WTB: 993TT 450HP ECU
08-05-2011, 12:18 PM
#17
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Then I will look for a 424bhp chip first for my dyno run. The garage stated I can do the 3 runs, make my ECU change and do another 3 runs to see the impact of the change.
Viggo, I will stay away from a Ruf, that would be like trying crack for me.
Malcolm, this is not a "butt-o-meter" conversation at this point. I am watching my guage, I can tell now when I am boosting or not. Yes, technically its not on a dyno. Also, I have done the homework, and the "plan" isn't something I made up, it comes from someone very well respected by all of us here.
Completely plug and play.
ECU is under the drivers seat as I'm sure you know.
The only problem could be an immobilizer miss match. I DID NOT have this issue with the turbo S ecu that I put in my car, but some have. Either way, should be an easy fix at the dealer with a shark tool.
ECU is under the drivers seat as I'm sure you know.
The only problem could be an immobilizer miss match. I DID NOT have this issue with the turbo S ecu that I put in my car, but some have. Either way, should be an easy fix at the dealer with a shark tool.
With the risk of going OT, I'll offer some of my thoughts. I think the 430bhp kit is a nice one as it's factory, totally bolt-on/reversible and does provide some gains over the stock 408bhp setup.
As to what you said Q, it's good that you don't feel the urge to go beyond this stage (424ish). I mean how much hp do we really need? The thread on the NA board comes to mind, great discussion there. On the other hand, you will always want more power and moreover (at least this was the case for me) when you have had an NA 993 for a while and try the turbo, there is just no going back. And that also applies to the 993TT in stock form vs. a 500hp 993TT. I did this exact move myself 993 C2S -> 993TT (408) -> 993 Ruf TurboR and I must say that the leap is almost as big going from the C2S to the 408 993TT as going from 408hp to TurboR. It's huge. And frankly now, there is no going back for me
. I'm not saying it's a bad thing where you are now and how you feel about it, au contraire. Just don't ever test drive a turboR 
(if you havn't done so already). From the 60-120 mph ultimate performance test thread, Bill's otherwise standard 993TT with turboR engine did 60-120mph in 9.1 seconds. The same number for the standard 408hp 993TT is 13 seconds... The numbers speak for themselves...
As to what you said Q, it's good that you don't feel the urge to go beyond this stage (424ish). I mean how much hp do we really need? The thread on the NA board comes to mind, great discussion there. On the other hand, you will always want more power and moreover (at least this was the case for me) when you have had an NA 993 for a while and try the turbo, there is just no going back. And that also applies to the 993TT in stock form vs. a 500hp 993TT. I did this exact move myself 993 C2S -> 993TT (408) -> 993 Ruf TurboR and I must say that the leap is almost as big going from the C2S to the 408 993TT as going from 408hp to TurboR. It's huge. And frankly now, there is no going back for me
. I'm not saying it's a bad thing where you are now and how you feel about it, au contraire. Just don't ever test drive a turboR (if you havn't done so already). From the 60-120 mph ultimate performance test thread, Bill's otherwise standard 993TT with turboR engine did 60-120mph in 9.1 seconds. The same number for the standard 408hp 993TT is 13 seconds... The numbers speak for themselves...It gets pretty hot here in summer too although at sea level! In the midst of the worst, lets say mid to high 90's with high humidity, lap times fall by about 2% (2s in every 100). Bear in mind this is with sustained WOT application where you are on boost for 85% of the time. This is not something that you can feel with your "butt-o-meter". So I really doubt your issue is heat, and like Jean has said, altitude and octane are the likely candidates assuming no engine imperfections. The inefficiencies of pushing a K16 to higher boost by program are likely to be amplified in lower atmospheric pressure and the 30Hp you might expect at sea level will amount to significantly less at altitude. The factory 450HP kit with K24s is a better option IMO. If you go with a hybrid systems, you must clarify from the developer what impact the low octane fuel in addition to the altitude will have on the output and more importanty, on the safety of the engine. Despite the knock sensor and the Monotronic's retardation of timing, with high boost, heat and low octane, detonation is a real risk in these circumstances. Do you homework here! At your altitude and with lowish octane (and with heat), if you really want more than the 40HP you might get from the factory 450 kit (you won't get the full +50) you really need to look to internals like cams that will help give you the performance without the high boost which, in conjunction with the low octane, puts the engine at risk.
