Stock 993TT + $4k = 560bhp?
01-28-2011, 12:30 PM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
Stock 993TT + $4k = 560bhp?
So viperbob and I were discussing this in a thread in the 993 NA forums, so I figured it would be useful and beneficial if we discussed it in a separate thread in here:
Heres how it got started:
What are yall's input on this? I'm really struggling to believe that it can be done on k16s with the stock fueling components.
Heres how it got started:
yeah Bob, I know you have a lot of experience here, but I'm not seeing that.
From my knowledge, if you start with a stock 400bhp Turbo, you'd need:
1. Turbos...560bhp would need k24s at least, and those run about $3k alone. Add $200 for all the swap parts like exhaust rings, studs, and nuts.
2. Exhaust parts, including cat pipes or deletes and probably muffler deletes. I suppose you could go with the AWE test pipes, so lets call it $650.
3. You'd need some larger injectors, lets call it $300 there
4. Probably need a new fuel pump at $250
5. Diverter valves at $250
6. Tuning...looking at about $1000+ for a reflash by mail or at least that for in person tuning.
So with an ear splitting exhaust, and a hondaish torque curve, you may hit that figure, but you'd be out at least $5700, assuming you can do all the labor yourself.
If you can do it CORRECTLY for $4000, tell me how and I'll do it tomorrow.
From my knowledge, if you start with a stock 400bhp Turbo, you'd need:
1. Turbos...560bhp would need k24s at least, and those run about $3k alone. Add $200 for all the swap parts like exhaust rings, studs, and nuts.
2. Exhaust parts, including cat pipes or deletes and probably muffler deletes. I suppose you could go with the AWE test pipes, so lets call it $650.
3. You'd need some larger injectors, lets call it $300 there
4. Probably need a new fuel pump at $250
5. Diverter valves at $250
6. Tuning...looking at about $1000+ for a reflash by mail or at least that for in person tuning.
So with an ear splitting exhaust, and a hondaish torque curve, you may hit that figure, but you'd be out at least $5700, assuming you can do all the labor yourself.
If you can do it CORRECTLY for $4000, tell me how and I'll do it tomorrow.
Actually u can do this EASY with K16 hybrids. Have a misubishi wheel installed (about $2K for work), have proper blow off valves, and programming ($1400), and a 5 BAR FPR. Thats it. So no does not include labor. About 6-8 hours probably at most shops. 4 if they have actually seen a 993TT before and removed a turbo.
Bob, please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm a bit confused.
I struggle here.
Even with a relatively low BFSC of .6, 560bhp with max fuel pressure of 73.5 (5 bar) and a high (imho) injector duty cycle of 90%, you are looking at needing 48lb/hr injectors as opposed to the 37.7 lb/hr that come stock.
That leaves basically no margin for error.
if you were to do it "properly" (again imho), with same fuel pressure, an 80% duty cycle, and a bsfc of .65, you are looking at 58lb/hr injectors.
I'm not sure what the flow level of the fuel pump is, but at 73psi, the volume delivered is dropping substantially from the 3.8bar stock pressure.
Further, how are you running blow off valves (not bypass valves) on the draw-thru 993TT maf? That would be dumping metered air...causing the car to go pig rich.
I'm not familiar with the k16 hybrids you are speaking of, but to get that kinda power, I'm assuming you're gonna spin them to the tune of 1.5 bar of boost, which from my knowledge brings them well out of their compressor efficiency map, but again, I'm not familiar with this specific package.
Also, you are saying that all this can be done on stock cats/mufflers?
I struggle here.
Even with a relatively low BFSC of .6, 560bhp with max fuel pressure of 73.5 (5 bar) and a high (imho) injector duty cycle of 90%, you are looking at needing 48lb/hr injectors as opposed to the 37.7 lb/hr that come stock.
That leaves basically no margin for error.
if you were to do it "properly" (again imho), with same fuel pressure, an 80% duty cycle, and a bsfc of .65, you are looking at 58lb/hr injectors.
I'm not sure what the flow level of the fuel pump is, but at 73psi, the volume delivered is dropping substantially from the 3.8bar stock pressure.
Further, how are you running blow off valves (not bypass valves) on the draw-thru 993TT maf? That would be dumping metered air...causing the car to go pig rich.
I'm not familiar with the k16 hybrids you are speaking of, but to get that kinda power, I'm assuming you're gonna spin them to the tune of 1.5 bar of boost, which from my knowledge brings them well out of their compressor efficiency map, but again, I'm not familiar with this specific package.
Also, you are saying that all this can be done on stock cats/mufflers?
What are yall's input on this? I'm really struggling to believe that it can be done on k16s with the stock fueling components.
01-28-2011, 01:23 PM
#2
My impressions are that VB is a wealth of knowledge with these cars & mods. I wish he was still running his and was a more frequent poster here. He was EXTREMELY helpful to me over the phone when I was doing some of my mods. I agree that 4k for 560hp requires getting a bit creative with your acounting, but if you can sell old parts etc. you may be able to. The labor is pretty simple. I wouldnt want to do it without an aux oil cooler. I needed things like 5 bar fpr & some other odds & ends, but if you sell the old ecu buy a tuned one, sell the K16's or have them rebuilt as hybrids that can be done for 1500-2g. I'm not making 560 hp, but I know that I can run away from Supersnake's & Lambo Gallardo Superleggera's in a straight line. So that works for me.
01-28-2011, 01:34 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
He's talking about the k16/16g protomotive kit. This is the kit to get if you want something simple, easy to install, and doesn't cost you an arm and a leg. It rocks and plenty of people on the forum have it or have had it at one time.
Does it make 560hp? Depends who you ask and what dyno they were on
Does it make 560hp? Depends who you ask and what dyno they were on
01-28-2011, 03:13 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
I think it all depends on how you measure HP 
. This was debated years ago and not really resolved. This is why we now measure 60-130mph times.
