911/Q45

Careful application of trail braking should get you as crisp a turn in as you want with awd. Emphasis on "careful", which should be no problem for you 2wd afficianados!

MarkD

Lot's of things get beat to death on these forums... why should this be any different? It adds to the fun!

Since we are still beating the dead horse:
It appears that if you are tracking one of these cars awd is preferred by most.

Driving at less extreme levels (i.e. street) it sure seems like it would be more enjoyable with the lighter steering feel that 2wd provides.
This is based on my own very limited and clearly uneducated observations.

Acropora

So switching back to awd will improve my lap times? If that's the case I'd consider putting it back in. Thing is the steering feels so much better w/o the awd.

graeme36s

Sorry Jimmy I can't agree. The fact that Jeff Zwart was far quicker up Pikes Peak in a 993 TT than a 996 GT2 is not a margin to set a standard by. Who prepped either car, did the 996GT2 have a crap set up who knows. Yep Porsche stuck a big wing on the back of the GT2 and the RSR but it won't come into play unless you are going rather quickly. AWD does not give you more grip but allows you potentially more traction. If AWD worked that well Porsche would have been running AWD GT2's. Porsche engineered in understeer with AWD. It was done so fewer people would get into trouble. If they pushed a little hard the car would start to wash out, allowing them to back off in safety and carry on their merry way. Does not make it nice and does not make it fast but it does make it safe. If you loose it in an AWD car your only option is to back off and pray it retains some grip. With 2wd you have more options. Yep I know I am an experienced racer. I cut my teeth on a 3.2 Carrera road car, got bitten by the 911 bug and then raced one and so on. The GT2 feels tactile like the old cars did except far better balanced, traction is good and on say roundabouts you can have her sliding around confidentaly (unlike my 964 3.6 turbo). My guess a 2wd TT with a decent set up should feel somewhat similar. Having driven a road going GT2 CS on toyo 888's around silverstone and having a little play with a chap that races a 996 supercup car in BritCar and he was on slicks it took precisely stowe, abbey and bridge to drop him a very long way back, Awesome weapon. You just can't beat that torque coming out of the corner. Did Vic who owns the car have his eyes shut as whe went into Stowe after making over 170 down the Hanger Straight. Yes he did
p.s. bb993tt. No problem. First track day in 2008 I'll send you a PM. Two issues. No.1 I must be mad to track it and No.2 you'll want one.
p.p.s. Having driven a 993 C4 around millbrook proving ground they felt far better balanced than the TT. You could have it sideways absolutely everywhere, I have know idea what Porsche did different on the C4 to the TT but it was much much better.

bb993tt

Thanks, Graeme. I'll take my chances if you will.

JJayB

Graeme,
Your entiltled to your opinion. Don't lift and if you get enough speed up and you do, remember the *** end hits the wall first.

TB993tt

Not necessarily, was that not down to racing regs (of the day) and weight ?

Very interesting and pertinent to this topic was the racing 993GT2 I saw being prepared at RS Tuning a couple of years ago
It had had an off so was in need of a some bodywork -(the owner was a wealthy Swiss guy with a stable full of exotics who incidentally drove a 550hp 993tt 4WD as his daily driver) The car had a freshly rebuilt high 600s hp Secan EVO engine ( a real EVO engine ) and RS had engineered a 996tt 4WD system to fit the 993 chassis, it had advantages in weight as well as function....

OK you may be able to say the guy was a crap driver or maybe a 2WD GT2 with 6XXhp/8XXNM has different traction issues to a sub 500hp one - but I was told that the car was much faster round the track in its new guise and obviously "easier" to drive....

My opinion is that a sub 500hp/650NM 2WD 993tt is probably a very nice drive for dry roads but anything above that figure becomes a bucking monster which attempts to spit you off the road every time the torque comes in (MOD500 tried driving mine in 2WD and seriously nearly went into the hedge the first time the torque hit ), dial in some wet weather and even 650NM will land you in trouble....

