AndyGlaister

There are a lot of people charging $2,500 -> $3,500 to simply put a copied image from a "Turbo S" or a "GT2" into a stock 993TT.

I could understand the price in 1996 when some people had to work hard to reverse engineer what Porsche had done, but these days I wonder how many people are still paying these outrageous prices for software that has been simply copied from a more powerful stock Porsche? Once Porsche released these more powerful cars it must have been a very simple job to compare the values and curves and pretty much program what you would like - not very hard at all.

A lot of people also seem to be recommending buying a new 97 ECU for $1,500 if you have a 96 - for 30mins worth of desoldering? - Wow, what a great job!

Is there anyone on the West Coast who has a four wheel dyno and can really program a chip specifically for your car and it's modifications? - or are most tuners just people with hard drives full of images copied from various places?

Kevin

Andy when you find the eeprom chip for the 96, I have a spare Ecu, that you can convert for me.

Rick in Portland

Andy,

The 1996 and 1997 ECUs are different. The 1996 ECU has two programmable chips that need to be replaced, and they are not available. This is why you have to go with a '97 ECU that has a single programmable chip that’s available.

There may be vendors that simply copy a map profile from Porsche, but I know for a fact others (like Steve) who develop different and unique maps to generate a specific power profiles, and to deal with such things as the lousy gas in California.

This falls under "Intellectual Property". Someone has to pay for it.

Rick
<a href="http://www.993tt.com" target="_blank">www.993tt.com</a>

AndyGlaister

Back in my Eagle Talon days I contributed to this effort:

<a href="http://www.tmo.com/prod/eprom/stages.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.tmo.com/prod/eprom/stages.shtml</a>

Which added a lot of functionality to the standard cars computer - this was because it was completely disassembled, rewritten and features added. I am sure -some- of the chip vendors work very hard and do their jobs well. I just think a lot of people are making money selling 'Turbo S' ecu's maps to people. I have never seen anyone add aditional functionality like this with any Porsche chips.

I agree its IP, and I have no problem paying the person who really worked hard to do something unique. I find it hard to believe all the '430hp' chips you can buy for our cars are different, unique and have been individually researched and developed and are not just stock 424hp maps. I would really like to know if there is a dealer who really can customize an ECU – then I would feel much happier paying for it.

Just because some dealer has a 430hp map on his hard drive does not means he owns the IP- if it’s the Porsche map, or a copy of some other tuners map, its more like software piracy.

Bill P.

I imagine this has been kicked around the board in the past but I'd like to know more about what is available and effective. Especially if in improves performance and is Ca. specific!

Perhaps Steve Weiner (Rennsport Systems) will chip (ahem) in.

Bill

JasonAndreas

[quote]Originally posted by AndyGlaister:
<strong>Just because some dealer has a 430hp map on his hard drive does not means he owns the IP- if it’s the Porsche map, or a copy of some other tuners map, its more like software piracy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If the maps/eproms/flash eeprom for the 993 are anything like those sold for the 964 by tuners than that is also likely piracy. I'd be really surprised if someone had permission from Bosch to resell their code or if they actually went out and purchased an eprom (from bosch/porsche) for each one they sold. As far as I knew you can't copyright a table/array of numbers only the code contained within. Every chip for the 964 I've looked at has the (c)19xx/200x by such and such tuners yet I can't imagine bosch signing over the copyright of their software to someone else (modifying a few numbers doesn't change the copyright, nor does adding 20 lines of code.) FLASHING the eeprom is a different
story.

Rick in Portland

Andy,

You said "I have never seen anyone add aditional functionality like this with any Porsche chips."

Give Steve Weiner at Rennsport Systems a call. He indeed creates special mapping for Porsches and will give you quite an education on this subject.

Rick
<a href="http://www.993tt.com" target="_blank">www.993tt.com</a>

Bill P.

Doing a little more poking around here I see that, as an example, Rennsport Systems offers a reprogramed chip which is designed w/west coast gas in mind and adds around 18 HP. The cost is $995. I wonder if there are other advantages to this chip besides the HP gain?

Bill

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Hi:

Great thread,...

For anyone with experience in programming and making automotive software, they know how incredibly difficult it is to write or rewrite (alter) the code for any OBDII car. If you don't have that experience, then you really have no idea about what this truly involves.

All manufacturers use proprietary code to write their software and chip tuners follow the same lead. Learning where and how to make any changes and learning what actually works (and doesn't), is a VERY time-consuming and expensive process requiring hundreds of dyno hours and some expensive tools to do that.

