
couldn't agree more with this thread - the sad fact is that porsche engines (including the 3.6, which is carried over into at least one variant of the 997 is unreliable, presumbaly cos its a highly stressed bit of kit.
the porsche attitude towards my 15k, 2 and a half year old model was nothing short of despicable when the engine imploded, the customer service department at reading a hotbed of disinformation and dissembling, something i'd be happy to take to court with them any day.
i wouldn't consider a 997 until the engine is proven to be more reliable than previous. (and until the button splattered interior design is sorted out).
porsche effictively called me a liar, after i've spent £55k on one of their products, so you can see i feel a touch put out. i wish i could put my views to the ceo "Wendeling w**king" or whatever his name is in person, maybe i'll see him at a trade fair and mention my issues with his products to him....
--------------
This catastrophic engine failure problem is caused by a design fault with the oil baffles which causes the engine lubrication to fail whilst taking corners.
The OPC were negligent in failing to diagnose this problem before catastrophic engine failure.
--------------
As a Porsche enthusiast of many years I've been following this thread with an eagle eye. Lola who told you that changing the oil every 3000 miles would cure the 996 engine problems. Whoever it is BSing. There is a fundamental engineering fault here that can't be solved with an oil change.
----------------
I'll join the list of 996 owners with expired engines.
I had the 'Check' light come on and dropped my 996 into STRATSTONES (Wilmslow)for them to take a look at. I was asked to look around the showroom while they checked it out, and an hour later got a bill for 106 quid for work they say they carried out (without even asking me!).
About 100 yards down the road the light came back on. I took it back and no-one could help as it was 5pm and England were about to start a European Cup match.
I took it to Ninemeister, who appear much more knowledgeable and are definately more helpful, and 6500 quid later I had a second-hand engine in to replace the one that had expired through a 'cracked engine liner'.
They told me that:
a. this is a relatively common problem ('there were 22 damaged engines out the back of Stratstones...')
b. the engineering on the new engines is very poor compared to the old air-cooled jobs, with 'flashing' very evident (I think I know what that means)
--------
"Much has also been made of the 996's appetite for engines. A problem with the Lokasil process that
sees the highly porous silicon liner cast into the alloy block, has resulted in the liner material part
company with the local. The only remedy is a new engine, but Porsche are not exactly playing ball with
owners' claims for a replacement powerplant."
-----------
My C4 996 also needed a new engin at 16K miles!!!! 3 years old quoatation £9,750
--------
Was in my local OPC the other day and guess what - another engine problem - the mechanic wouldn't elaborate but he confirmed it needed a NEW ENGINE!!! It was a 2003 C2 Cab!!!
10-17-2004, 11:35 PM
#97
Instructor
"a service history of being in the shop for 47 repairs during the warranty period is unacceptable in my opinion."
Please, how did this car not have a "lemon" history? I think we have all been sucked into this thread by an articulate 14 year old with a vivid imagination! I think he's the only one laughing harder than me.
I still plan on purchasing an 03' or 04' cab in the next few months and this thread has had zero impact on my thinking.
Ha!
Please, how did this car not have a "lemon" history? I think we have all been sucked into this thread by an articulate 14 year old with a vivid imagination! I think he's the only one laughing harder than me.
I still plan on purchasing an 03' or 04' cab in the next few months and this thread has had zero impact on my thinking.
Ha!
10-18-2004, 12:28 AM
#99
Pro
Thread Starter
Skeptics
To put all you skeptics to rest.. I managed to scrounge up a few of the receipts.. right now they are all over the house, but here's a few of many, from various repair shops and dealers, parts suppliers, etc... I have many more but can't find them right now.. here's a few I found that should atleast indicate that i'm not making this all up... these are just partial cut-outs of each repair bill, not indicating close to everything that went wrong... some of you wanted, receipts indicating i was a porsche owner, and hopefully this should prove just that...
