V

As a part of my due diligence process, I've been reading up on CG, RS-Tuning and RUFs respective 520hp kits. I've had numerous phonecalls and email exchanges with RUF (which seems like the best alternative by far when it comes to resale value) but they are just a) really tough to get a hold of and b) just a little bit over my budget. The latter wouldn't be a huge deal since it's really a proven package and clearly adds value to the car. I talked to various co-workers on the phone and it all just seems like a really big deal do get everything to work. So I looked at my other option which is CG/RS-Tuning. As far as I can understand, RS-Tuning develop the kits that CG sells. RS-Tuning are not local to me since they are in Germany but the main distributot in Sweden for CG is just around the corner, which is very conveniant.

Why stop at 520hp? Well, for a mostly street car (don't know for how long but I'm still in AWD mode) 520hp is more than enough to play around with. Secondly, it seems like a logical hp figure to stop at since anything above requires more or less a split-case operation and thus is not as cost effective. Anything about 520hp would mean replace con-rods, replace I/C, split-case operation etc. etc. sub 500hp would be even more cost effective (retaining the stock cams) but the 520hp is within my budget so I'll go with that.

Now to my questions: What is really the difference between the CGand RS-Tuning kits? They both have a 520hp kit but it is made up of different components (judging from their respective homepages):

CG: http://www.cargraphic.co.uk/index.ph...,article,1235/

RS-Tuning: http://www.rs-tuning.de/tuning/993/993b4v3.htm

CG 520hp:
383KW/520PS / 5550 1/min
695Nm /4 560 1/min

RS-Tuning 520hp:
382 kW (520 PS) / 5800 1/min
710 Nm / 4100 1/min

So fairly similar while not 100% identical. I have the dyno sheet of the CG kit but not the RS-Tuning kit. I'm pretty sure more or less the same hardware is used. While the CG kit is purely a bolt-on kit, RS-Tuning are doing some "in-house" modifications to the car with their 520hp kit such as: 1. Modifying the headers and 2. modifying the gearbox and even 3. porting the cylinders. So while the output numbers are pretty much the same, the process is different. The RS-kit also implies that a live remap is done while the CG kit basically just replaces the DME unit.

I will most likely go with the CG kit, as that can be installed by my local dealer. Maybe even with a warranty. CG mentions nothing about porting the cylinders or modifying the headers. I assume those are all optional modifications, or modifications made to work with the RS-Tuning 520hp kit.

Here is what I am looking at:

http://www.cargraphic.de/stepone/dat...P93_Turbo4.pdf

What's a ballpark figure for the amount of working hours needed to replace the turbos and cams? I guess the turbos are fairly straight forward but just how big of an operation is replacing the cams, setting the new cam timing etc. etc.?
Engine out procedure? Any recommendations for "while you are in there" stuff? Replace motor mounts?

Neither CG nor RS-Tuning mentions anything about a replacement cluth or pressure plate. Is it fair to assume then that the stock 993TT clutch/PP can be used?

Kevin

FYI

pferdestarke (ps) to horsepower

520 ps = 512.8 hp

Barney1

Ahhhh...the clutch will last a week if you have a sticky set of street tires. Ask me how I know.

bb993tt

^^ You'll get about 520 hp (not ps) from RUF. I had no clutch problems at all with the standard dual mass FW and some of the time I was running Toyo R888's.

DRPM

Great post - thanks for the thorough overview
Coincidently I performing the same due diligence for my 993TT and shall await the input from our fellow RL'ers.
Does anyone consider FVD as a package option?
DRPM

sfbanchs

i would add umw in your mix of options. FYI i had the fvd kit prior and like the umw much better

pstoppani

Ditto on the UMW options.

I had Stage I for 3 years and was super happy with it. I am now running some new UMW goodies on a UMW 3.6L engine (you'll have to PM Kevin for the HP figure ).

His new top of the line turbos are fantastic on the street and track.

OldGuy

From what I remember to get over 450 or so you have to go internal. youre not going to get 520 out of ECU and exhaust. RUF is an expert at this so pay your money and get a REAL 520. They will go in and rebuild your motor I think with all the correct stuff and you'll end up with a brand new motor and be confident in its quality.
Then you will have a RUF you can enter in the registry.

LAT

OG is correct in that you will need more than bolt ons to get 520hp regardless of who you use. Camshafts for one plus verifying the condition of parts.

As far as resale, I believe that Ruf has higher resale in the US however in Europe RS Tuning is as well respected as Ruf is.

FWIW; When I was trying to sell my CTR-2 in Europe I did not get a bite, I had to bring it to the US to sell it.

V

I never said I would get 520hp without rebuild?

CG and RS-Tuning both have the 520hp kits. CG has the "bolt-on kit" where as RS-Tuning modifies the heat exchangers, ports the cyliders etc (as per my initial post). CG claims though that by replacing the turbos to their K24/26 turbos and by replacing the cams (setting new cam-timing etc). You will have 520hk with TQ to boot (see attached dyno sheet in .pdf as per my initial post). This seems like the most cost-effective solution for me, with CG being local and all.. I don't see why the CG/RS-Tuning 520hp kit shouldn't be real? I think they are both respectable tuners. Replacing the cams is obviously no joke and would need careful disassembly and assembly of the engine, checking each and every component to make sure it's up to schmack.