08-05-2011, 12:57 PM
#18
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Do the first run with the more powerful ECU - about halfway through the 2nd run your engine and intercooler will be so heat-soaked the ECU will be pulling timing like there's no tomorrow. Very few chassis dynos have enough cooling to keep IATs on a 993tt from going through the roof.
08-05-2011, 01:33 PM
#19
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So now you are saying I can't even handle upgrading my ECU to 424bhp without putting on a bigger intercooler or extra intercooler?
Come on now. This is bit much.
Like I said, I did my homework, talked to the experts, and the plan I mentioned above (upgrading ECU to TTS specs, optional adding bolt on Ruf intercooler for hot or track days, and even a 50/50 race fuel mix) is what was told to me to help resolve my elevation, heat and lower octane issues. Trust me, I don't know enough to think of this on my own.
However, I think if I had a 424bhp ECU and was able to plug-in and test on my dyno run, would allow me to see real-time the impact of a simple change before I move forward with the plan above.
Come on now. This is bit much.
Like I said, I did my homework, talked to the experts, and the plan I mentioned above (upgrading ECU to TTS specs, optional adding bolt on Ruf intercooler for hot or track days, and even a 50/50 race fuel mix) is what was told to me to help resolve my elevation, heat and lower octane issues. Trust me, I don't know enough to think of this on my own.
However, I think if I had a 424bhp ECU and was able to plug-in and test on my dyno run, would allow me to see real-time the impact of a simple change before I move forward with the plan above.
And just to be clear - the Ruf product is an additional oil cooler, not an intercooler.
08-05-2011, 03:09 PM
#20
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Yes, I posted this, deleted it because I saw my inaccuracies, trying to type on a Iphone.
OK, my issue is still this:
1. I Opened a thread on loss of HP due to elevation and heat, wondering if its normal
2. I got the overwhelming response that is primarily elevation, not heat and to call the experts
3. Called the experts, who many didn't call back. Talked to one who said, its elevation and heat and how they interact with the boost
4. Recommended solution is above (TTS ECU, Ruf oil cooler)
5. Still get the response that won't work and even a "you need to do research"
Look, I gotta start somewhere, and my first and most least expensive is to tackle the elevation HP issue with a upgraded ECU. The heat issue will be next with the Ruf oil cooler.
Is this the correct approach, according to the expert - yes. He states I don't need to goto a GT2 level upgrade, throwing $10k at the problem. He also states the responses to heat not having a significant impact are incorrect on a air-cooled 993.
BTW, let me go back to the original observation. I bought the car and brought it from CA to CO in May. Air temps here where still in the 70 degrees. Call it a butt-o-meter or not, but I know how exhilarating it was to boost even at 80% HP of my stock 400HP. Now its 95 degrees and I barely feel or see a boost, sometimes not at all.
So I gotta ask, if the heat impact is only 2%, why in the world would I even notice a difference? Why would I be willing to spend thousands of dollars to correct this? Doesn't make sense. So, butt-o-meter, boost gauge observation, and one of the best Porsche experts in the US is telling me I'm not insane, this is real and here is how to resolve it.
OK, my issue is still this:
1. I Opened a thread on loss of HP due to elevation and heat, wondering if its normal
2. I got the overwhelming response that is primarily elevation, not heat and to call the experts
3. Called the experts, who many didn't call back. Talked to one who said, its elevation and heat and how they interact with the boost
4. Recommended solution is above (TTS ECU, Ruf oil cooler)
5. Still get the response that won't work and even a "you need to do research"
Look, I gotta start somewhere, and my first and most least expensive is to tackle the elevation HP issue with a upgraded ECU. The heat issue will be next with the Ruf oil cooler.
Is this the correct approach, according to the expert - yes. He states I don't need to goto a GT2 level upgrade, throwing $10k at the problem. He also states the responses to heat not having a significant impact are incorrect on a air-cooled 993.
