V

Having recently sold my C2S I have started looking for a ROW 993TT. I am trying to figure out how big a premium I should pay for a WLSII 450hp car vs. the WLS1 430hp cars and the standard 408hp cars.. The WLS1 430hp cars simply have the Turbo S additional oilcooler (1K euros) and a reprogrammed 430hp ECU so that wouldn't be worth much extra dough over stock.

When looking at Gerts site, the 450hp kit includes:

-Turbo S additional oil cooler
-k24 turbos
-450 hp ECU
-Installation hardware
-Twin exhaust tips

The kit is priced at ~6000euro. However, I will probably opt. for a Gt Oil cooler (RUF/Cargraphic), I'm not interested in the twin exhaust tips and the standard ECU (MY'97) can be programmed so it really boils down to:

-Cost of k24 turbos (minus second hand value of the old k16 turbos already on the car, if sold separately after install)
-Installation hardware
-Labour

What's a ballpark figure for labour costs?

Ofcourse it would feel better having a car with the 450hp package on the hood sticker (vs retrofitted) but it also limits my search quite a bit. If in the end, the premium I should expect to pay (accprding to above) ends up being 4Keuros, then I have lots of more to chose from if I chose a 408hp turbo and brand new k24s to boot!

If I opt for a car with the package already installed (450hp), with let's say 100.000kms. What's the typical lifespan of a set of turbos? Do you simply rebuild them or do you have to buy new if they fail? That would be another
reason to start with a 408hp car.

Sorry for all the questions, I'm kind of new to the turbo world

TIA and have a nice weekend

ca993twin

Viggo,

I can't answer all of your questions, but I've heard that turbos typically last around 75k miles if properly cooled after use, some last longer. They are not difficult or too expensive to rebuild.

You seem to have the factory 450HP kit firmly in mind. Is that for your own peace of mind? for resale value? As I'm sure you are aware, there are many aftermarket kits that will outperform the 450 factory kit, and probably for less money (especially with the weak dollar).

Good luck with your search. I wish I had a pocket full of Euros right now!

V

Thanks for chiming in Steve . Yes have the factory 450hp firmly in mind .Although that's just partly true. I did quite a bit of reading here on RL and elsewhere (more to come I'm sure) and my idea is the following:

-Replace k16 turbos with k24 turbos
-Add an extra oil cooler (turbo-S or GT (Cargraphic/RUF) depending on how much I will track the car)
-Replace the standard exhaust setup with 100 or 200 cell sport cats and muffler bypasses (better sound, bit less back pressure while still street legal)
-Optional (maybe) Lightweight flywheel/clutch packge

Then when I have this stuff bolted on I'll take the car to a really good independant Porsche Specialist for a real remap. I like the thought that the k24s are still OEM Porsche parts (an available upgrade). It's just the software (remap) that will not be stock. I will have them reprogram my standard ECU instead of paying $$$ for a 450hp OEM ECU. In the process I will gain hp and reduce lag (I hope) vs. the stock 450hp ECU.

Target $$ = no idea?
Target HP = 470-500hp with reduced lag. I'm willing to sacrifice hp to reduce lag. I also want to keep the boost pressure at a minimum to aviod stressing the engine.. I this using the parts described and letting someone knowledagable do a remap with all the pieces on the car would be most effective..

Is that for your own peace of mind? for resale value?
A little bit of both. Not that it's the plan but should I decide to sell the car I'm sure it will be easier if I have used original porsche parts in the upgrade. It just feels better (piece of mind) to use Original parts..

But as I said, I'm new to this so.. Still learning.. Opinions much appreciated!

Fact is, there are many cars out there with standard configuration (k16/408hp) but not so many already with the 450hp upgrade. It's good to know how much it will cost because if it turns out it will cost ~6Keuros, that's roughly the premium the 450hp cars commands. If I then aim for a standard 408hp car there are loads more to chose from. Then I'll do the upgrade afterwards.

Felix

New K24's for the 993 are usually listed on the US ebay site for about $3900 per pair...

aperalta

It is my understanding that if you go with K24's you will have the lag time that these turbos are known for. If you want the best of both worlds, then you go with Kevin's hybrid K16/24's. Im sure there are Rennlisters here who have this set up and will chime in.

