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M96 3-chain engine stuck

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Old 02-03-2022 | 08:13 PM
  #16  
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For some reason I'm not getting notices that I have responses to this thread, or I would have thanked you all earlier for your wise advice. And I agree, Failure is a tough teacher. I've gotten to know him on this project very well.

Yelcab, thanks for the link to the cam timing video. I have watched several of those videos now and have learned a lot. And, I now have the proper tools, made of steel, not aluminum. My confusion about the two-piece tool is that the Porsche manual for the 3-chain engine states that after the initial 50 lbs. of torque, the mechanic must remove the tool before adding the 110 addition degrees of angle torque. The manual did not mention to counter hold the intake cam with the big crescent wrench while angle torquing the intake cam bolt, but it makes sense now.

I have now removed the cam covers and all four cams again. Now the crank is moving freely! I inspected all of the valve stem positions and they all look to be undisturbed. My first mistake was finishing the cam timing before reinstalling the oil pump and cover. That led to the drive end of the intermediate shaft becoming off-center and very tight against the opening. I thought it would move to the center when I rotated the shaft, but it went right and then got stuck. So, one of the chains likely jumped and then became too tight to move as well. I also found that both cam oiling sleeves had been installed from one to three times in the wrong position by previous mechanics. There were dents from the back pin as it pressed into the soft aluminum sleeve when the sprocket bearing caps were torqued. So, I have ordered two more of those. No we are waiting on the winter storms to clear up enough for the deliveries to resume to my local dealer.

Thanks again for guiding a "newbie" through the steps. I have rebuilt an AMC 327 before, but it was child's play compared to the Porsche engines. That old AMC engine is still purring along after 20+ years since the rebuild.
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Old 02-05-2022 | 06:25 PM
  #17  
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Another dilemma. This car is new to me. I found that a previous "mechanic" mis-aligned the cam bearing sleeve near the intake sprocket, which caused the camshaft to sit slightly crooked (for a short time) and that caused the typical DTCs when driven by the PO. That led to one of the two camshaft rings to break. I bought a new one and carefully fit it in place. Now I cannot slide my new big aluminum bearing sleeve over the rings. I assume there is a tool, similar to piston ring compressor, but I cannot find one after extensive searching. Does anyone have a DIY method for squeezing the ring while sliding the bearing sleeve over it? I can upload photos if that helps.
Old 02-05-2022 | 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by iwanta996
Another dilemma. This car is new to me. I found that a previous "mechanic" mis-aligned the cam bearing sleeve near the intake sprocket, which caused the camshaft to sit slightly crooked (for a short time) and that caused the typical DTCs when driven by the PO. That led to one of the two camshaft rings to break. I bought a new one and carefully fit it in place. Now I cannot slide my new big aluminum bearing sleeve over the rings. I assume there is a tool, similar to piston ring compressor, but I cannot find one after extensive searching. Does anyone have a DIY method for squeezing the ring while sliding the bearing sleeve over it? I can upload photos if that helps.

For god's sake, show a picture.
Old 02-05-2022 | 07:05 PM
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Those rings compress with your fingers as you work the sleeve over the rings. As b3freak recommended, I would highly suggest that you buy the assembly video, or at least the videos showing assembly of the camshaft and components and timing process. It is by far the most comprehensive assembly video (and only professional one that I know of) for building this engine and the step that you are trying to complete is one that gets screwed up often because the manuals are hard to follow or leave steps out. I was under the impression that those rings are not easily replaceable (I remember Jake talking about these replacement of these rings i'm pretty sure but I know he covers how to clean and reinstall that sleeve as part of the cam assembly).
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Old 02-05-2022 | 07:23 PM
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I replaced those rings on my Turbo. They are similar for the M96 engine. Thread here -> https://rennlist.com/forums/996-turb...-annoying.html
The upshot is just compress them with your fingers and slip the housing over the nose of the camshaft. I found it easier to do this with the cams out of the engine; I don't know if that is possible on an M96 as I haven't had one apart.
Old 02-05-2022 | 07:43 PM
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Thanks for the quick response Yelcab. Here are two photos. The first one is the damaged bank one sleeve. Bank two had only one impression indicating a mis-alignment.

While typing this I saw the other two replies, so thanks for your quick responses. I tried to do it with my fingers but I could not hold the ring and push the sleeve on. I thought about how a ring compressor works and decided to try using my channel locks with duck tape on the jaws to compress the ring while pushing/turning the sleeve. That worked perfectly, with no damage to the shaft or rings. I'll be sure to post images first from now on to help with context.

Bearing sleeve with THREE failed installations (not by me) to align the blind pin and corresponding hole.


New sleeve in position.

I am ready to set the timing now. I will be certain that the number one piston is on the overlap stroke at the TDC mark, then proceed per the Bentley instructions. I'm still not sure of the best method to counter-hold the intake camshaft when I angle torque the bolt. There are two cast nodes in the middle, but my 24mm wrench will not quite fit over them. Maybe I can use an adjustable wrench. Jake advised against using the flat locking tool to hold the shafts, and I respect his experience and that of others on this forum. The "Man in a Garage" video used the two piece swivel tool to hold the cams on his 5-chain, and I will gladly buy one if it will fit on a three chain cam setup. I have the intake bolt tool, but Bentley says to remove it for angle torquing. Thanks as always for your help.
Old 02-05-2022 | 08:03 PM
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See my post above. That is the tool you need. You also need the two bridges to hold the camshafts down and help install the camshafts without breaking them. You can see the tools on my build thread.
Old 02-05-2022 | 11:23 PM
  #23  
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Jake asked me to extract this clip from the Focus On: M9X Engine Assembly. This is from Stage 14 of the series where he covers installation of the plain bearing on intake camshafts. Enjoy!

