Engines - not so fragile then!
10-27-2017, 05:47 AM
#1
User
Thread Starter
Engines - not so fragile then!
We here so much about engine failures that I thought some good results might cheer owners up.
When we started racing the Boxster’s and 996’s 7 years ago everyone (including us) struggled with reliability over a full racing season.
Although we had rebuilt hundreds of road engines with 100% reliability – it took a lot of development to get the same engines racing round a circuit reliably.
This season in the UK’s top 3 Production based Porsche Championships our engines (built the previous winter) won all three Championships with a 100% reliability record – demonstrating that the small and subtle changes we make (combined with our rebuild skills) are worthwhile.
We also ran a podium based rewards scheme that has resulted in all 3 Champions earning labour free winter engine rebuilds – putting over £8000 back into the Sport.
Next season the Porsche Club Championship introduces the 3.8 engines and we expect this to follow the same set of challenges and a learning curve as the previous models.
Strictly controlled to standard road based internals (with a few minor allowances) this shows that progress has been made and that rebuilds to the right specification can create a very reliable engine.
Porsche Club GB class 1 Champion Mark McAleer 8 wins, 2 * 2nd , 1 * 3rd 100% reliability.
Porsche Club GB class 2 Champion Jake McAleer 9 wins, 2 * 2nd 100% reliability.
Porsche Club GB TEAM AWARD RVR 17 wins, 4 * 2nd 1 * 3nd 100% reliability.
BRSCC Boxster class 1 Champion Ed Hayes 15 wins, 4 * 2nd , 3 * 3rd 100% reliability.
Baz (Barry Hart, Technical Director, Hartech Automotive www.hartech.org)
When we started racing the Boxster’s and 996’s 7 years ago everyone (including us) struggled with reliability over a full racing season.
Although we had rebuilt hundreds of road engines with 100% reliability – it took a lot of development to get the same engines racing round a circuit reliably.
This season in the UK’s top 3 Production based Porsche Championships our engines (built the previous winter) won all three Championships with a 100% reliability record – demonstrating that the small and subtle changes we make (combined with our rebuild skills) are worthwhile.
We also ran a podium based rewards scheme that has resulted in all 3 Champions earning labour free winter engine rebuilds – putting over £8000 back into the Sport.
Next season the Porsche Club Championship introduces the 3.8 engines and we expect this to follow the same set of challenges and a learning curve as the previous models.
Strictly controlled to standard road based internals (with a few minor allowances) this shows that progress has been made and that rebuilds to the right specification can create a very reliable engine.
Porsche Club GB class 1 Champion Mark McAleer 8 wins, 2 * 2nd , 1 * 3rd 100% reliability.
Porsche Club GB class 2 Champion Jake McAleer 9 wins, 2 * 2nd 100% reliability.
Porsche Club GB TEAM AWARD RVR 17 wins, 4 * 2nd 1 * 3nd 100% reliability.
BRSCC Boxster class 1 Champion Ed Hayes 15 wins, 4 * 2nd , 3 * 3rd 100% reliability.
Baz (Barry Hart, Technical Director, Hartech Automotive www.hartech.org)
Last edited by bazhart; 10-27-2017 at 07:52 AM. Reason: to include company name etc
10-27-2017, 10:36 AM
#3
Baz
Have you guys developed a 3.7/3.8 engine based on the stock 3.4?
If not is this something your planning on doing? Would the reliability be as quoted above? And what BHP gain could be expected?
Thanks
Have you guys developed a 3.7/3.8 engine based on the stock 3.4?
If not is this something your planning on doing? Would the reliability be as quoted above? And what BHP gain could be expected?
Thanks
10-27-2017, 10:51 AM
#4
Drifting
This is great, and I am a big fan of your approach and the transparency you have.
Do you get many US customers? I guess what my real question is whether it is cost effective to ship an engine to you and back, or does turn an otherwise more affordable rebuild into one too costly to be viable?
Do you get many US customers? I guess what my real question is whether it is cost effective to ship an engine to you and back, or does turn an otherwise more affordable rebuild into one too costly to be viable?
10-27-2017, 06:16 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Trending Topics
10-27-2017, 07:09 PM
#8
Hartech rebuilds are the gold standard for 986 and 996 engines in the U.K. Legendary.
10-27-2017, 09:16 PM
#9
Hartech Automotive www.hartech.org
I'm curious as to what you find to be the causes of - and solutions to - cylinder scoring and cracking.
10-28-2017, 02:13 AM
#10
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
http://www.hartech.org/images/downlo...0(interim).pdf
10-28-2017, 07:16 AM
#12
User
Thread Starter
In reply to EVIL BUNNY
We have been involved in projects for oversized engines for the last 2 years.
