Is RMS really that big of a deal
06-25-2004, 07:46 PM
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Dough
I would love to send you the contact details and pics of the guys over here who have had similar problems but your mail box is full.
If you want to PM me your details i will be more than happy to supply the names of 3 of the guys, I have manage to track down, from this months run of 5 blown motors at just my Porsche centre
I would love to send you the contact details and pics of the guys over here who have had similar problems but your mail box is full.
If you want to PM me your details i will be more than happy to supply the names of 3 of the guys, I have manage to track down, from this months run of 5 blown motors at just my Porsche centre
06-25-2004, 07:52 PM
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Doug H,
I have owned two Porsches, an '00 Boxster S and my current car, an '02 C4 CAB. I have had two RMS leaks in each. Fortunately, all of them were fixed under warranty. With regard to ultimate engine failure, I think what many fail to realize is that no one, not even Porsche, knows if these replacement seals are going to last. They just have not been in the cars long enough. And what is going to happen when a car with a replacement seal starts leaking at 60K miles and Porsche refuses to cover the cost of the repair. Worst yet, if it doesn't pass the measurement test and your technician tells you that you need a new engine. Again, at your own expense.
Personally, I do think that there will be a class action lawsuit against Porsche - just not for a while yet.
I have owned two Porsches, an '00 Boxster S and my current car, an '02 C4 CAB. I have had two RMS leaks in each. Fortunately, all of them were fixed under warranty. With regard to ultimate engine failure, I think what many fail to realize is that no one, not even Porsche, knows if these replacement seals are going to last. They just have not been in the cars long enough. And what is going to happen when a car with a replacement seal starts leaking at 60K miles and Porsche refuses to cover the cost of the repair. Worst yet, if it doesn't pass the measurement test and your technician tells you that you need a new engine. Again, at your own expense.
Personally, I do think that there will be a class action lawsuit against Porsche - just not for a while yet.
06-25-2004, 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by Doug H
n4das, 5 engine replacemnts in last month. Hahaha, you are overdoing it a bit now.
RE: RMS eventually leading to engine replacement
I am pretty good friends with someone at my dealer and to my knowledge they have replaced only one motor in a new 996 and they actually called me to see if I knew any one that wanted to buy it at an unreal huge price reduction.
n4das, 5 engine replacemnts in last month. Hahaha, you are overdoing it a bit now.
RE: RMS eventually leading to engine replacement
I am pretty good friends with someone at my dealer and to my knowledge they have replaced only one motor in a new 996 and they actually called me to see if I knew any one that wanted to buy it at an unreal huge price reduction.
06-25-2004, 08:51 PM
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I don't disagree that a new engine hurts value in a new car. I don't think anyone wittingly or unwittingly would disagree with that, but that was not the question posed. I was just asking if you or if anyone had any information to back up the statement that an RMS leak requires or eventually requires a new motor or are you just speculating on that. I asked some pretty straight forward questions about data or information to support your contention, but no-one addresses or answers those questions.
06-25-2004, 08:58 PM
#65
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Dough,
you and I both know that there is no real way to get any stats on this problem. The only people who can compile such stats are Porsche AG themselves since they have on computer the service history of all the cars worldwide. Also, we here at rennlist/renntech/funcarsonline and so on are only but a miniscule of the total 996 and 986 owners out there. So even if we got info from everyone on rennlist who owned these cars to build stats from it would not give a true picture.
WHat Ican tell you though is that since I started the RMS campaign I get email or PMd on a daily basis from those who have had or are having RMS and/or engine problems. In fact many have also told me about their gearbox problems too but that's another story. In just over a week, I have no less than 23 x 996 and 18 986 board members of one kind or another who have joined up to support the cause and are displaying the "failed" RMS Club image in their signature. None of this I know draws a true picture but it sure indicates that even for a small group of 996 owners, this RMS problem is a big issue......and that's the topic of your thread.
Again, I reiterate the real problem is not the RMS (well actually it is). The real issue though is that Porsche AG should acknowledge the flaw and back it up by supporting its customer base and fixing it under warranty with no questions asked. With all the press talking about Porsche being so successful and making huge profits, surely it would do them no harm to reinvest some of that profit into its loyal customers. If they did that they would be doing themselves and theur customers a favour since we would all be happy in the end......at least I am sure many of us would think nothing of buying into the 997. But many of us don't trust the 997 or Porsche's backupo service so many existing customers are goind to shy away from the 997. Currently its a lose lose situation instead of a win win one. Someone at Porsche AG will wake up to this fact. It may take a class action law suit to do it, but I favour combined worldwide pressure from customers would be just as good.