tar6day

Pos Car Time Performed by
1. Radical SR8 6:55 Michael Vergers
2. Donkervoort D8 RS 7:14.89 Michael Düchting
3. Radical SR3 Turbo 7:19 Phil Bennett
4. Pagani Zonda F Clubsport 7:27.82 Marc Basseng
5. Porsche Carrera GT 7:32 Sport Auto
6. Porsche 997 GT2 7:32.18 Walter Röhrl (autobild)
7. Pagani Zonda F 7:33 Sport Auto
8. Koenigsegg CCR 7:34 Sport Auto
9. Mercedes SLR 722 GT Mclaren 7:38.00
10. Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 7:40 AutoBild sportscars 01/07 By company test driver Giorgio Sanna
11. Mercedes SLR McLaren 7:40 Klaus Ludwig
12. Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 7:40min Giorgio Sanna
13. Porsche 997 GT3 7:42 Walter Röhrl
14. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 7:42.9 Jan Magnussen
15. Porsche 996 GT3 RS 7:43 "Motor" magazine
16. Pagani Zonda C12 S 7:44 Sport Auto
17. Aston Martin V8 Vantage N24 7:45
18. Porsche 996 GT2 7:46 Sport Auto
19. Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera 7:46 Auto (Italy)
20. Jaguar XJ 220 7:46 John Neilsen
21. Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano 7:47 Sport Auto
22. Porsche 997 GT3 RS 7:48 Sport Auto
23. Porsche 997 Turbo 7:49.0 Walter Rohrl using Michelin Pilot Sport Cups
24. Lamborghini Murcielago 7:50 Sport Auto
25. BMW M3 CSL (E46) 7:50 Sport Auto
26. Nissan GT-R 7:50min sportauto Horst von Saurma
27. Lamborghini Gallardo 7:52 Sport Auto
28. Mercedes SLR McLaren 7:52 Sport Auto
29. Ford GT 7:52 Sport Auto
30. Mercedes CLK DTM 7:54 Sport Auto
31. Porsche 996 GT3 7:54 Sport Auto
32. Ferrari F430 7:55 Sport Auto
33. Porsche 996 Turbo 7:56 Sport Auto
34. Ferrari 360 CS 7:56 sport auto 02/2004
35. Chevrolet Corvette C5 Z06 7:56 John Heinricy
36. Audi RS4 7:58 Frank Stippler
37. Chevrolet Corvette C6 7:59 Motortrend
38. Porsche 997 Carrera S 7:59:00 Walter Roehrl, WHEELS 06/2004
39. Bugatti EB 110 SuperSport 8:01
40. Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder 8:01.84 Wolfgang Kaufmann
41. Mercedes CLK 63 Black Series 8:02 autobild 07/07
42. Aston Martin V8 Vantage 8:03 Sport Auto
43. Porsche 911 GT3 8:03 Sport Auto
44. Lamborghini Diablo GT 8:04 Sport Auto
45. Audi R8 8:04 Sport Auto
46. RUF CTR Yellow Bird 8:05
47. Ferrari 575 Maranello 8:05 Sport Auto
48. BMW M3 (E92) 8:05 Sport Auto
49. Mercedes SL 55 AMG 8:06
50. Ferrari 550 Maranello 8:07 Sport Auto
51. BMW M6 8:07.76 Sportauto
52. Ferrari 360 Modena 8:09 Sport Auto
53. Lamborghini Diablo 8:09 Sport Auto
54. Honda NSX-R 8:09 Sport Auto
55. Porsche 993 GT2 8:09.3 Sportauto
56. Donkervoort D8 180R 8:10 Sport Auto
57. Dodge Viper GTS 8:10 Sport Auto
58. Porsche 993 Turbo (3.6) 8:12 Sportauto
59. Mercedes SL 55 AMG 8:12 Sport Auto
60. Mercedes SL65 AMG 8:12:90
61. Lotus Esprit Sport 350 8:13 Sport Auto
62. Aston Martin V8 Vantage 8:13 sport auto 10/2005
63. Dodge Viper SRT-10 8:13 Sport Auto
64. BMW M5 8:13 Sport Auto
65. Ferrari F355 8:13
66. Mercedes SL65 AMG 8:14 Sport Auto
67. Mercedes SLK 55 AMG Black Series 8:14 Sport Auto
68. BMW Z4 M Roadster 8:15 "Sport Auto"
69. Porsche 997 Carrera 8:15 Walter Röhrl
70. Aston Martin DB9 8:16 Sport Auto
71. BMW M6 Cabrio 8:16,52 Wolfgang Kaufmann
72. Honda NSX 3.2 8:16.15 Best Motoring
73. Porsche 911 Carrera 8:17 Sport Auto
74. Porsche 996 Carrera 8:17 Sport Auto
75. Aston Martin V12 Vanquish 8:17 Sport Auto
76. BMW Z8 8:18 "Sport Auto"
77. Chevrolet Corvette C5 Commemorative Edition Targa 8:18 Sportauto
78. Ferrari F355 8:18 Sport Auto
79. Maserati Coupe GranSport 8:18 Sport Auto