BTW, let me go back to the original observation. I bought the car and brought it from CA to CO in May. Air temps here where still in the 70 degrees. Call it a butt-o-meter or not, but I know how exhilarating it was to boost even at 80% HP of my stock 400HP. Now its 95 degrees and I barely feel or see a boost, sometimes not at all.
So I gotta ask, if the heat impact is only 2%, why in the world would I even notice a difference? Why would I be willing to spend thousands of dollars to correct this? Doesn't make sense. So, butt-o-meter, boost gauge observation, and one of the best Porsche experts in the US is telling me I'm not insane, this is real and here is how to resolve it.
Last edited by Spidey 993; 08-05-2011 at 03:41 PM.
08-05-2011, 03:43 PM
#21
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A problem you'll run into is that few people experienced with what actually happens on a 993 turbo are also located at one mile above sea level and so don't have the experience you would like to tap into.
Here's a suggestion - get yourself a diagnostics cable and software from Durametric and log your IATs at altitude and 80 degrees. That will help show if the ECU is pulling boost due to the IAT going too high. You can't use a generic OBD reader because the data rate across the OBD interface is too slow for a value as dynamic as the IAT on a turbo charged car.
A couple of years ago I logged IATs and boost levels using a Race Technology DL1 datalogger, a separate pressure sensor and tapping into the factory IAT sensor. Enlightening results but at close to sea level so not directly applicable to you.
Here's a suggestion - get yourself a diagnostics cable and software from Durametric and log your IATs at altitude and 80 degrees. That will help show if the ECU is pulling boost due to the IAT going too high. You can't use a generic OBD reader because the data rate across the OBD interface is too slow for a value as dynamic as the IAT on a turbo charged car.
A couple of years ago I logged IATs and boost levels using a Race Technology DL1 datalogger, a separate pressure sensor and tapping into the factory IAT sensor. Enlightening results but at close to sea level so not directly applicable to you.
08-05-2011, 04:08 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
Illuminating to say the least. Interesting day all around, as this was the day MOD500's sunroof decided to "leave the building" during a run somewhere around Warp 9. 
08-05-2011, 04:45 PM
#24
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I don't believe that's the case - so long as you put a drive block ECU into a drive block car it's plug and play. The ECU and drive block computers are not matched to one another.
08-05-2011, 04:47 PM
#25
Nordschleife Master
I've always been confused with the immobolizer mismatch... many years ago, I bought a 1997 ECU with a Gemballa program for Waldo (a 1996 TT)... it worked without a hitch.
08-05-2011, 06:30 PM
#26
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Felix,
Excellent point and suggestion.
Here I am at 6000 feet, clearly experiencing "something" that looks like considerable HP loss or gain, based on different temperatures, and it goes against the calculators and some very smart people here on RL opinion on what should be happening. Logic says I'm the crazy guy, but it would be very easy to duplicate. I wish someone was
Yes, I will get the cable/software to tap into whats going on. I am a computer engineer so easy enough, or not! That should provide some data points to discuss Im sure.
Thanks -
Tony
Excellent point and suggestion.
Here I am at 6000 feet, clearly experiencing "something" that looks like considerable HP loss or gain, based on different temperatures, and it goes against the calculators and some very smart people here on RL opinion on what should be happening. Logic says I'm the crazy guy, but it would be very easy to duplicate. I wish someone was
Yes, I will get the cable/software to tap into whats going on. I am a computer engineer so easy enough, or not! That should provide some data points to discuss Im sure.
Thanks -
Tony
A problem you'll run into is that few people experienced with what actually happens on a 993 turbo are also located at one mile above sea level and so don't have the experience you would like to tap into.
Here's a suggestion - get yourself a diagnostics cable and software from Durametric and log your IATs at altitude and 80 degrees. That will help show if the ECU is pulling boost due to the IAT going too high. You can't use a generic OBD reader because the data rate across the OBD interface is too slow for a value as dynamic as the IAT on a turbo charged car.
A couple of years ago I logged IATs and boost levels using a Race Technology DL1 datalogger, a separate pressure sensor and tapping into the factory IAT sensor. Enlightening results but at close to sea level so not directly applicable to you.