To give you some perspective: PCGB is currently carrying out a survey of the RMS problem with UK Boxster owners. I am not sure why they didn;t include the 996. Both GT Porsche mags and 911 Purely Porsche regularly mention the RMS problem in articles (probably also US mags but i don't get them). Jerremy Clarkson of the BBC TOP GEAR fame also often mentions it on his show and he loves Porsches. Just do a search in Google for "Porsche 996 RMS problem" and you will surprised how often its mentioned. Believe me it is a big issue. Sadly I can't give you statistical proof. Only Porsche can do that. But will they
you and I both know that there is no real way to get any stats on this problem. The only people who can compile such stats are Porsche AG themselves since they have on computer the service history of all the cars worldwide. Also, we here at rennlist/renntech/funcarsonline and so on are only but a miniscule of the total 996 and 986 owners out there. So even if we got info from everyone on rennlist who owned these cars to build stats from it would not give a true picture.
WHat Ican tell you though is that since I started the RMS campaign I get email or PMd on a daily basis from those who have had or are having RMS and/or engine problems. In fact many have also told me about their gearbox problems too but that's another story. In just over a week, I have no less than 23 x 996 and 18 986 board members of one kind or another who have joined up to support the cause and are displaying the "failed" RMS Club image in their signature. None of this I know draws a true picture but it sure indicates that even for a small group of 996 owners, this RMS problem is a big issue......and that's the topic of your thread.
Again, I reiterate the real problem is not the RMS (well actually it is). The real issue though is that Porsche AG should acknowledge the flaw and back it up by supporting its customer base and fixing it under warranty with no questions asked. With all the press talking about Porsche being so successful and making huge profits, surely it would do them no harm to reinvest some of that profit into its loyal customers. If they did that they would be doing themselves and theur customers a favour since we would all be happy in the end......at least I am sure many of us would think nothing of buying into the 997. But many of us don't trust the 997 or Porsche's backupo service so many existing customers are goind to shy away from the 997. Currently its a lose lose situation instead of a win win one. Someone at Porsche AG will wake up to this fact. It may take a class action law suit to do it, but I favour combined worldwide pressure from customers would be just as good.
To give you some perspective: PCGB is currently carrying out a survey of the RMS problem with UK Boxster owners. I am not sure why they didn;t include the 996. Both GT Porsche mags and 911 Purely Porsche regularly mention the RMS problem in articles (probably also US mags but i don't get them). Jerremy Clarkson of the BBC TOP GEAR fame also often mentions it on his show and he loves Porsches. Just do a search in Google for "Porsche 996 RMS problem" and you will surprised how often its mentioned. Believe me it is a big issue. Sadly I can't give you statistical proof. Only Porsche can do that. But will they
06-25-2004, 09:51 PM
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That's cool. Not really answer the question, but I understand it may be difficult to answer. Torags, however, made a statement to the effect that an RMS problem was a $ 10,000 problem for those out of warranty. I was curious if there was any reliable data or information to back that up. That's all.
I would think that there are a bunch of 99/00 996s and 97/98/99/00 Boxters floating around these boards that are out of warranty and I was just curious to know if anyone has actually reported here that they had to pay $ 10,000 to fix and RMS issue out of warranty or had to pay for a new engine in a 996 or Boxter that was out of warranty due to RMS issues.
Either people are reporting here or telling you guys they have had to pay $ 10,000 to repair an RMS issue out of warranty or they are not. If they are not, then it would seem a little misleading to make others believe that an RMS issue out of warranty is going to cost them $ 10,000.
I would think that there are a bunch of 99/00 996s and 97/98/99/00 Boxters floating around these boards that are out of warranty and I was just curious to know if anyone has actually reported here that they had to pay $ 10,000 to fix and RMS issue out of warranty or had to pay for a new engine in a 996 or Boxter that was out of warranty due to RMS issues.
Either people are reporting here or telling you guys they have had to pay $ 10,000 to repair an RMS issue out of warranty or they are not. If they are not, then it would seem a little misleading to make others believe that an RMS issue out of warranty is going to cost them $ 10,000.
06-26-2004, 08:58 AM
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Well an answer to these problems would be to get a baseline of whats going on in the world
I have set up an email address penteluk@yahoo.com please send me the details of your car and please get others that you know to do the same. I need all those that have had total engine replacements
what i need to know is
1. The reg of car and date of first reg so that we are not acused of making up the numbers
2. The mileage and how many years old the car was when it failed.
3. What the technical problem that caused the failure eg cylinder cracked
4. How much it cost you
5. offers and time scale from Porsche eg i was first offered £0 by Porsche GB the £800 a week later
6 If you had to fist pay for the technical inspection
I will try to get an electronic profoma but just mail me at that address. Its real and i am serious about getting this going
I have set up an email address penteluk@yahoo.com please send me the details of your car and please get others that you know to do the same. I need all those that have had total engine replacements
what i need to know is
1. The reg of car and date of first reg so that we are not acused of making up the numbers
2. The mileage and how many years old the car was when it failed.
3. What the technical problem that caused the failure eg cylinder cracked
4. How much it cost you
5. offers and time scale from Porsche eg i was first offered £0 by Porsche GB the £800 a week later
6 If you had to fist pay for the technical inspection
I will try to get an electronic profoma but just mail me at that address. Its real and i am serious about getting this going
Last edited by n4das; 06-26-2004 at 11:10 AM.