Initially we started with 3 different cars/models and created them using pistons originally intended for other applications and modified them to get going after re-mapping etc (and di so for a few customers who were happy to proceed themselves by way of increasing feedback – including one form the USA). There followed test miles and strips and rebuilds etc, and then moved on the having special pistons manufactured.
These new pistons were developed by a F1 provider and we had different profiles manufactured and fitted different versions to the same engines and continued testing.
Engines were then stripped again and the final version of the piston profiles agreed and put into production and some of these are currently under final test while we are awaiting some others that are imminent.
Throughout the test we have had no problems with the conversions – all performing well with standard auxiliaries and reliable.
It is quite traditional for small business specialists to try out new ideas on customer cars (due to the cost and time scales involved that are beyond many).
In contrast we always develop our designs and test ourselves before putting into production. Unfortunately this takes a lot of time (especially trying to put enough miles on the cars between strips and inspections) and often delays our developments from coming to the market before others – but when they do our success rate is excellent as a result.
We presently have under test a 996 3.4 now 3.7 (going very well indeed), a 3.6 now 3.9 (again performing well), a 3.8 now 3.9 (performing well but needing an un-connected gearbox rebuild) and a 3.6 still running as a 3.6 but with different profile pistons (for future standard rebuilds). We also are building a Cayman S race car (with a mod to stiffen the crankshaft from flexing) and a Gen 9A1 car awaiting a 4 litre engine that we are building.
You can imagine the cost and time involved in owning and developing 6 cars – all requiring miles putting on them while we are flat out internally with customer work anyway.
The difficulty in supplying outside the UK is covered in some Countries already through agents in Holland, Germany and Canada and we can always build a whole engine from abroad or just modify crankcases and supply pistons etc – but this still involves lengthy and/or expensive transport.
We also have accumulated a lot of crankcases that we can convert for exchange (but so far have simply been too busy to put enough through our own internal machine shop). To help we have a special technical and product exchange arrangement with Alpine Autoworks in Canada who have their own machining facilities.
Although machining out cylinder blocks and fitting alloy Nikasil closed deck cylinders sounds easy – it is not if it is going to be reliable and we have refused just supplying cylinders for others to fit for that very reason. We have been doing this for over 15 years and although even our first designs have worked successfully we have gradually improved them over the intervening years and sub-contracted them to a respected F1 supplier 9when the volumes became too high for us to cope with).
We use new CNC machines for all the cylinder and block work internally so we can control everything “IN HOUSE”.
Alpine have the right credentials for equipment and the right attitude to quality and despite our help - have been taking their time to fully understand the whole process and eradicate any small issues.
This means you could send your blocks or engines to us or contact them directly to see if they are ready to proceed on a production basis yet – or deal through them for assembly but for speed they may decide to send the cases on to us.
Until now our arrangements with them have been for our standard engine rebuild capacities and they have not yet been involved in our oversized engines but as soon as we are ready to release the product commercially – they will be available through all our agents.
There are 2 videos on our webs site that may inform you more about our process. Our cylinders are full wet design with top hat precision locations making the top of the block a full closed deck (not to be confused with some claiming that but who do not fit the top of the liner into a recess). This is important because a tube fitted inside a tube is not as still as a solid tube of the same overall dimensions. With this design you either have a thin inner tube in a thick tube – or a think one in a thin tube and neither is as stiff as one solid tube replacing them all and fixed at the top.
This problem is behind difficulties some have with ferrous liners or thin alloy ones although I think we could fit wither better than many (and I am sure some specialists can do it satisfactorily as well) it is just that ours are technically the best way it can be dome and even incorporate external ribs to increase the surface area for cooling (that dry liners cannot replicate). We have over the last 13 years manufactured and supplied thousands without failures because it is the best way to do the job and controlled with high precision and suitable machinery.
Currently we are working at full capacity and with new products coming through that is unlikely to change – so engines internally are probably going to take 4 -6 weeks here (we currently process 1/day).
Expanding to satisfy increasing demand is not possible because the whole system is in balance between machinery, staff and space and it would be necessary to double in size to expand anymore and we fear doing so would lose the present relationship we enjoy with our customers.
Baz
We have been involved in projects for oversized engines for the last 2 years.
Initially we started with 3 different cars/models and created them using pistons originally intended for other applications and modified them to get going after re-mapping etc (and di so for a few customers who were happy to proceed themselves by way of increasing feedback – including one form the USA). There followed test miles and strips and rebuilds etc, and then moved on the having special pistons manufactured.
These new pistons were developed by a F1 provider and we had different profiles manufactured and fitted different versions to the same engines and continued testing.
Engines were then stripped again and the final version of the piston profiles agreed and put into production and some of these are currently under final test while we are awaiting some others that are imminent.
