View Poll Results: RWD or AWD 993tt
RWD
26
44.07%
AWD
33
55.93%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll
2WD vs AWD poll?
01-24-2009, 02:22 AM
#31
Burning Brakes
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If the rules allowed, I wonder if F1 would be AWD (or six- or eight- wheel drive as they were headed in the 80's for a brief moment.)
If a 911 goes into the scenery, it's most likely driver error and not necessarily something that the simple AWD can recover. Stability management (such as on my Prius) can recover all kinds of stupidity, but AWD can do only so much. It might be the road conditions or a mechanical failure or bird strike, but let's ignore everything like oil and put it under the heading of "it happens." If a 911 crashes without involving another car, it's the driver, not the car. Yes, this will be debated ad infinitum but, that's the joy of Web forums. Such as it is. And yes, AWD rally cars decimated the 2WD cars, but that's hardly relevant -- and by the time the 959 passed on some genes to the 964 and on to the 993, not much was left of the Paris Dakar cars.
If a 911 goes into the scenery, it's most likely driver error and not necessarily something that the simple AWD can recover. Stability management (such as on my Prius) can recover all kinds of stupidity, but AWD can do only so much. It might be the road conditions or a mechanical failure or bird strike, but let's ignore everything like oil and put it under the heading of "it happens." If a 911 crashes without involving another car, it's the driver, not the car. Yes, this will be debated ad infinitum but, that's the joy of Web forums. Such as it is. And yes, AWD rally cars decimated the 2WD cars, but that's hardly relevant -- and by the time the 959 passed on some genes to the 964 and on to the 993, not much was left of the Paris Dakar cars.
Several years ago a number of F1 teams used a front differential to generate more grip and better steering input. There was obviously no power to the front but the therory proved accurate before it was banned. So yes F1 would use anything that would enhance grip. The key is being able to put the power down sooner than later advantage AWD.
So if a 911 has an off its the driver! News Flash, porsche paid millions in product liability suits with the tail happy RWD 911 trubos which prompted the move to AWD. The untimely loss of grip with off throttle oversteer is based on the design limit so lets yank out the diff and go back to those days of yesteryear where only the real men could drive a 911...or ask the jury if it was driver error.
I didn't follow the part of the AWD not being relevent as I've hand many track adventures where AWD kept me on the track. I will venture to say the limits of the Prius stability are set so low the car will go into limp mode at the site of a race track. You can overcome the stability control but not the law of physics and the AWD creates greater adheasion which will allow HIGHER SPEEDS.
In every motorsport finding the maximum grip is the key...except drifting. Are you talking about drifting, if so your right.
01-24-2009, 04:58 AM
#32
CGT
Several years ago a number of F1 teams used a front differential to generate more grip and better steering input. There was obviously no power to the front but the therory proved accurate before it was banned. So yes F1 would use anything that would enhance grip. The key is being able to put the power down sooner than later advantage AWD.
So if a 911 has an off its the driver! News Flash, porsche paid millions in product liability suits with the tail happy RWD 911 trubos which prompted the move to AWD. The untimely loss of grip with off throttle oversteer is based on the design limit so lets yank out the diff and go back to those days of yesteryear where only the real men could drive a 911...or ask the jury if it was driver error.
I didn't follow the part of the AWD not being relevent as I've hand many track adventures where AWD kept me on the track. I will venture to say the limits of the Prius stability are set so low the car will go into limp mode at the site of a race track. You can overcome the stability control but not the law of physics and the AWD creates greater adheasion which will allow HIGHER SPEEDS.
In every motorsport finding the maximum grip is the key...except drifting. Are you talking about drifting, if so your right.
Several years ago a number of F1 teams used a front differential to generate more grip and better steering input. There was obviously no power to the front but the therory proved accurate before it was banned. So yes F1 would use anything that would enhance grip. The key is being able to put the power down sooner than later advantage AWD.
So if a 911 has an off its the driver! News Flash, porsche paid millions in product liability suits with the tail happy RWD 911 trubos which prompted the move to AWD. The untimely loss of grip with off throttle oversteer is based on the design limit so lets yank out the diff and go back to those days of yesteryear where only the real men could drive a 911...or ask the jury if it was driver error.
I didn't follow the part of the AWD not being relevent as I've hand many track adventures where AWD kept me on the track. I will venture to say the limits of the Prius stability are set so low the car will go into limp mode at the site of a race track. You can overcome the stability control but not the law of physics and the AWD creates greater adheasion which will allow HIGHER SPEEDS.
In every motorsport finding the maximum grip is the key...except drifting. Are you talking about drifting, if so your right.