06-26-2004, 11:39 AM
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Hahaha, that is great. A netrual and unbiased third-party administrating the results of a secret poll. We ought to let Busch or Kerry depending on which side you are on count their own ballots.
I was just curious if the people making the statements had any information to support the statements. Trying to go out and specifically gather information to prove a point or to prove a statement already made does not seem to be the proper scientific methodology to obtain accurate or reliable data. Relying on people to self report will probably be skewed as those with problems are more likely to report and heck, I could go get a Vin# off ebay and send that to you if I had an axe to grind or an agenda.
If there were a whole lot of engine replacements going on, it seems we would hear something about that from the owners who actually post on here.
I also question whether you have an agenda or an axe to grind based on our allegations in this thread and based on the fact that you may have registered just to respond to this thread. It would be better methodology to randomly pick a group of Porsche owners and have them complete a survey. Scouser said a survey is being done and I trust those results will be more meaningful and inherently more reliable than that what you are proposing.
Questionable or unreliable data would actually do little to serve anyone's purpose at this point and believe it or not, I am on Scouser's side as to everything he says. I also probably agree with alot of Scouser's points. I was more curious about or interested in learning more about the seriousness of the failure than anything.
BTW, I am done here. I am sounding too much like the CEO of Porsche or a sales manager which is not my intention. I was really just attempting to put this issue into perspective for a buddy who was asking me about 996s in general. Didn't want to start WWIII.
I was just curious if the people making the statements had any information to support the statements. Trying to go out and specifically gather information to prove a point or to prove a statement already made does not seem to be the proper scientific methodology to obtain accurate or reliable data. Relying on people to self report will probably be skewed as those with problems are more likely to report and heck, I could go get a Vin# off ebay and send that to you if I had an axe to grind or an agenda.
If there were a whole lot of engine replacements going on, it seems we would hear something about that from the owners who actually post on here.
I also question whether you have an agenda or an axe to grind based on our allegations in this thread and based on the fact that you may have registered just to respond to this thread. It would be better methodology to randomly pick a group of Porsche owners and have them complete a survey. Scouser said a survey is being done and I trust those results will be more meaningful and inherently more reliable than that what you are proposing.
Questionable or unreliable data would actually do little to serve anyone's purpose at this point and believe it or not, I am on Scouser's side as to everything he says. I also probably agree with alot of Scouser's points. I was more curious about or interested in learning more about the seriousness of the failure than anything.
BTW, I am done here. I am sounding too much like the CEO of Porsche or a sales manager which is not my intention. I was really just attempting to put this issue into perspective for a buddy who was asking me about 996s in general. Didn't want to start WWIII.
Last edited by Doug H; 06-26-2004 at 11:58 AM.
06-26-2004, 12:45 PM
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Dough
As always you miss the point. If i was so inaccurate with my patients i would be sued!
This is only a method to obtain those people who are willing to partake in such a survey. As for scientic stdies i am well aware having publised a few the step needed.
I would be glad for an independant third party to do this but no one else seems to want to take the responsiblity.
The issue here is that most of these faults were fixed during warranty as i am getting details from people
As always you miss the point. If i was so inaccurate with my patients i would be sued!
This is only a method to obtain those people who are willing to partake in such a survey. As for scientic stdies i am well aware having publised a few the step needed.
I would be glad for an independant third party to do this but no one else seems to want to take the responsiblity.
The issue here is that most of these faults were fixed during warranty as i am getting details from people
06-26-2004, 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by Doug H
BTW, I am done here. I am sounding too much like the CEO of Porsche or a sales manager which is not my intention. I was really just attempting to put this issue into perspective for a buddy who was asking me about 996s in general. Didn't want to start WWIII.
BTW, I am done here. I am sounding too much like the CEO of Porsche or a sales manager which is not my intention. I was really just attempting to put this issue into perspective for a buddy who was asking me about 996s in general. Didn't want to start WWIII.
The full effect of this issue is years away. Pcars are not driven much & many are laid up for long periods. PAG acknowledges this by selling a drip charger. So even if some 99s are out of warranty now; because of low use it will be years away.
Now Doug. You have been knocking around your office looking for something to do, since your last homerun. This may be it. But let let the pot simmer. Most don't know it here, but you may be da man...
If I were you, I would collect the data & the name contacts - you never know.