I don't have a scanner, so I used my digital camera and put together a collage crossing out cc details and my name for obvious reasons... and yes many of those receipts starting out with 2s and 3s, are all in thousands of dollars, not hundreds... and i have yet to count the additional $18,000+ i'm going to encounter to replace the now blown up second engine... or the money I put on my credit card for other payments, for additional costs for the 2nd engine, from other companies and various other receipts lying around the house, cash payments, parts costs from 3rd parties, etc.. for countless thousands of dollars more in repairs, countless towings, etc...
keep in mind those lists are just page one of many for most times the car has been in the shop... I don't feel like spending hours, finding and organizing all the receipts, just to prove my point.. If you don't believe me, like I said before, that's fine... I'll manage to live...
keep in mind these are all from about 1,000 miles of driving... add another 3 or 4 pictures like this, and you will see why i'm so upset with porsche right now...
...and the response from porsche north america and their dealerships after contrfronted with all of this? not in the same words, but basically...
"not our problem.. our 996s are all perfect without any defects. It's your fault and you will have to pay full dealer cost to get our perfectly working vehicle fixed because of the problems you caused at an authorized porsche dealer..."
I have yet to hear of many high mileage 996 owners... as one can tell from all those postings of engine failures in the UK forums... within the next few years, I have a strong feeling, the number of failed engines, will outweight the number of 996 and 986s produced as the mileage gets up into the 70ks and 80ks. It's a fault engine design, and I can't wait until a lawyer brings a class action suit against porsche, for their negligent actions in not admitting fault of any kind and blaming it on the driver, and making the owner pay for their mistakes.
When a single porsche dealer has 22 blown 996 engines in the back lot that haven't been picked up yet and are beyond repair, that each individual had to pay $18,000+ to replace, that should tell you something right there... (as indicated by the individual in my previous posting about his blown engine...)
One must keep in mind this isn't a $3,000 honda replacement engine. If your engine blows, head gasket leaks, or any of the 25+ various problems that have caused the engine to have to be replaced, you will be out $15,000 to $18,000 cash if you're 996 is a 98(euro)-01, and is over 4 years of being purchased, regardless of mileage, unless you have an extended warranty, depending if you're core is usable, cash out of pocket... those without warranty... Insurance companies don't cover it, I checked... and most extended warranty companies, won't cover it either. I have yet to find one that will... I wish you all luck...
it's an awesome car, but porsche needs to admit to their mistakes, and replace all engines that have gone bad at their expense for their faulty design... and quit blaming their customers, saying it's their fault, or their driving, etc... with 20 vehicles previously, I have never once had an engine go bad on me... and i've had several vehicles with 150,000+ miles... an engine should not go out at 50k miles, 30k, 9k, 6k, etc.. and all these other random numbers as indicated by various other 996 owners... there is a fault within the engine and porsche is making it's customers pay for the damage that they are responsible for, that they still haven't corrected yet, even in the 997, as it's essentially the same engine and will most likely encounter the same problems.
it seems to be they have trained all their reps at 1-800-POR-SCHE to never admit guilt or sympathy, or indicate it is their fault by any means, and they are all like robots. All 5 times... "Bring it to the nearest Authorized Porsche dealer and after you replace the engine, send us a letter and we will see what we can do. There's nothing else we can do for you." No sympathy, no emotion, no care, no communication with a dealer, no discount in parts or labor, no assistance.. just.. "spend $18,000 so we can make more money off you for a new engine and write us a letter..." all i can say is... bastards...
after reading the letters from all the other dozens that have gone through the same thing i have, porsche needs to get their act together, and they need to be sued. I'm sure there's plenty of you with 98-01 996s without warranties running scared out there.. and you will encounter the exact same treatment we all have when your engine blows... they will blame it on you, and then ask $18,000 cash to fix it and write a letter if you have any concerns.... once is one thing, but two faulty engines in 1000 miles... now that really pushed me over the limit... especially with the 9,000 mile replacement engine going bad on me..
and the dealers and porsche say that the car is perfect, and it's the driver at fault... when most all of the time, it's been proven that's clearly not the case, clearly infuriates me even more. How can a cylinder falling out of it's sleeve on my second engine with 9,000 miles, or a rod busting out a hole and causing a fire on my first engine while driving in 4th gear at 70mph in traffic on cruise control be my fault?
