Porsche Leakdown Test Opinion
02-07-2008, 04:14 PM
#17
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Yes I might, if this is fair market value for those cars, and it has what I am looking for. Where I live, I would pay $45k-50k for such a car. If I have a consistent 8% leak down across the board on my stock 993TT, I would not even begin to worry personally.
02-07-2008, 04:22 PM
#18
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Hence my point.. Folks I would ALSO buy a 993TT for 45K, 50K would be a stretch.. The math has worked out. You can afford to do a topend overhaul on a 993TT with a leakdown for 45K.. Even at 50K you can drive the car and save your pennies...
But that's not the case with the selling ads on Auto-trader or Ebay. People are expecting to sell these cars for $65 and 75K.. When a new owner comes home and can't smog his car.. He typically spends 15K.. Now you are into your car $80 to 90K.. That's tough to stomach.. It's reality.. There are TWO owners, that are Rennlist users/members that have had this happen in the last two months. Sad but it is a very real reality.
But that's not the case with the selling ads on Auto-trader or Ebay. People are expecting to sell these cars for $65 and 75K.. When a new owner comes home and can't smog his car.. He typically spends 15K.. Now you are into your car $80 to 90K.. That's tough to stomach.. It's reality.. There are TWO owners, that are Rennlist users/members that have had this happen in the last two months. Sad but it is a very real reality.
02-08-2008, 12:05 AM
#19
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Agree with Kevin 100% as a former techie. 8-10% across the board on a 80k mile 11 yr old car is probably acceptable, but you know they're all gonna need a topend sooner or later. Like Kevin said, once you've got 80-90k into the high mile car(that you probably bought outright bc obtaining a loan is almost impossible on a 12 yo 70k car, and refi's are dead), it doesn't sit well. Esp when resale is tough enough as it is. jmo of course.
02-08-2008, 12:30 AM
#20
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Jean,
Would you pay $175K for a 993tt?
Just ALL be glad that you dont live here.....
Man - these cars are 10y.o. MIN - As an owner there will be maintenance.... If you cant afford to maintain it - then you cant afford to BUY it!!!!!
They are 10 YEARS OLD !!!!
I think (happy to be corrected) that Scott was saying that the leakdown numbers (provided that are within 4% of each other) are really a moot point - be it 6% or 8%..Now if the car was BRAND new - then leakdown numbers would MEAN more - but would they matter?
Just an idoits (me) view!
Simon.
Would you pay $175K for a 993tt?
Just ALL be glad that you dont live here.....
Man - these cars are 10y.o. MIN - As an owner there will be maintenance.... If you cant afford to maintain it - then you cant afford to BUY it!!!!!
They are 10 YEARS OLD !!!!
I think (happy to be corrected) that Scott was saying that the leakdown numbers (provided that are within 4% of each other) are really a moot point - be it 6% or 8%..Now if the car was BRAND new - then leakdown numbers would MEAN more - but would they matter?
Just an idoits (me) view!
Simon.
02-08-2008, 12:56 AM
#21
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Let me recap again on the leakdown numbers since this thread has diverted, as it seems like there is something going on behind the scenes.
Scott Mellor's post simply said that some people with vast porsche experience told him that a 8-10% leak down is perfectly acceptable (it did not say it is great, and you should go an buy a car at any price).
I am not sure how we got into what is fair price for car x with mileage y and z% leakage, or whether it passes smog tests or not (which does not mean necessarily a top end rebuild is needed), we can have that debate, but it was not what the initial post was about.
It is common sense that an aircooled Porsche turbo with high mileage is prone to need a top end rebuild, this is why the tech forum is here.
TT surgeon, as you said, "sooner or later you have to"... Do I feel bad for the buyer who has just paid $70k+ for a car that turns out to need a top end eventually? Of COURSE, who wouldn't, then again, if it is a keeper, it is something you want to do. If the buyer was misinformed, that is a whole different ballgame, but there is no drama around those 8-10% numbers, then again opinions are like ... as just read on that LAPorsche thread .
Scott Mellor's post simply said that some people with vast porsche experience told him that a 8-10% leak down is perfectly acceptable (it did not say it is great, and you should go an buy a car at any price).