Lift-off oversteer is a technique and, if poorly applied, not a particularly reliable one. Power-on oversteer, on the other hand, is a marvelous thin if taken just to the limit. This is why AWD is not as much fun as 2WD in a 911:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9jj8YGQWGA
I think of Drifting (with a capital D) as a form of spectator sport and a welcome addition to the ways young drivers develop an appreciation for motor sports. I rallied and hill-climbed as a kid and wished the car had enough power for oversteer, but I took pride in the occasional drift (in the old-school of the steering wheels pointed 'straight' while the car moved around the arc of the turn with all four wheels turning towards an imagined center of the circle along the radius of the turn.) But with less than 100hp pushing a 2000lb car through an open (rear) diff and three gears with no syncro on 1st, well, any slip angle meant the car was decelerating. : )
When I wrote "that's hardly relevant" in was in the context of my comment on the advent of AWD in rally cars, which is an important change of guard in motorsport and important on loose surfaces or circuit competition (didn't Audi carry some sort of handicap for running AWD in a 2WD field?) but not relevant to owning and enjoying driving a street car (on the street or on the track.) In my humble.
That lawyers convinced juries to have a "big" company pay individual or the family of the individual is law and unrelated to the reality of how some cultures and some countries will indemnify the idiot from looking in the mirror and seeing an idiot looking back. I've read that Porsch introduced AWD to make the 911 "safer" and then it came into the 993 Turbo and again it was said to be to make the car safer. Sometimes it was also said to make the car more functional year-round. Having seen drivers lose control of AWD 911's, I don't think there's much in it. But the news of the first of the 911 Turbos in the late 70's was always about one of the things ended up mangled or humorously stuck backwards on a fire hydrant or in a shop window. I just don't buy into the idea that raising the traction and speed stakes somehow protects the driver.
As for motorsport, no one factor outweighs all others. Limitless grip was found in the form of artificial, fan-driven down-force, but at the cost of vehicle weight, fuel consumption and most importantly, the safety of drivers and spectators alike. Grip is one factor to be balanced with power and weight and drag and fuel efficiency and tire wear and brake performance, and, and, and.
On the street and the track, more than once, I've felt the steering telling me the fronts were actively pulling my bacon out of the fire. And on a rainy day, I miss that front diff in the 993. But I'm happy to leave it in a box in an oily rag. And on those rainy days ... I drive Cayenne! : )
01-24-2009, 01:15 PM
#33
Burning Brakes
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From time to time, I get bored with F1 antics and whole seasons pass me by. Active steering, rule bending, bending wings, etc. Not the part of racing I like as a spectator.
Lift-off oversteer is a technique and, if poorly applied, not a particularly reliable one. Power-on oversteer, on the other hand, is a marvelous thin if taken just to the limit. This is why AWD is not as much fun as 2WD in a 911:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9jj8YGQWGA
I think of Drifting (with a capital D) as a form of spectator sport and a welcome addition to the ways young drivers develop an appreciation for motor sports. I rallied and hill-climbed as a kid and wished the car had enough power for oversteer, but I took pride in the occasional drift (in the old-school of the steering wheels pointed 'straight' while the car moved around the arc of the turn with all four wheels turning towards an imagined center of the circle along the radius of the turn.) But with less than 100hp pushing a 2000lb car through an open (rear) diff and three gears with no syncro on 1st, well, any slip angle meant the car was decelerating. : )
When I wrote "that's hardly relevant" in was in the context of my comment on the advent of AWD in rally cars, which is an important change of guard in motorsport and important on loose surfaces or circuit competition (didn't Audi carry some sort of handicap for running AWD in a 2WD field?) but not relevant to owning and enjoying driving a street car (on the street or on the track.) In my humble.
That lawyers convinced juries to have a "big" company pay individual or the family of the individual is law and unrelated to the reality of how some cultures and some countries will indemnify the idiot from looking in the mirror and seeing an idiot looking back. I've read that Porsch introduced AWD to make the 911 "safer" and then it came into the 993 Turbo and again it was said to be to make the car safer. Sometimes it was also said to make the car more functional year-round. Having seen drivers lose control of AWD 911's, I don't think there's much in it. But the news of the first of the 911 Turbos in the late 70's was always about one of the things ended up mangled or humorously stuck backwards on a fire hydrant or in a shop window. I just don't buy into the idea that raising the traction and speed stakes somehow protects the driver.