. This was debated years ago and not really resolved. This is why we now measure 60-130mph times.
Trending Topics
01-28-2011, 03:30 PM
#8
Race Director
Thread Starter
whether it makes that power is important, but more important to me is doing it safely.
I don't think a 37.7lb injector is anywhere near sufficient for 560bhp.
I don't think a 37.7lb injector is anywhere near sufficient for 560bhp.
01-28-2011, 03:44 PM
#9
Race Car
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Being censored by a Moderator
Posts: 4,074
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I'd run a 83 lbs/hr injector to maintain the safety margin of duty cycle, never want to run injectors to 90%...when they fail its not a good thing. That being said 83 lb injectors are good from 600 rwhp to 1k.
01-28-2011, 04:55 PM
#10
Race Director
Thread Starter
yeah, on my blown mustang, I ran 60lb injectors to make 700rwhp (with 8 of them though), and they were basically maxed duty cycle wise (although I kept fuel pressure max at 60psi).
Something doesn't make sense here. I don't see how that setup can have enough fuel, especially since these air cooled cars need to be run a little more fat at WOT
Something doesn't make sense here. I don't see how that setup can have enough fuel, especially since these air cooled cars need to be run a little more fat at WOT
01-28-2011, 05:26 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
First, HP is at motor. 560 (and run with multiple cars on multiple dynos. avgs to 560 using a 25% drive train loss with the crappy AWD system) is fine on stock injectors. Have a 996TT customer (yes more efficient) with 700+ HP at 1.15 bar running stock injectors. I used stock injectors as a test on my own 993TT running 700HP (and K24 hybrids, and a BUNCH of other stuff) for almost 100 track days with no issues. And STUPID fast car (motons were required ) Of course there are a couple other tricks to do to intake to make it way more efficient... But that is another story. Believe or not. Buy more stuff than you need. Doesnt really bother me. Just giving you 10+ years of tuning dozens and dozens TTs with no issues, or failures.
) Of course there are a couple other tricks to do to intake to make it way more efficient... But that is another story. Believe or not. Buy more stuff than you need. Doesnt really bother me. Just giving you 10+ years of tuning dozens and dozens TTs with no issues, or failures.
^ Hi Bob..good to see ya posting.
01-28-2011, 07:38 PM
#13
Race Director
Thread Starter
First, HP is at motor. 560 (and run with multiple cars on multiple dynos. avgs to 560 using a 25% drive train loss with the crappy AWD system) is fine on stock injectors. Have a 996TT customer (yes more efficient) with 700+ HP at 1.15 bar running stock injectors. I used stock injectors as a test on my own 993TT running 700HP (and K24 hybrids, and a BUNCH of other stuff) for almost 100 track days with no issues. And STUPID fast car (motons were required ) Of course there are a couple other tricks to do to intake to make it way more efficient... But that is another story. Believe or not. Buy more stuff than you need. Doesnt really bother me. Just giving you 10+ years of tuning dozens and dozens TTs with no issues, or failures.
) Of course there are a couple other tricks to do to intake to make it way more efficient... But that is another story. Believe or not. Buy more stuff than you need. Doesnt really bother me. Just giving you 10+ years of tuning dozens and dozens TTs with no issues, or failures.however, having some knowledge with tuning big hp cars, I'm wondering if you can provide a bit more information such as
Rough a/f ratio at say 3k-7k?
injector duty cycle
maf ad counts
boost levels
I sure don't want to buy any more parts than necessary, but safety of the engine is my number one priority.
How well did the factory clutch hold up to that power?
Edit: Damn 700bhp on 1.15 bar? Thats a gain of 285bhp on an extra .35 bar/5.2psi (or 54bhp/lb) ? Thats pretty insane.
01-28-2011, 08:27 PM
#14
Drifting
I had the Protomotive K16-16g kit installed last summer including:
LWFW
Sachs 764 clutch
RUF oil cooler
Greddy EBC
MAF resistor divider network
Upgraded turbo waste gates
EVO Billet blow off valves
5 bar FPR
BMC filter
Gutted mufflers
New stock injectors
New stock distributor/rotor
New Plugs
PSS10's
RS sway bars
Turbo S spoiler
All tuned by Protosports in NJ which is really important, other wise you may have a bucket of parts.
The car is solidly planted, virtually no lag and scary power to redline.
Did not have it dyno'd but in real time it can keep up with all the new Turbo's and GT3's/RS's on the track.
I will have more impressions when I try it out vs the GT3RS. :-)
LWFW
Sachs 764 clutch
RUF oil cooler
Greddy EBC
MAF resistor divider network
Upgraded turbo waste gates
EVO Billet blow off valves
5 bar FPR
BMC filter
Gutted mufflers
New stock injectors
New stock distributor/rotor
New Plugs
PSS10's
RS sway bars
Turbo S spoiler
All tuned by Protosports in NJ which is really important, other wise you may have a bucket of parts.
The car is solidly planted, virtually no lag and scary power to redline.
Did not have it dyno'd but in real time it can keep up with all the new Turbo's and GT3's/RS's on the track.
I will have more impressions when I try it out vs the GT3RS. :-)
01-28-2011, 08:39 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All tuned by Protosports in NJ which is really important, other wise you may have a bucket of parts.
The car is solidly planted, virtually no lag and scary power to redline.
Did not have it dyno'd but in real time it can keep up with all the new Turbo's and GT3's/RS's on the track.
I will have more impressions when I try it out vs the GT3RS. :-)
+1 Protosport in Pompton Plains, NJ also did my buddy's '96 993 TT ...
Nothing but good things to say, power curve is very driveable and the car is FAST!