I am not sure how we got into what is fair price for car x with mileage y and z% leakage, or whether it passes smog tests or not (which does not mean necessarily a top end rebuild is needed), we can have that debate, but it was not what the initial post was about.
It is common sense that an aircooled Porsche turbo with high mileage is prone to need a top end rebuild, this is why the tech forum is here.
TT surgeon, as you said, "sooner or later you have to"... Do I feel bad for the buyer who has just paid $70k+ for a car that turns out to need a top end eventually? Of COURSE, who wouldn't, then again, if it is a keeper, it is something you want to do. If the buyer was misinformed, that is a whole different ballgame, but there is no drama around those 8-10% numbers, then again opinions are like ... as just read on that LAPorsche thread
.
02-08-2008, 01:25 AM
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Jean, I think there has been a slight misunderstanding in this thread. The use of "k" regarding $$ has been mixed up with the "k" in miles. The car in question is a '97 Black/Black TT with 24k miles on it, and I am currently awaiting delivery on it to Pennsylvania. I had asked Scott to check it out for me, and to ask his friend at the dealership what he thought of the car. I had also spoken to Kevin before I made the purchase. Both were very helpful and accomodating, particularly since I had just joined the night before, and wasn't sure what I was getting myself into.
End result, I bought the car with leakdown averaging about 8%, and should have it delivered in about 10 days (vacation to Utah forces me to postpone delivery right now). Based on my other vehicles (except work vehicle), I'll be lucky to put 800-1000 miles/year on the car, so I hope to keep any major repairs maintenance issues to a minimum.
This forum has been a great source of information for me as a first time Porsche owner (finally). Thanks again to Kevin and Scott for their input into this purchase. I hope I'm able to reciprocate at some point. Al
End result, I bought the car with leakdown averaging about 8%, and should have it delivered in about 10 days (vacation to Utah forces me to postpone delivery right now). Based on my other vehicles (except work vehicle), I'll be lucky to put 800-1000 miles/year on the car, so I hope to keep any major repairs maintenance issues to a minimum.
This forum has been a great source of information for me as a first time Porsche owner (finally). Thanks again to Kevin and Scott for their input into this purchase. I hope I'm able to reciprocate at some point. Al
02-08-2008, 01:26 AM
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This thread post was and is about a leadown test opinion. It should then be broken down into two relevant goalposts. Numbers that belongs to a car that you own vs a car that you are buying.
Leakdown numbers don't heal themselves.. You don't have 8% across the board, and then wake up the next morning for a new set of numbers running in at 4%..
It is a well known published fact that numbers within 5% of each other are good.. The reason is that the power output per cylinder is equal.. BUT, with a turbocharged air-cooled engine caution needs to be in order. The leakdown numbers is a barometer of engine health and wear, particularly the valve guides.
We should treat the leakdown as a oil sample analysis. One watches for metal/wear.
The guidelines that I have mentioned will have a direct correlation to valve guide wear. The piston rings wear very little, it is the exhaust valves guides that are the culprit. Toss in a bad cylinder to head seal and you have a elevated reading for a cylinder.
If you buy a 993TT with 8% leakdown, the valveguide wear is greater than at a 3% or 4% reading. At 10% you have measurable wear between the valve and valve guide.
My focus point and "soapbox" is preaching to folks that are interested in buying a 993TT. Spend the money for a low leakdown engine. If the numbers fall between 2 to 4% you have a "great" engine, with many miles ahead of you. If you see numbers that are 8%, you are on a sliding scale, the next leakdown will be 10%.. In the end it's your money, make the seller lower the price or have him fix the engine.
As far as owners that have a 8% leakdown, I would drive the car another year and check the numbers. If they get worse in a year you might want to start to consider a topend. If they stay at 8% drive the car.
The 2 cars that I mentioned failed emissions, the engine did have failed/worn guides. I didn't see any of the parts nor engine. Just reports from the owners.
Leakdown numbers don't heal themselves.. You don't have 8% across the board, and then wake up the next morning for a new set of numbers running in at 4%..
It is a well known published fact that numbers within 5% of each other are good.. The reason is that the power output per cylinder is equal.. BUT, with a turbocharged air-cooled engine caution needs to be in order. The leakdown numbers is a barometer of engine health and wear, particularly the valve guides.
We should treat the leakdown as a oil sample analysis. One watches for metal/wear.