While I cannot speak for anyone else in this arena, we have devoted considerable resources to doing such things, and 28+ years of racing and tuning 911's provides a foundation for knowing what to do and what's worthwhile. I do consider the fruits of those efforts over that time intellectual property, and not something to post freely like some open-source code,... After all, it took a $ 100+K investment in dynomometers and tools, not mention considerable man-hours to be able to adjust, measure, and quantify the results of those changes.

Turbocharged 993's have many many things that can be changed depending upon fuel grades, engine hardware, expected longevity, and of course, power output.

For Bill P:.....Indeed, we do have several maps with differing parameters for the variations in regional octane grades, rev limits for upgrades internals, race gas, and other modifications that people do to these cars.

For Andy G:.....I understand very clearly what you are saying. Again, I'll not speak for anyone else, but if you believe that all chip tuners are ripping people off, then I would respectfully invite you to jump in here and program these OBDII cars yourself so that they do not suffer premature engine failures and actually improve what the Factory started with......

Like many things in this world of ours: If it were easy, then anyone could do it.

Bill P.

[quote]Originally posted by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems:
[QB
For Bill P:.....Indeed, we do have several maps with differing parameters for the variations in regional octane grades, rev limits for upgrades internals, race gas, and other modifications that people do to these cars.

Like many things in this world of ours: If it were easy, then anyone could do it.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

Well said, Steve. I completely agree.

Using my car as an example….it’s stock and I use 91-octane fuel. What do I gain in addition to the HP if anything? E.g. better fuel management, power curve, etc. Also, is this the best bang for the buck on a stock car? Is there a better alternative $/per hp by adding, as an example, 50hp? Thoughts?

Thanks, <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Bill

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

[quote]Originally posted by Bill P.:
<strong>

Well said, Steve. I completely agree.

Using my car as an example….it’s stock and I use 91-octane fuel. What do I gain in addition to the HP if anything? E.g. better fuel management, power curve, etc. Also, is this the best bang for the buck on a stock car? Is there a better alternative $/per hp by adding, as an example, 50hp? Thoughts?

Bill</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Bill: (new,revised version)

LOL,..Sometimes brute honesty is not what people necessarily wish to hear however, I cannot alter reality or the truth,...

I would frame whatever modifications that you do to a street-driven 993 by saying that anything you do must be OBDII-compliant and smog-legal. Inside that arena, things can get very expensive in a hurry. I always advise that a good chip is the first and most cost-effective thing one can do for more power and improved throttle response. Even given the limitations of California gasoline, you will still see torque & power gains of 30+ HP for the Turbo "S" upgrade.
As the boost & timing curves are altered, the engine feels much stronger than those numbers belie,..

The Street GT-2 upgrade (480HP) is significantly stronger but does have a bit of lag, due to the larger turbochargers.

Here's a performance regimen of what I advise 993 TT owners to follow:

1) Properly programmed Chip; Turbo "S" or GT-2

2) Additional left-side front oil cooler

3) Larger Intercooler

4) K-24 Turbo's (there are several variations)

5) Low restriction mufflers

6) 5 bar Fuel Pressure Regulator (for GT-2 upgrade only)

Longevity and durability is preserved by maintaining stock-type oil and charge-air temperatures and to this end, the additional cooling measures listed above is HIGHLY recommended.

One more thing,....while I cannot legally suggest anything here, I do know that cat-bypass pipes significantly reduce boost lag and the people who have installed them are very pleased with the results.

Beyond these upgrades, things like camshafts, headwork also help make more power, albeit at higher RPM. Everything listed above will not affect smog compliance and will not trigger "Check engine" lights.

Hope this helps, and my apologies for the previous irrelevant post.

PramTT

Steve:

FYI, Bill P's car is a 993TT.

AndyGlaister

I got confused as well because Bill talked about a $995 chip for his car - which is the price for a non-turbo chip. I assume the ECM in a turbo and non-turbo are identical? But the turbo chip (flashing) prices are $2,500 on Rennsports web site.

GREEK-TURBO-RACER

I want to jump in here. I could not agree more with Steve (rennsport). The time to R&D programms, dyno tuning, etc...... takes lots of time and $$$$$. I know. I see what our guys go through here and in Germany. Dyno testing, track testing, back to the dyno, return to the track..... it doesn't stop.

We also have to cater to certain race teams with their special "requests" within the rules of Grand Amand other series. Nug nug, wink, wink.

Yeah Steve, it ain't as simple as people think.
I hate cliches, but " you get what you pay for " and " if you want to play you gotta pay " sayings always carry a lot of truth I have learned.

Theo

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

[quote]Originally posted by PramTT:
<strong>Steve:

FYI, Bill P's car is a 993TT.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hi Pram:

Thanks for the clarification!....I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who got a little bit confused,...

In light of that important "discovery" please disregard my recommendations above as quite obviously, they do not apply in this case.

I will revise the list, forthwith.