Throughout the test we have had no problems with the conversions – all performing well with standard auxiliaries and reliable.
It is quite traditional for small business specialists to try out new ideas on customer cars (due to the cost and time scales involved that are beyond many).
In contrast we always develop our designs and test ourselves before putting into production. Unfortunately this takes a lot of time (especially trying to put enough miles on the cars between strips and inspections) and often delays our developments from coming to the market before others – but when they do our success rate is excellent as a result.
We presently have under test a 996 3.4 now 3.7 (going very well indeed), a 3.6 now 3.9 (again performing well), a 3.8 now 3.9 (performing well but needing an un-connected gearbox rebuild) and a 3.6 still running as a 3.6 but with different profile pistons (for future standard rebuilds). We also are building a Cayman S race car (with a mod to stiffen the crankshaft from flexing) and a Gen 9A1 car awaiting a 4 litre engine that we are building.
You can imagine the cost and time involved in owning and developing 6 cars – all requiring miles putting on them while we are flat out internally with customer work anyway.
The difficulty in supplying outside the UK is covered in some Countries already through agents in Holland, Germany and Canada and we can always build a whole engine from abroad or just modify crankcases and supply pistons etc – but this still involves lengthy and/or expensive transport.
We also have accumulated a lot of crankcases that we can convert for exchange (but so far have simply been too busy to put enough through our own internal machine shop). To help we have a special technical and product exchange arrangement with Alpine Autoworks in Canada who have their own machining facilities.
Although machining out cylinder blocks and fitting alloy Nikasil closed deck cylinders sounds easy – it is not if it is going to be reliable and we have refused just supplying cylinders for others to fit for that very reason. We have been doing this for over 15 years and although even our first designs have worked successfully we have gradually improved them over the intervening years and sub-contracted them to a respected F1 supplier 9when the volumes became too high for us to cope with).
We use new CNC machines for all the cylinder and block work internally so we can control everything “IN HOUSE”.
Alpine have the right credentials for equipment and the right attitude to quality and despite our help - have been taking their time to fully understand the whole process and eradicate any small issues.
This means you could send your blocks or engines to us or contact them directly to see if they are ready to proceed on a production basis yet – or deal through them for assembly but for speed they may decide to send the cases on to us.
Until now our arrangements with them have been for our standard engine rebuild capacities and they have not yet been involved in our oversized engines but as soon as we are ready to release the product commercially – they will be available through all our agents.
There are 2 videos on our webs site that may inform you more about our process. Our cylinders are full wet design with top hat precision locations making the top of the block a full closed deck (not to be confused with some claiming that but who do not fit the top of the liner into a recess). This is important because a tube fitted inside a tube is not as still as a solid tube of the same overall dimensions. With this design you either have a thin inner tube in a thick tube – or a think one in a thin tube and neither is as stiff as one solid tube replacing them all and fixed at the top.
This problem is behind difficulties some have with ferrous liners or thin alloy ones although I think we could fit wither better than many (and I am sure some specialists can do it satisfactorily as well) it is just that ours are technically the best way it can be dome and even incorporate external ribs to increase the surface area for cooling (that dry liners cannot replicate). We have over the last 13 years manufactured and supplied thousands without failures because it is the best way to do the job and controlled with high precision and suitable machinery.
Currently we are working at full capacity and with new products coming through that is unlikely to change – so engines internally are probably going to take 4 -6 weeks here (we currently process 1/day).
Expanding to satisfy increasing demand is not possible because the whole system is in balance between machinery, staff and space and it would be necessary to double in size to expand anymore and we fear doing so would lose the present relationship we enjoy with our customers.
Baz
10-29-2017, 12:03 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
It's good to see your engine program doing so well !!
10-29-2017, 05:58 AM
#14
The difficulty in supplying outside the UK is covered in some Countries already through agents in Holland, Germany and Canada and we can always build a whole engine from abroad or just modify crankcases and supply pistons etc – but this still involves lengthy and/or expensive transport.
May I ask who is your agent in Holland?
Are they also able to do a an engine rebuild (3.6/3.8/3.9/4.0) aimed at reliabke track use?
10-30-2017, 07:57 AM
#15
Baz,
Thanks for taking the time to reply and providing feedback.
I am UK and based and am interested in exploring the uplift from a 3.4 to a 3.7.
Ideally I would like to see in excess of the GT3 number of 360 bhp with strong reliability, car will be heavily tracked, based on your current development plan & feedback to you see this as a possibility in the future?
Thanks for taking the time to reply and providing feedback.
I am UK and based and am interested in exploring the uplift from a 3.4 to a 3.7.
Ideally I would like to see in excess of the GT3 number of 360 bhp with strong reliability, car will be heavily tracked, based on your current development plan & feedback to you see this as a possibility in the future?