As for motorsport, no one factor outweighs all others. Limitless grip was found in the form of artificial, fan-driven down-force, but at the cost of vehicle weight, fuel consumption and most importantly, the safety of drivers and spectators alike. Grip is one factor to be balanced with power and weight and drag and fuel efficiency and tire wear and brake performance, and, and, and.
On the street and the track, more than once, I've felt the steering telling me the fronts were actively pulling my bacon out of the fire. And on a rainy day, I miss that front diff in the 993. But I'm happy to leave it in a box in an oily rag. And on those rainy days ... I drive Cayenne! : )
Lift-off oversteer is a technique and, if poorly applied, not a particularly reliable one. Power-on oversteer, on the other hand, is a marvelous thin if taken just to the limit. This is why AWD is not as much fun as 2WD in a 911:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9jj8YGQWGA
I think of Drifting (with a capital D) as a form of spectator sport and a welcome addition to the ways young drivers develop an appreciation for motor sports. I rallied and hill-climbed as a kid and wished the car had enough power for oversteer, but I took pride in the occasional drift (in the old-school of the steering wheels pointed 'straight' while the car moved around the arc of the turn with all four wheels turning towards an imagined center of the circle along the radius of the turn.) But with less than 100hp pushing a 2000lb car through an open (rear) diff and three gears with no syncro on 1st, well, any slip angle meant the car was decelerating. : )
When I wrote "that's hardly relevant" in was in the context of my comment on the advent of AWD in rally cars, which is an important change of guard in motorsport and important on loose surfaces or circuit competition (didn't Audi carry some sort of handicap for running AWD in a 2WD field?) but not relevant to owning and enjoying driving a street car (on the street or on the track.) In my humble.
That lawyers convinced juries to have a "big" company pay individual or the family of the individual is law and unrelated to the reality of how some cultures and some countries will indemnify the idiot from looking in the mirror and seeing an idiot looking back. I've read that Porsch introduced AWD to make the 911 "safer" and then it came into the 993 Turbo and again it was said to be to make the car safer. Sometimes it was also said to make the car more functional year-round. Having seen drivers lose control of AWD 911's, I don't think there's much in it. But the news of the first of the 911 Turbos in the late 70's was always about one of the things ended up mangled or humorously stuck backwards on a fire hydrant or in a shop window. I just don't buy into the idea that raising the traction and speed stakes somehow protects the driver.
As for motorsport, no one factor outweighs all others. Limitless grip was found in the form of artificial, fan-driven down-force, but at the cost of vehicle weight, fuel consumption and most importantly, the safety of drivers and spectators alike. Grip is one factor to be balanced with power and weight and drag and fuel efficiency and tire wear and brake performance, and, and, and.
On the street and the track, more than once, I've felt the steering telling me the fronts were actively pulling my bacon out of the fire. And on a rainy day, I miss that front diff in the 993. But I'm happy to leave it in a box in an oily rag. And on those rainy days ... I drive Cayenne! : )
A succinct and poignant respone that didn't begin with the word "bro"
well done.Yes, yes the untlimited grip of the GTP, one wonders if they could drive upside down.
My former Cayenne turbo was wonderful in weather as well, but other factors..its thirst for 4.50@ gallon premium, burning through Michelin Diamares tires every 10k miles and the seemingly need for brake pads that kept me on a first name bases with the porsche parts man. i sold it quickly when gas dropped to $3.00.
It seems that a new waive of RWD advocates (most likely due to the GT2's perfomance) need to experience first hand an off at speed. I'm still a believer that the AWD improved the 993tt masking the shortcomings.
01-24-2009, 01:27 PM
#34
CGT,
A succinct and poignant respone that didn't begin with the word "bro" well done.
Yes, yes the untlimited grip of the GTP, one wonders if they could drive upside down.
My former Cayenne turbo was wonderful in weather as well, but other factors..its thirst for 4.50@ gallon premium, burning through Michelin Diamares tires every 10k miles and the seemingly need for brake pads that kept me on a first name bases with the porsche parts man. i sold it quickly when gas dropped to $3.00.
It seems that a new waive of RWD advocates (most likely due to the GT2's perfomance) need to experience first hand an off at speed. I'm still a believer that the AWD improved the 993tt masking the shortcomings.
A succinct and poignant respone that didn't begin with the word "bro"
well done.Yes, yes the untlimited grip of the GTP, one wonders if they could drive upside down.
My former Cayenne turbo was wonderful in weather as well, but other factors..its thirst for 4.50@ gallon premium, burning through Michelin Diamares tires every 10k miles and the seemingly need for brake pads that kept me on a first name bases with the porsche parts man. i sold it quickly when gas dropped to $3.00.