And again, I encourage everyone that is doing this job to consider purchasing the full M9X assembly training package from The Knowledge Gruppe or other retailers like LN Engineering or Pelican Parts.

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Old 02-06-2022 | 07:53 PM
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b3freak (and Jake) thanks for that free video clip. I'm going to save up for a set of Jake's videos for sure. It's a miracle this engine didn't seize up from the shoddy work performed right before the PO sold it to me. Adding the black indexing marks to the bearing sleeve is so simple, but genius. I can see now that it is near impossible to confirm that the sleeve has not rotated off of the back pin without those markings. That happened to me before the IMS shaft issue, but I caught it before clamping down the bearing caps.

amargari, I purchased the cam holding tools you showed above earlier this week, so I'll use the 2-piece tool (9686) to hold the intake shaft while applying initial torque to the end bolt. Did you leave the tool in place when angle torquing the additional 110 degrees? If not did you counter hold with a 24mm wrench or something else? I'll need to order the cam bars tonight for delivery at the end of this next week. Wished I had done that sooner. Since all four cams are out now, do you recommend completely installing/timing the bank 1 cams, then installing/timing bank 2? Any concern about the bank 2 chain rolling off the front IMS sprocket if those cams are not in place when rotating the engine for bank 2 overlap?
Old 02-07-2022 | 12:05 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by iwanta996
b3freak (and Jake) thanks for that free video clip. I'm going to save up for a set of Jake's videos for sure. It's a miracle this engine didn't seize up from the shoddy work performed right before the PO sold it to me. Adding the black indexing marks to the bearing sleeve is so simple, but genius. I can see now that it is near impossible to confirm that the sleeve has not rotated off of the back pin without those markings. That happened to me before the IMS shaft issue, but I caught it before clamping down the bearing caps.

amargari, I purchased the cam holding tools you showed above earlier this week, so I'll use the 2-piece tool (9686) to hold the intake shaft while applying initial torque to the end bolt. Did you leave the tool in place when angle torquing the additional 110 degrees? If not did you counter hold with a 24mm wrench or something else? I'll need to order the cam bars tonight for delivery at the end of this next week. Wished I had done that sooner. Since all four cams are out now, do you recommend completely installing/timing the bank 1 cams, then installing/timing bank 2? Any concern about the bank 2 chain rolling off the front IMS sprocket if those cams are not in place when rotating the engine for bank 2 overlap?
  1. The bridges are used to hold the camshafts to the head and to help distribute the downward pressure on the cams when installing them. You tighten them along with the caps a little bit at a time on each one bolt to slowly bring the cams in place.
  2. You use the tool above that I posted for both stages of tightening the bolt. The original torque amount and the additional 110 degrees. Also, do not have the flat tool installed into the back of the cams while doing this.

Last edited by amargari; 02-08-2022 at 05:29 PM.
Old 02-07-2022 | 12:39 AM
  #26  
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Thanks amargari, for your patience and timely advice. I know I can do this now. I'll update you all once the bars get here and I've finished the cam timing.
Old 02-08-2022 | 05:28 PM
  #27  
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@iwanta996 , I just went back and rewatched the Jake Raby video on cam timing. I fixed my response above. You use the tool for the initial torque and the second degrees of torque. What through me off is Jake does 3 stages of torque in the video. So use the tool for both steps of torquing. Also, make sure you remove the tool from the end of the cams that keeps the cams from moving.
Old 02-08-2022 | 09:23 PM
  #28  
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That's good to know, since I don't have the full video. So, during the final angle torquing is it normal to see some cam rotation? At that point I'll have the exhaust cam bolts torqued and the chain tensioners and chain guides all in place and torqued down per spec.
Old 02-09-2022 | 12:53 PM
  #29  
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I am not an expert, but if everything is linked together, some slight movement until the tool fully contacts the bearing surface should be ok as long as both cams move the same amount. I assume that is why Jake teaches to put 3 levels of torque on the intake camshaft bolt. The first level secures the gear to the camshaft and makes sure the cam doesn't move separately from the gear. The next two steps are to make sure it is tightened properly. In the video, he does the first light tightening when the camshafts are locked together. Then the next two stages with the tightening tool and the camshafts no longer locked together with the plate.
Old 02-09-2022 | 11:21 PM
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That makes sense now that I've tried it and had the flat aluminum tool bend on me during final torque. It's really hard to angle torque all the way through 110 degrees without a pause to reposition the ratchet or breaker bar. After I reach the initial 50Nm mark, I plan to use a white marker to make two dots on the case, one at the 55 degree point and one at the end. My new steel tools are due to arrive tomorrow afternoon, so I'll start tomorrow night. And of course, I have two new intake cam bolts from my local dealer.


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