The guidelines that I have mentioned will have a direct correlation to valve guide wear. The piston rings wear very little, it is the exhaust valves guides that are the culprit. Toss in a bad cylinder to head seal and you have a elevated reading for a cylinder.
If you buy a 993TT with 8% leakdown, the valveguide wear is greater than at a 3% or 4% reading. At 10% you have measurable wear between the valve and valve guide.
My focus point and "soapbox" is preaching to folks that are interested in buying a 993TT. Spend the money for a low leakdown engine. If the numbers fall between 2 to 4% you have a "great" engine, with many miles ahead of you. If you see numbers that are 8%, you are on a sliding scale, the next leakdown will be 10%.. In the end it's your money, make the seller lower the price or have him fix the engine.
As far as owners that have a 8% leakdown, I would drive the car another year and check the numbers. If they get worse in a year you might want to start to consider a topend. If they stay at 8% drive the car.
The 2 cars that I mentioned failed emissions, the engine did have failed/worn guides. I didn't see any of the parts nor engine. Just reports from the owners.
02-08-2008, 01:28 AM
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If I was presented with a 993TT for 70K and 8% leakdown check I would IMMEDIATELY buy a 997 GT3
Oh Wait I did.
I am just glad the info is here. I plan one day in getting back into the 993TT that I miss.
Oh Wait I did.
I am just glad the info is here. I plan one day in getting back into the 993TT that I miss.
Last edited by OldGuy; 02-08-2008 at 02:05 AM.
02-08-2008, 01:33 AM
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Al, Goodluck and best wishes, hopefully you will have many good driving miles ahead of you.
The two gentlemen that had topends were in full tilt when we talked. Sad to spend the monies that you have to find out (unplanned) that you need to pony up more monies for engine repairs.
Paul, don't you miss the air-cooled engine smell.. The nice aroma when you turn on the defroster.. 8% leakdown on a water boxer would point to many miles left in the tank.
The two gentlemen that had topends were in full tilt when we talked. Sad to spend the monies that you have to find out (unplanned) that you need to pony up more monies for engine repairs.
Paul, don't you miss the air-cooled engine smell.. The nice aroma when you turn on the defroster.. 8% leakdown on a water boxer would point to many miles left in the tank.
02-08-2008, 01:36 AM
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Just noticed the near-simultaneous posts. Thanks for the help before and the well-wishes. I'm just looking forward to getting the car, and then the thaw in Pittsburgh to get behind the wheel!
02-08-2008, 01:45 AM
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Kevin yes I miss the REAL Porsche smell. But I have been hooked on the intoxicating sound of the 3
there are two kinds of people the Torque monkeys(TT guys) and rev junkies(GT3 guys).
I have become a Rev Junkie
there are two kinds of people the Torque monkeys(TT guys) and rev junkies(GT3 guys).
I have become a Rev Junkie
02-08-2008, 01:51 AM
#29
Why do I feel so left out!
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Cant I be both?
02-08-2008, 01:58 AM
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Mark, I overlooked your post.. Sorry..
If you have a cylinder that is reading 20%.. You can easily hear where you failed part is. If it is your piston rings you can hear the 20lbs of air out your breather/vent lines. If it is a intake valve you will hear the air in your intake system. A bad valve or guide will vent the air and noise out your tailpipes. A breached cylinder liner to cylinder head seal will also be noticed.
If you do have 20%, I'd be saving some pennies and thinking about fixing the issue or issues. The longer you wait the more expensive it gets to repair the worn parts. Going into the engine sooner most often than not allows you to just re-ring the engine, and replace seat and valves. Tossing a head or new pistons and liners will double your parts bill.
If you have a cylinder that is reading 20%.. You can easily hear where you failed part is. If it is your piston rings you can hear the 20lbs of air out your breather/vent lines. If it is a intake valve you will hear the air in your intake system. A bad valve or guide will vent the air and noise out your tailpipes. A breached cylinder liner to cylinder head seal will also be noticed.
If you do have 20%, I'd be saving some pennies and thinking about fixing the issue or issues. The longer you wait the more expensive it gets to repair the worn parts. Going into the engine sooner most often than not allows you to just re-ring the engine, and replace seat and valves. Tossing a head or new pistons and liners will double your parts bill.