It seems that a new waive of RWD advocates (most likely due to the GT2's perfomance) need to experience first hand an off at speed. I'm still a believer that the AWD improved the 993tt masking the shortcomings.
Wait. Oh yeah. I deleted half my post just before hitting send. Pity I didn't check the typo's first. : )
And for the record, the 993 Turbo is devoid of any shortcoming. So there.
I can't say the fuel "economy" of the Cayenne Turbo is fun, but it just could never drink enough $5 gas to make any deeper the crater of depreciation it creates. : ) Mine has the factory Power Kit (which I enjoy to the tune of 6 or 8 mpg from time to time) but I just cruised up hill from SF to Tahoe at an average 60 mph for 200 miles and returned 16 mpg. That's nowhere near as painful as the Range Rover, which barely keeps itself over 10mpg despite having 400 something horsepower compared to the 500 something that the Cayenne uses to scythe through traffic. : )
01-24-2009, 03:43 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
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Succinct? Poignant?
Wait. Oh yeah. I deleted half my post just before hitting send. Pity I didn't check the typo's first. : )
And for the record, the 993 Turbo is devoid of any shortcoming. So there.
I can't say the fuel "economy" of the Cayenne Turbo is fun, but it just could never drink enough $5 gas to make any deeper the crater of depreciation it creates. : ) Mine has the factory Power Kit (which I enjoy to the tune of 6 or 8 mpg from time to time) but I just cruised up hill from SF to Tahoe at an average 60 mph for 200 miles and returned 16 mpg. That's nowhere near as painful as the Range Rover, which barely keeps itself over 10mpg despite having 400 something horsepower compared to the 500 something that the Cayenne uses to scythe through traffic. : )
Wait. Oh yeah. I deleted half my post just before hitting send. Pity I didn't check the typo's first. : )
And for the record, the 993 Turbo is devoid of any shortcoming. So there.
I can't say the fuel "economy" of the Cayenne Turbo is fun, but it just could never drink enough $5 gas to make any deeper the crater of depreciation it creates. : ) Mine has the factory Power Kit (which I enjoy to the tune of 6 or 8 mpg from time to time) but I just cruised up hill from SF to Tahoe at an average 60 mph for 200 miles and returned 16 mpg. That's nowhere near as painful as the Range Rover, which barely keeps itself over 10mpg despite having 400 something horsepower compared to the 500 something that the Cayenne uses to scythe through traffic. : )
Funny, I sold mine to a couple who were going use it from SF to Tahoe, must be the ride of choice over the common Range Rover.
01-24-2009, 04:13 PM
#36
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Flying over turn 9 at Thunder Hill on a chilly day with cold tires and intercooler shows me the value of AWD as I spin all 4 and walk away from the Z06s.
01-24-2009, 09:51 PM
#38
Since most regulations are based on weight and power (restrictors), an AWD against 2WD would be devastating. No matter where Weight and Power have been the same, introduction of race AWD gets a penalty. Standard for about any series.
01-24-2009, 11:03 PM
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01-25-2009, 12:07 AM
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01-25-2009, 12:01 PM
#42
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Just condensing what has been said in this post already but there is a big difference between AWD and the 993tt drive system. An AWD system (by definition) uses a center differential and is constantly distributing torque to all the corners. The 993tt uses a VC and only transmits torque when there is a speed difference between the front and rear axles. This means there is already going to be some loss of traction at the rear before any useable amount of power goes into the front, and that is when your VC is in optimum condition. The 993 has a small VC and with any medium mileage it tends to “soften” and it’s way to becoming pretty worn and useless. At slows speeds, below 30 IIRC the ABB or whatever Porsche called it also uses the anti-lock brake circuit to aide in traction control across car giving it much better slow speed snow / rain traction.
Also to agree will several, AWD does not improve “handling” if anything it has to diminish it do to a higher unsprung weight. BUT, not optimum handling does not mean the car will be slower around a track. Getting the power down earlier and being able to use all of it will substantially increase the car’s speed and lap times. That is the advantage that AWD brings.
As for RWD 993 I would not change back. For those who feel that a 993 RWD may be a bit undrivable for their skill level a little seat time will change your mind. It does transform the car giving it a lighter more nimble feel. For partial track use you can also run greater camber and castor settings without creating any torque steer issues. Also lets you play with different tire diameter F&R since they no longer need to be matched.