80. Porsche 987 Boxster S (276bhp) 8:18.00 Walter Rohl
81. Audi RS6 8:20
82. BMW M3 (E36) 8:20 "Autocar Magazine"
83. BMW M3 (E46) 8:22 "Sport Auto"
84. Mercedes C 55 AMG 8:22 Sport Auto
85. BMW Z3 M Coupe 8:22.0 sportauto
86. Chevrolet Cobalt SS/TC 8:22.85
87. Porsche 986 Boxster S (262bhp) 8:23 Sport Auto
88. Aston Martin DB7 GT 8:23 Sport Auto
89. Porsche 996 Carrera 4 8:23 Sport Auto
90. Mercedes SLK 55 AMG 8:24 Sport Auto
91. Subaru Impreza WRX STi 8:24 Sport Auto
92. Mitsubishi Evo VII 8:25 Sportauto
93. Audi RS4 Avant (B5) 8:25 Sportauto
94. Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VI 8:25 Sportauto
95. Callaway C12 8:25 Sport Auto
96. Jaguar XKR 8:25 Sport Auto
97. Porsche Cayman S 8:25 Sport Auto
98. Mercedes SLK 32 AMG 8:26 Sport Auto
99. Nissan 350Z (283bhp) 8:26 Sport Auto
100. BMW 335i Coupe 8:26 Sport Auto
101. BMW M5 (E39) 8:28 Sport Auto
102. Porsche 993 Carrera 8:28 Sport Auto
103. Porsche 993 Carrera Cabrio 8:28 Sport Auto
104. Nissan Skyline R32 GT-R 8:28.21 Hiroyoshi Katoh
105. Mercedes CLK 55 AMG 8:29 Sport Auto
106. Audi S4 (B6) Avant 8:29 sportauto
107. Maserati Coupe Cambiocorsa 8:30 Sport Auto
108. Cadillac STS-V 8:31 AutoWeek
109. BMW Z4 3.0si Coupe 8:32 Sportauto
110. BMW Z4 3.0i 8:32 Sport Auto
111. BMW Z3 M Roadster 8:32 Sport Auto
112. Lotus Exige 8:32 Sport Auto
113. Porsche 986 Boxster S (248bhp) 8:32 Sport Auto
114. BMW Z4 3.0i 8:32.0 Sportauto
115. Vauxhall VX220 8:34 "Sport Auto"
116. BMW Z3 Coupe 3.0i 8:34 Sport Auto
117. Opel Speedster Turbo 8:34min Sportauto
118. BMW 130i 8:35 "Road & Track"
119. BMW M3 (E36) 8:35 Sport Auto
120. Ford Focus ST 8:35.00 Patrick Bernhard
121. Opel Astra OPC '05 8:35.93 Manuel Reuter
122. Porsche 986 Boxster (225bhp) 8:36 Sport Auto
123. Jaguar XKR 8:36 Sport Auto
124. Subaru Impreza GT Turbo 8:37 Sport Auto
125. Maserati 3200 GT 8:37 Sport Auto
126. Mercedes C 32 AMG 8:37 Sport Auto
127. VW Golf R32 8:37 Sport Auto
128. Honda NSX 3.0 (1991) 8:37.28 Sportauto
129. Mercedes SL 500 8:38 Sport Auto
130. Honda NSX 3.2 8:38.00 Sportauto
131. Renault Megane Sport Trophy 8:38:0 Sportauto
132. Mazda 3 MPS 8:39 Owen Mildenhall
133. Honda S2000 8:39 Sport Auto
134. Morgan Aero 8 8:39
135. Audi TT 2.0 TFSI 8:40 Sport Auto
136. Chevrolet Corvette C5 automatic 8:40 Sportauto
137. Bentley Continental GT 8:40.3
138. Aston Martin DB7 Vantage 8:41 Sport Auto
139. Audi S3 8:41 Sport Auto
140. Audi S4 8:42 Sport Auto
141. Audi TT Coupe quattro (Mk I) 8:42 Sportauto
142. Lotus Exige MK1 8:42 Sport Auto
143. BMW M5 (E39) 8:42:635 Martin Christensen
144. Honda Integra Type R (DC2) 8:43 Sportauto
145. Honda Civic Type-R 8:47 Sport Auto
146. Opel Corsa OPC 8:47.99 Manuel Reuter
147. VW Golf R32 8:49 Sport Auto
148. Jaguar XKR 8:49 Sport Auto
149. Renault Clio V6 Mk I 8:49 Sportauto
150. Mercedes E 55 AMG 8:50 sport auto
151. Alfa Romeo 156 GTA 8:51 Sport Auto
152. Mercedes C 43 AMG 8:51 Sport Auto
153. Mercedes CLK 430 8:52 Sport Auto
154. VW Golf GTI 8:53 Sport Auto
155. VW Golf IV GTI 8:54 Sport Auto
156. Porsche 986 Boxster (201bhp) 8:54 Sport Auto
157. Mini Cooper S Works 8:55 Sport Auto
158. VW Golf V6 4Motion 9:09 Sport Auto
159. VW Corrado VR6 9:24 autobild
160. Opel Calibra 4x4 9:25 autobild
161. Mazda MX 6 9:29 autobild
162. Toyota MR2 9:30 autobild
163. Mini Cooper S 9:31 Marco 2002
164. Nissan 200SX 9:35 autobild
165. VW Polo GTI 9:46,20 Wolfgang Kaufmann
166. Mitsubishi Eclipse 9:55 autobild
167. Mazda 626 (1999) 9:58.776 Meeting Mazda