Felix

From my own experience I'm not convinced that the UMW stage 2 (which I have) is suited for track use as it seems to run too high a boost level and thereby over time overheats the air going into the engine causing the motronic to reduce boost and timing. My Vmax with the UMW stage 2 is less than with the factory 430 ECU. There's no doubt it's great for the street though; it's got loads of "area under the curve" until the heat builds up under prolonged full throttle work.

GIA

Viggo,
Compared to K16, K24 will always be a little more laggy.
That's what everybody wants, bigger turbo and less lag, but one need to sacrifice something.
If you want the best solution, my opinion is to go for K24, but with HyFlow K24 Comp Wheel.
This will give you more air and improved spool up time VS original K24.

I heard Kevin has such a solution.
Gia

Autobahn

I had the 450 hp kit added to my car when I was still living in Germany. Unless you get to drive your car on the Autobahn or do any other type of high speed driving it will not be of much use as the additional power comes at higher RPM.

I think it is the best kit out there in terms of piece of mind and resale value, i.e. it will not hurt resale value. EUR 6000 is very cheap. It used to be twice that from Porsche.

V

Ok, that seems logical. So spirited driving does not rise motortemp too much? If you were to reconfigure your setup again, would you go for what you have now or would you chose a different route?

Good to know the price of the k24s and that they are on fleabay.

With regards to k24 and lag, my understading is that the lag is not strictly produced by the turbos themselves (k26 vs. k16) but rather from the stock programmed 450hp ECU. Phelix said it before in another thread I believe: The 450hp stockconfiguration (k24s + 450hp ECU) has better peak power than the 430hp package, but is marginally faster overall (if at all?) due to the huge lag when compared to the 430hp configuration. This lag however, can be greatly reduced by reflashing the ECU by a professional tuner. Not only do you get more power (470-480 vs. 450) but also less lag. That's what I have heared/read. I might be wrong. I think that Porsche programmed the 450hp ECU to be on the defensive side of things, thus producing less hp and less stress on the egine.. Maybe someone with k24s can chime in if they have managed to reduce lag. I'm not sure going from k16 to k24 will always mean more lag.. At least I hope not.

Interesting point GIA about the Hypok24 Comp. wheel. Care to expand a little?

race.it

Hi Viggo,

It seams lucky that I got mine out of Sweden before you started to look for this

John

PorschePhD

Contact Kevin at UMW he has solutions that work well for the 993TTs.

V

hehe, you are right John.. I guess timing is everything right?

zweistein

Hi Viggo,

it sounds like you would like to improve the Porsche WLSII kit.
That is certainly a good idea.
IMHO however I would say that the resale value of a 993TT is only higher if the WLSII kit is installed by an official Porsche dealer.
As soon as you start doing modifications on your own , combining others ideas or similar resale value will be lower.
You have more fun, because you enjoy doing the modifications, and the market lets you pay for it.
If you want to sell a modified car at a higher price then you have to convince the buyer that the car is better than the original Porsche. This is usually diffcult as you compete against more than 50 years of experience and against an extremly successful Porsche Motorsport division.

Enjoy your 993TT it is a wonderful car.

Bass993

Viggo: I did exactly what you intend to do. I installed factory K24's by a Porsche dealer with .5 bar Fuel pressure regulator, FVD ECU and boost valves. The car is compeltely different, more fun to drive and maybe 500 rpm slower on spool up but hey, after 1 gear you are on the boost and gone... So far,because I don't track the car, I don't seem to need the added oil cooler in our cooler Minnesota clime. You will love the change to make a fast car even faster. Good luck! Pat

Carrera GT

I tend to agree with this advice. The K24's are bolt-in simple and while they introduce some lag, they are a semi cost-effective way to take the engine from 400-ish closer 500.

That's probably 9.0 bar FPR and billet diverter valves. As for programming, you have a couple of choices such as Protomotive and EVO (evoms.com) but I imagine there are shops closer to you.

And you would still want to look to getting the 24's "improved" at some point (by Kevin for example.)

If you want to relieve back pressure, the headers are fine, but better cats and cans will certainly help along with the additional cooling already noted.

There's no need to spend huge dollars if you're staying under the 500-520 HP and ftlb this engine can deliver without internal fortification.

Don't forget suspension, brakes and safety gear in the budget. : )