If you are wondering about scary handling in slippery conditions all I can say is no more than any other vehicle with big power in a short wheelbase. During the fall hurricane season downpours I did 380 miles in a 3-day track session and at no time did the rain lighten up enough to let the lakes drain. That is with RWD only and 498hp at the rear tires. Not too much tiptoeing either. My speeds on the main straight in the dry average around 145-148 and I was seeing 125 in the wet with street rubber. Never underestimate the fabulous mechanical grip of a 993 rear.
Rick
Also to agree will several, AWD does not improve “handling” if anything it has to diminish it do to a higher unsprung weight. BUT, not optimum handling does not mean the car will be slower around a track. Getting the power down earlier and being able to use all of it will substantially increase the car’s speed and lap times. That is the advantage that AWD brings.
As for RWD 993 I would not change back. For those who feel that a 993 RWD may be a bit undrivable for their skill level a little seat time will change your mind. It does transform the car giving it a lighter more nimble feel. For partial track use you can also run greater camber and castor settings without creating any torque steer issues. Also lets you play with different tire diameter F&R since they no longer need to be matched.
If you are wondering about scary handling in slippery conditions all I can say is no more than any other vehicle with big power in a short wheelbase. During the fall hurricane season downpours I did 380 miles in a 3-day track session and at no time did the rain lighten up enough to let the lakes drain. That is with RWD only and 498hp at the rear tires. Not too much tiptoeing either. My speeds on the main straight in the dry average around 145-148 and I was seeing 125 in the wet with street rubber. Never underestimate the fabulous mechanical grip of a 993 rear.
Rick
01-25-2009, 03:45 PM
#45
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Just condensing what has been said in this post already but there is a big difference between AWD and the 993tt drive system. An AWD system (by definition) uses a center differential and is constantly distributing torque to all the corners. The 993tt uses a VC and only transmits torque when there is a speed difference between the front and rear axles. This means there is already going to be some loss of traction at the rear before any useable amount of power goes into the front, and that is when your VC is in optimum condition. The 993 has a small VC and with any medium mileage it tends to “soften” and it’s way to becoming pretty worn and useless. At slows speeds, below 30 IIRC the ABB or whatever Porsche called it also uses the anti-lock brake circuit to aide in traction control across car giving it much better slow speed snow / rain traction.
Also to agree will several, AWD does not improve “handling” if anything it has to diminish it do to a higher unsprung weight. BUT, not optimum handling does not mean the car will be slower around a track. Getting the power down earlier and being able to use all of it will substantially increase the car’s speed and lap times. That is the advantage that AWD brings.
As for RWD 993 I would not change back. For those who feel that a 993 RWD may be a bit undrivable for their skill level a little seat time will change your mind. It does transform the car giving it a lighter more nimble feel. For partial track use you can also run greater camber and castor settings without creating any torque steer issues. Also lets you play with different tire diameter F&R since they no longer need to be matched.
If you are wondering about scary handling in slippery conditions all I can say is no more than any other vehicle with big power in a short wheelbase. During the fall hurricane season downpours I did 380 miles in a 3-day track session and at no time did the rain lighten up enough to let the lakes drain. That is with RWD only and 498hp at the rear tires. Not too much tiptoeing either. My speeds on the main straight in the dry average around 145-148 and I was seeing 125 in the wet with street rubber. Never underestimate the fabulous mechanical grip of a 993 rear.
Rick
Also to agree will several, AWD does not improve “handling” if anything it has to diminish it do to a higher unsprung weight. BUT, not optimum handling does not mean the car will be slower around a track. Getting the power down earlier and being able to use all of it will substantially increase the car’s speed and lap times. That is the advantage that AWD brings.
As for RWD 993 I would not change back. For those who feel that a 993 RWD may be a bit undrivable for their skill level a little seat time will change your mind. It does transform the car giving it a lighter more nimble feel. For partial track use you can also run greater camber and castor settings without creating any torque steer issues. Also lets you play with different tire diameter F&R since they no longer need to be matched.
If you are wondering about scary handling in slippery conditions all I can say is no more than any other vehicle with big power in a short wheelbase. During the fall hurricane season downpours I did 380 miles in a 3-day track session and at no time did the rain lighten up enough to let the lakes drain. That is with RWD only and 498hp at the rear tires. Not too much tiptoeing either. My speeds on the main straight in the dry average around 145-148 and I was seeing 125 in the wet with street rubber. Never underestimate the fabulous mechanical grip of a 993 rear.
Rick
enhance the drama with less chassis balance becasue you've removed weight and grip from the front. It's not straight line speed that gets you in trouble it's high speed sweepers. Ever wonder why all porsche crashes are *** end first?
You are very lucky or a very good driver that hasn't lost the rear end in a 600 hp turbo.