tar6day

Those are 2007 lap times. Interesting to see how the RWD cars compare to the AWD. Specially how the the 993 GT2 compares to the 993 TT, 997 GT2 vs 997 TT, 996 GT2 vs 996 TT.

WHB Porsche

My world may have just been crushed by the fact that a 997S beat a 993GT2 by 10 seconds! I wonder what the GT2 could do in Walter Rohrl's hands.

pstoppani

One could easily argue that the GT2 has the advantage in both it's suspension and power to weight ratio... Not exactly a apples to apples comparison.

Let's compare a 993TT with and without AWD, same suspension, same tires and same driver. Let the AWD version have the weight penality; then see what happens. Until you see that comparison, all these other comparisons are a waste of time.

goatfarmer1970

I am the new guy with no credibility on the board, but I agree with the above post that the GT2 cars are 2WD because of rules put forth by the racing sanctioning bodies. If you go back and look at the late 80s success of Audi in Trans Am (despite being underpowered, suffering weight penalties and running narrower tires) I think that it can be said that AWD clearly allows for a faster line. A more fun line, who knows, but faster, yes! I personally love the 993TT because of the fact that it has AWD, which was considered an unfair advantage in racing...that's exactly what I want in my daily driver, an unfair advantage. Having said that, I still want it to engage the driver, etc., and no car delivers that balance better than a 993TT IMHO.

tar6day

Isn't the agreement that AWD is better than RWD? Wouldn't the hp and suspension advantage of a GT2 be negated by the superior "traction/weight bias" of the TT AWD. I'm no professional driver but my lap times are 3-4 seconds faster in same hp + suspension 993TT when I went from AWD to RWD. It would be nice to see lap times from individuals that did this type of conversion and not from guys who just theorize on the topic.

Wilder

Interesting topic. I bought a highly modified C4S on a whim thinking the AWD would give me an unfair advantage over RWD 993s. After speaking with numerous race shops and club racers, I now debate whether the AWD does in fact provide an advantage. I bought the car recently and haven't had a chance to run it but one concern I have is that the VC AWD system used in our 993s is not designed for track and doesn't have the same characteristics of the system that Audi used to its advantage before it was banned. In fact, I wonder if the VC system is robust enough for cars that see lots of track time. From the few guys that I spoke with that club race C4s, the consensus seems to be that they're fairly competitive with C2s, having a disadvantage on the straights due to weight and an advantage on turns being able to apex earlier and exit quicker. Just a couple of cents worth of NA opinion.

Stummel

tires improved a lot last 10 yrs