BTW - The Cayenne was released in Europe & England prior tothe US. I wonder if the 996s were. If so, is there a correlation between cracked cylinders and first off the line? Hmmm.............
06-26-2004, 12:52 PM
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I have no agenda or axe to grind just want information thats all.
I only deal with fact i have to in my job
I am sure many of the members would take offence to the suggestion that they may in some way lie about what is essentially a problem that can be faced by us all
I only deal with fact i have to in my job
I am sure many of the members would take offence to the suggestion that they may in some way lie about what is essentially a problem that can be faced by us all
06-26-2004, 01:00 PM
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As for the evidence here in the uk so as i know all of us have had to get independant inspectors to examine the porsches and strip them down
I am looking at £2k or 40hours of labour before i even get as far as Porsche taking any notice. The Porsche centre thinks that its a total waste of mine and their time but Porsche wont listen!!!
This is what, at the moment small group of us, have had to face.
I am looking at £2k or 40hours of labour before i even get as far as Porsche taking any notice. The Porsche centre thinks that its a total waste of mine and their time but Porsche wont listen!!!
This is what, at the moment small group of us, have had to face.
06-26-2004, 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by n4das
I have no agenda or axe to grind just want information thats all.
I only deal with fact i have to in my job
I am sure many of the members would take offence to the suggestion that they may in some way lie about what is essentially a problem that can be faced by us all
I have no agenda or axe to grind just want information thats all.
I only deal with fact i have to in my job
I am sure many of the members would take offence to the suggestion that they may in some way lie about what is essentially a problem that can be faced by us all
Hummm. Perhaps a good gauge to recognize this as a problem would be to compare it to the number of failures/model for a stuatory recall (wire harness). While PAG would not be legally responsible - that might be acceptable in a civil matter.
Hummm.... I wonder who could give us an educated opinion on that????
I'm noodling with contacting The CA attorney general and requesting a disclosure by PCNA of the defect on all new & used Pcars sold in CA. Does anyone think that under that threat PAG would warranty those engines?
06-26-2004, 02:08 PM
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I said I was done, but curiosity killed the cat and I am not going to bicker any more.
This is not legal advice of anything, just me kind of summing up everything that has already been said by others in this thread (not that I agree with or disagree with, just conversing). Lets assume purely hypothetically that the RMS issue really did mean a new engine was called for, but Porsche only chooses to keep replacing the seal until the warranty runs out and then the customer gets told, "well you need a new engine" only once the warranty runs out. Again, I have no reason to believe or disbelieve that is what is happening, but . . . under that hypothetical, are you saying the AG would seemingly need to obtain that type of information from Porsche about engine replacements before and after warranty to draw conclusions about a consumer protection act type of issue. This information could go a long way in making people feel more secure about their 996s if, as I believe, it will show a low incidence in engine replacements, but I may be dead wrong about the numbers.
This is not legal advice of anything, just me kind of summing up everything that has already been said by others in this thread (not that I agree with or disagree with, just conversing). Lets assume purely hypothetically that the RMS issue really did mean a new engine was called for, but Porsche only chooses to keep replacing the seal until the warranty runs out and then the customer gets told, "well you need a new engine" only once the warranty runs out. Again, I have no reason to believe or disbelieve that is what is happening, but . . . under that hypothetical, are you saying the AG would seemingly need to obtain that type of information from Porsche about engine replacements before and after warranty to draw conclusions about a consumer protection act type of issue. This information could go a long way in making people feel more secure about their 996s if, as I believe, it will show a low incidence in engine replacements, but I may be dead wrong about the numbers.
Last edited by Doug H; 06-26-2004 at 02:28 PM.
06-26-2004, 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by Doug H
I said I was done, but curiosity killed the cat and I am not going to bicker any more.
I said I was done, but curiosity killed the cat and I am not going to bicker any more.
I think the AG would require at the least, evidence of occurances and a number of some auto experts (2-3)*; before they would request further info.
In CA the AG is very political (he ran for Gov). He loves high image (newsworthy) issues. If a staff member could be persuaded to bring it to him - I think there is a pretty good chance it could a request. PCNA would respond in a consumer benefical manner. The publicity in their largest market would be devasting. New York might follow CA (they are consumer friendly).
*If you look at the MY96 engine, the biggest difference from the previous are waterways and main bearing housings. The main bearings are encased in iron casings that are bolted to the aluminum block. PAG says the advantage of doing that is to have less of a biomass differential (during high heat) between a revolving friction producing crank and the bearings.
Steel &aluminum have different volumes/rates of expansion/contraction. Additionally, PAG says it quieter (was there slap in the 911s includes TTs).
The trouble may lie in the bearing casing attachments. The 997 block has been redesigned. I hope they cured the problem.
Your TT 996 is the old block. No RMS.