- BobPorsche996 (for the time being.. seriously debating on an 05 sl500)
I don't have a scanner, so I used my digital camera and put together a collage crossing out cc details and my name for obvious reasons... and yes many of those receipts starting out with 2s and 3s, are all in thousands of dollars, not hundreds... and i have yet to count the additional $18,000+ i'm going to encounter to replace the now blown up second engine... or the money I put on my credit card for other payments, for additional costs for the 2nd engine, from other companies and various other receipts lying around the house, cash payments, parts costs from 3rd parties, etc.. for countless thousands of dollars more in repairs, countless towings, etc...
keep in mind those lists are just page one of many for most times the car has been in the shop... I don't feel like spending hours, finding and organizing all the receipts, just to prove my point.. If you don't believe me, like I said before, that's fine... I'll manage to live...
keep in mind these are all from about 1,000 miles of driving... add another 3 or 4 pictures like this, and you will see why i'm so upset with porsche right now...
...and the response from porsche north america and their dealerships after contrfronted with all of this? not in the same words, but basically...
"not our problem.. our 996s are all perfect without any defects. It's your fault and you will have to pay full dealer cost to get our perfectly working vehicle fixed because of the problems you caused at an authorized porsche dealer..."
I have yet to hear of many high mileage 996 owners... as one can tell from all those postings of engine failures in the UK forums... within the next few years, I have a strong feeling, the number of failed engines, will outweight the number of 996 and 986s produced as the mileage gets up into the 70ks and 80ks. It's a fault engine design, and I can't wait until a lawyer brings a class action suit against porsche, for their negligent actions in not admitting fault of any kind and blaming it on the driver, and making the owner pay for their mistakes.
When a single porsche dealer has 22 blown 996 engines in the back lot that haven't been picked up yet and are beyond repair, that each individual had to pay $18,000+ to replace, that should tell you something right there... (as indicated by the individual in my previous posting about his blown engine...)
One must keep in mind this isn't a $3,000 honda replacement engine. If your engine blows, head gasket leaks, or any of the 25+ various problems that have caused the engine to have to be replaced, you will be out $15,000 to $18,000 cash if you're 996 is a 98(euro)-01, and is over 4 years of being purchased, regardless of mileage, unless you have an extended warranty, depending if you're core is usable, cash out of pocket... those without warranty... Insurance companies don't cover it, I checked... and most extended warranty companies, won't cover it either. I have yet to find one that will... I wish you all luck...
it's an awesome car, but porsche needs to admit to their mistakes, and replace all engines that have gone bad at their expense for their faulty design... and quit blaming their customers, saying it's their fault, or their driving, etc... with 20 vehicles previously, I have never once had an engine go bad on me... and i've had several vehicles with 150,000+ miles... an engine should not go out at 50k miles, 30k, 9k, 6k, etc.. and all these other random numbers as indicated by various other 996 owners... there is a fault within the engine and porsche is making it's customers pay for the damage that they are responsible for, that they still haven't corrected yet, even in the 997, as it's essentially the same engine and will most likely encounter the same problems.
it seems to be they have trained all their reps at 1-800-POR-SCHE to never admit guilt or sympathy, or indicate it is their fault by any means, and they are all like robots. All 5 times... "Bring it to the nearest Authorized Porsche dealer and after you replace the engine, send us a letter and we will see what we can do. There's nothing else we can do for you." No sympathy, no emotion, no care, no communication with a dealer, no discount in parts or labor, no assistance.. just.. "spend $18,000 so we can make more money off you for a new engine and write us a letter..." all i can say is... bastards...
after reading the letters from all the other dozens that have gone through the same thing i have, porsche needs to get their act together, and they need to be sued. I'm sure there's plenty of you with 98-01 996s without warranties running scared out there.. and you will encounter the exact same treatment we all have when your engine blows... they will blame it on you, and then ask $18,000 cash to fix it and write a letter if you have any concerns.... once is one thing, but two faulty engines in 1000 miles... now that really pushed me over the limit... especially with the 9,000 mile replacement engine going bad on me..
and the dealers and porsche say that the car is perfect, and it's the driver at fault... when most all of the time, it's been proven that's clearly not the case, clearly infuriates me even more. How can a cylinder falling out of it's sleeve on my second engine with 9,000 miles, or a rod busting out a hole and causing a fire on my first engine while driving in 4th gear at 70mph in traffic on cruise control be my fault?