Here's a suggestion - get yourself a diagnostics cable and software from Durametric and log your IATs at altitude and 80 degrees. That will help show if the ECU is pulling boost due to the IAT going too high. You can't use a generic OBD reader because the data rate across the OBD interface is too slow for a value as dynamic as the IAT on a turbo charged car.
A couple of years ago I logged IATs and boost levels using a Race Technology DL1 datalogger, a separate pressure sensor and tapping into the factory IAT sensor. Enlightening results but at close to sea level so not directly applicable to you.
08-05-2011, 06:53 PM
#27
Just a thought, but max Octane at the pump in CO is 91? Why not find some unleaded 101 race gas and then mix a tankful at ~94 or 95 octane and see how that performs? Get the ethanol out of the equation too if you can, http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=CO
08-05-2011, 07:02 PM
#28
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Yep, that was the third action item I got. Mix a 50/50 91 octane with racing fuel to get around 95-96. That should help.
Just a thought, but max Octane at the pump in CO is 91? Why not find some unleaded 101 race gas and then mix a tankful at ~94 or 95 octane and see how that performs? Get the ethanol out of the equation too if you can, http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=CO
08-06-2011, 04:12 PM
#29
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Durametric datalogging will be enlightening in terms of MAF values, load and horsepower losses.
However you need to keep in mind that when you are measuring the IATs, the readings will be the impact of altitude and ambient temperature together.. Many experts can have many great opinions I am sure, however physics are what they are, as your KKK16 turbos work harder to reach the pressure they are targeted for in your program, they will overspin due to the thinner air/lower pressure, so they will move away of their optimal efficiency range that they are designed for, and IATs will increase in no time. So the high IAT reading that will be seen in the datalogs and the timing retardation, then boost, will not be a result of Ambient temp (alone).
A 430 program will help recover some of the HP loss for sure. Any program boosting beyond 1 Bar on your stock turbos is a waste of money IMO, you will be stretching your turbos beyond their limits and will heat soak very rapidly.
Having to mix fuels for a street driven car is a royal PITA in my opinion and takes away any pleasure of driving your car.
Obvioulsy doing the test on the same road and speeds on a cool day or night will show the impact of ambient temps.
FWIW Last night I drove from sea level to 1300 meters of altitude in the 997 in about 30 minutes, temperature was 90F at sea level and 73F in the mountains, the drop in performance of the car was quite noticeable when I reached destination, especially the boost onset was quite slower, unfortunately I did not have my Durametric cable with me, but I have no doubt there was a considerable HP drop, despite cooler temperatures. I will do the test next week hopefully.
However you need to keep in mind that when you are measuring the IATs, the readings will be the impact of altitude and ambient temperature together.. Many experts can have many great opinions I am sure, however physics are what they are, as your KKK16 turbos work harder to reach the pressure they are targeted for in your program, they will overspin due to the thinner air/lower pressure, so they will move away of their optimal efficiency range that they are designed for, and IATs will increase in no time. So the high IAT reading that will be seen in the datalogs and the timing retardation, then boost, will not be a result of Ambient temp (alone).
A 430 program will help recover some of the HP loss for sure. Any program boosting beyond 1 Bar on your stock turbos is a waste of money IMO, you will be stretching your turbos beyond their limits and will heat soak very rapidly.
Having to mix fuels for a street driven car is a royal PITA in my opinion and takes away any pleasure of driving your car.
Obvioulsy doing the test on the same road and speeds on a cool day or night will show the impact of ambient temps.
FWIW Last night I drove from sea level to 1300 meters of altitude in the 997 in about 30 minutes, temperature was 90F at sea level and 73F in the mountains, the drop in performance of the car was quite noticeable when I reached destination, especially the boost onset was quite slower, unfortunately I did not have my Durametric cable with me, but I have no doubt there was a considerable HP drop, despite cooler temperatures. I will do the test next week hopefully.
08-06-2011, 05:10 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
... the drop in performance of the car was quite noticeable when I reached destination, especially the boost onset was quite slower, unfortunately I did not have my Durametric cable with me, but I have no doubt there was a considerable HP drop, despite cooler temperatures. I will do the test next week hopefully.
This sounds suspiciously like a "butt-dyno" reading to me, Jean. I don't know if I've ever seen one from you before. You sure you don't have some Yankee blood in you?