I agree. I don't consider replacing the cams "bolt-on" though (as per above). Maybe it is?

As for resale, I think RUF has the edge here in Europe as well. I think in the case with your CTR-2, maybe it was just bad timing with the global crisis and all? But RS-Tuning is definately there in the mix. But could you call this CG kit "RS-Tuning"? I guess you can since the hardware is pretty much the same and RS-Tuning are the ones who developed the map...

V

I have the utmost respect for Kevin and his work . Plus, he seems like a stand up guy. I will shoot him an email and consider the options.

Lot's of factors to consider here. But the fact that CG is local to me and the fact that CG/RS-Tuning is a much more recognized tuner here in Europe (at least for the time being), which will help resale value a lot compared to UMW. I'm not saying that UMW is not top notch, I'm just saying that in Europe in general and in Sweden in particular, people are highly suspicious of ANY modifications done to a turbo unless it's a complete package done by a highly respectable and recognized tuner (RUF and RS-Tuning probably the only ones who qualify over here.. Well maybe SHK as well..).

I am still willing to consider any options. Havn't looked at FVD since the price is pretty much the same as CG/RS-Tuning and I can get the CG 520ps kit installed by my local representative, hopefully with a warranty as well.

Trying to picture what would be a ballpark amount of hours for an independant Porsche dealer to charge for installing the new turbos, new cams, setting cam timing etc...? Anyone?

Any input very much appreciated. I love discussions like these.

V

From an old but excellent thread:

https://rennlist.com/forums/993-turb...turbo-lag.html

Just thought I'd throw this in the mix. Once again, I think there is a slight difference between the RS-Tuning 520ps kit and the CG 520ps kit. CG: Bolt on while RS-Tuning gets their hands dirty (as per 1st post):

TB993tt

I have scanned in the RS engine dyno sheets for the single plug 520 kit. This is the sheet they would send to prospective customers - your results may vary.

The torque is limited by having the standard head sealing, to go more than 710NM (OK 735NM ) you need the EVO style flame ringing to allow the 1.2bar+ mid range overboost.

As has been pointed out to get the thing working right all other "bits" must be in fine fettle. MOD500 has this very build and ended up needing all new valve springs as this is a weak point in standard engines with a few miles on them which becomes apparent with the added power - this didn't show up on the engine dyno and we only got to know about this following extensive 60-130mph testing revealed that the power was not always there !!

The other problem is the turbos - RSK24/26s are now a bit "old hat", I'm sure Kevin can ellaborate although there are no new programs to deal with the later version 24/26s (OK there are but you will need twin plug and other stuff to work with that program)

I don't know what I'd do if starting afresh...... I know Phelix's felt like it had 100hp when he kindly let me drive it and it had a supposed ~480hp and smaller blowers IIRC. The beauty of the big 24/26s is they do give you that nice wallop of torque but with single plug, cams and 3.6 they do take a bit of winding up whereas something like the Ruf 490 comes on much earlier. I'd be tempted to see what Kevin has been doing with a smaller hybrid - do you have any proper dyno sheets Kevin (not the Sportec stuff ) or ideally a PB/DB data sheet 60-130 or similar ?




Edit:
Re Ruf........ I like Ruf car packages, I have owned a CTR and have bought other stuff over the years when I have visited him.....but. He is liked in the US and UK and some middle eastern countries. The main reason was the original yellowbird CTR which got him on the map big time, the numbers were fabulous in the day, 213mph in 1988 !!!! - it was RS who invented and built the engine for the yellowbird and then went on to beat the yellowbird in a 1/4mile acceleration test.
Ruf went on to build good 964 and 993 road engines, RS went on to build race winning aircooled twin turbo motors and become THE place for turbo race engines in Europe.
What is interesting is since the CG tie up the marketing machine of CG will put RS engines where they belong, witness the latest 0-300 shootout where the CG 997tt with 630PS/900NM beat the Ruf RT12 685NM/860NM by 2.5s !!!

I asked in Germany about Ruf and he has stated 685PS as the limit for the Mezger engine and appears to be very focused on electric technology and apparently has interests in some electric plants ! I still think his 993 turboR 490 is a good bit of kit

JBL930

I'd like to know what options there are with the K16/24's i currently have on my car, the engine is apart and being fitted with stronger rods, heads rebuilt but otherwise stock, 3.8RS cams with 964 rockers, single plug, plus the usual 100 cell cats, 5 bar FPR, muffler bypass pipes, air filter, blah etc.
Is there an optimum map for this set up? If so, who from and what kind of power would i expect?
I thought the only other option was the CG/RS tuning K24/26 route for a simple "bolt on" upgrade

Norske

Have you considered Todd Knighton of Protomotive?