- BobPorsche996 (for the time being.. seriously debating on an 05 sl500)
Last edited by bobporsche996; 10-18-2004 at 07:04 AM.
10-18-2004, 07:54 AM
#102
Burning Brakes
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Oh damn 
...I feel sick to my stomach now.
You really have some luck Bob, got me thinking if I should get rid of my car now and go back to the aircooled beasts...
sorry for doubting a fellow 996 owner in the previous thread.
...I feel sick to my stomach now.You really have some luck Bob, got me thinking if I should get rid of my car now and go back to the aircooled beasts...
sorry for doubting a fellow 996 owner in the previous thread.
10-18-2004, 02:16 PM
#103
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Those receipts look to be maybe 20% of the claimed repairs paid to date.
Anyway, Porsche's position rightly or wrongly on this car is when it was a $100k car it came with a 4/50k warranty which they honored 47 times. The $39k car (60% off) did not come with that warranty. Further, you will find Porsche much more receptive when the services are done at a Porsche dealer instead of an independant. While it costs a crapload more, they see it as being loyal and are more willing to help in the case of goodwill type situations. As it stands now, you bought a very used Porsche from a Ford dealer for which Porsche received zero, then had it serviced at an independant for which Porsche received zero, and now are looking to Porsche for help.
Your situation is a very sad one and I certainly empathize with you, but unfortunately it appears you will end up on the short end of the stick. Your best bet is to repair the car that should have gone through the Lemon process LONG ago and trade it in at a non Pcar dealer for re-auction. The extra $8k you were given on the SLK trade leads me to believe someone (maybe even you) knew the history of this car which may even be a previously lemoned vehicle. Are you certain the car was not lemoned? Was the title washed from another state in which it was previously lemoned? No way a car goes in 47 times without being lemoned. Those buying $100k cars aren't that stupid to put up with the time and inconvenience that goes along with 47 warranty trips (X2 to pick it up) without lemoning the car! Then again, if the state in which the car was purchased has weak (or no) lemon laws, maybe that's why the car found it's way to auction and ultimately a Ford dealers lot.
Really though, you need to fix the car and dump it. While 996s are most def a long way from perfect (though my 4 year old has been), yours is an extreme exception and I'd cut my losses if I were you.
Anyway, Porsche's position rightly or wrongly on this car is when it was a $100k car it came with a 4/50k warranty which they honored 47 times. The $39k car (60% off) did not come with that warranty. Further, you will find Porsche much more receptive when the services are done at a Porsche dealer instead of an independant. While it costs a crapload more, they see it as being loyal and are more willing to help in the case of goodwill type situations. As it stands now, you bought a very used Porsche from a Ford dealer for which Porsche received zero, then had it serviced at an independant for which Porsche received zero, and now are looking to Porsche for help.
Your situation is a very sad one and I certainly empathize with you, but unfortunately it appears you will end up on the short end of the stick. Your best bet is to repair the car that should have gone through the Lemon process LONG ago and trade it in at a non Pcar dealer for re-auction. The extra $8k you were given on the SLK trade leads me to believe someone (maybe even you) knew the history of this car which may even be a previously lemoned vehicle. Are you certain the car was not lemoned? Was the title washed from another state in which it was previously lemoned? No way a car goes in 47 times without being lemoned. Those buying $100k cars aren't that stupid to put up with the time and inconvenience that goes along with 47 warranty trips (X2 to pick it up) without lemoning the car! Then again, if the state in which the car was purchased has weak (or no) lemon laws, maybe that's why the car found it's way to auction and ultimately a Ford dealers lot.
Really though, you need to fix the car and dump it. While 996s are most def a long way from perfect (though my 4 year old has been), yours is an extreme exception and I'd cut my losses if I were you.
Last edited by ben in lj; 10-18-2004 at 02:31 PM.
10-18-2004, 05:42 PM
#105
Rennlist Member
I was amazed by a lot of the posters doubting Bob. If he wasn't genuine he wouldn't have come back to repeatedly stick up for himself. I for one didn't doubt Bob since he posted repeatedly at pains to try and explain the situation the best he could. If I was a tosser I would have given up by the first or second post. I hope you get this sorted one way or another Bob - a shame you will carry a tarnished image of Porsche for a long time.
Harry
Harry