Need advice on engine upgrades
04-07-2003 | 09:17 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 243
Likes: 10
Need advice on engine upgrades
Hi guys,
I'm planning to install a pair of K-16 Hybrid turbos on my tt (The old ones are smoking and thought what the heck might as well upgrade!) and need advice and input from some of you gurus and those who have done this out there.
My current setup: 430Hp with a factory fitted Turbo S upgrade (c/w ECU and supplementary oil cooler)
Questions?
I am targetting a possible 480Hp. I have read reports that I would need a 5 bar FPR. Is this necessary?
Would the ECU need to be remapped to handle the additional fuel pressure?
Could I do with just an upgraded ECU without the FPR?
Any of you out there just happen to have s 'slightly' used RUF, Gemballa etc. ECU lying around you want to unload <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ?
Some of the questions are pretty obvious
I know and have been posted before in the archives but I'm trying to get a clear picture here as I don't want to risk blowing my engine. Would really appreciate all advice and info any of you can post here.... 
cheers,
Kris
'97 993TT
'89 964 C4
I'm planning to install a pair of K-16 Hybrid turbos on my tt (The old ones are smoking and thought what the heck might as well upgrade!) and need advice and input from some of you gurus and those who have done this out there.
My current setup: 430Hp with a factory fitted Turbo S upgrade (c/w ECU and supplementary oil cooler)
Questions?
I am targetting a possible 480Hp. I have read reports that I would need a 5 bar FPR. Is this necessary?
Would the ECU need to be remapped to handle the additional fuel pressure?
Could I do with just an upgraded ECU without the FPR?
Any of you out there just happen to have s 'slightly' used RUF, Gemballa etc. ECU lying around you want to unload <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ?
Some of the questions are pretty obvious
I know and have been posted before in the archives but I'm trying to get a clear picture here as I don't want to risk blowing my engine. Would really appreciate all advice and info any of you can post here.... cheers,
Kris
'97 993TT
'89 964 C4
04-07-2003 | 09:36 PM
#2
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,300
Likes: 1
From: Nor Cal
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by krish:
<strong>The old ones are smoking and thought what the heck might as well upgrade!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hi Kish.. If you haven't looked at this site already, check it out. Lots of good background tuning information for TT's: <a href="http://www.993tt.com" target="_blank">http://www.993tt.com</a>
As far as your smoking turbo, it may not be bad. What are your symptoms? Is it just smoking on the left exhaust pipe?
<strong>The old ones are smoking and thought what the heck might as well upgrade!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hi Kish.. If you haven't looked at this site already, check it out. Lots of good background tuning information for TT's: <a href="http://www.993tt.com" target="_blank">http://www.993tt.com</a>
As far as your smoking turbo, it may not be bad. What are your symptoms? Is it just smoking on the left exhaust pipe?
04-07-2003 | 10:10 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 243
Likes: 10
Hi Jeff,
Give the man a cigar!!! <img border="0" alt="[king]" title="" src="graemlins/r.gif" /> You're not descended from Sherlock Holmes are you? Some thing in the text of my letter, the style used, that clued you in to my, YES, left smoking tail pipe? Why is it doing this Jeff if it's not the turbo?
I might still go ahead with the upgrade (would still appreciate info on the cause of the smoking though) as I'm getting used to the power levels of the tt. Yes, I have checked out the 993tt.com site. Great site with lots of info. But I'm trying to learn as much as I can before taking the plunge.
cheers,
Kris
'97 993tt
'89 964 C4
Give the man a cigar!!! <img border="0" alt="[king]" title="" src="graemlins/r.gif" /> You're not descended from Sherlock Holmes are you? Some thing in the text of my letter, the style used, that clued you in to my, YES, left smoking tail pipe? Why is it doing this Jeff if it's not the turbo?
I might still go ahead with the upgrade (would still appreciate info on the cause of the smoking though) as I'm getting used to the power levels of the tt. Yes, I have checked out the 993tt.com site. Great site with lots of info. But I'm trying to learn as much as I can before taking the plunge.
cheers,
Kris
'97 993tt
'89 964 C4
04-07-2003 | 10:17 PM
#4
Former Vendor
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 6,849
Likes: 0
From: Tampa
Krish,
I went with the Unichip setup instead of a remapped ECU as I plan more upgrades in the future and wanted quick remapping to suit my individual car. Personal preference. Anyway, the problem I ran into with my car going to larger turbos and an adjustable fuel regulator was that under boost I was not getting enough fuel (dangerous), and for regular driving I was getting too much fuel (this could also effect your emissions test). To fix this, I had 2 additional injectors installed that are fired by the Unichip (this is a real plus of this system) only under boost conditions. I still needed the FPR, but did not have to puch it to the max all the time. Everything works great and with a cat bypass I am getting over 500HP. So you goal should be achievable....
good luck
I went with the Unichip setup instead of a remapped ECU as I plan more upgrades in the future and wanted quick remapping to suit my individual car. Personal preference. Anyway, the problem I ran into with my car going to larger turbos and an adjustable fuel regulator was that under boost I was not getting enough fuel (dangerous), and for regular driving I was getting too much fuel (this could also effect your emissions test). To fix this, I had 2 additional injectors installed that are fired by the Unichip (this is a real plus of this system) only under boost conditions. I still needed the FPR, but did not have to puch it to the max all the time. Everything works great and with a cat bypass I am getting over 500HP. So you goal should be achievable....
good luck
04-07-2003 | 11:09 PM
#5
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,300
Likes: 1
From: Nor Cal
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by krish:
<strong>Give the man a cigar!!! <img border="0" alt="[king]" title="" src="graemlins/r.gif" /> You're not descended from Sherlock Holmes are you? Some thing in the text of my letter, the style used, that clued you in to my, YES, left smoking tail pipe? Why is it doing this Jeff if it's not the turbo?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Kish, about 5-10 other TT owners have had this problem and it was NOT the turbo ( Even though a few of us have had our turbo replaced ).
The short story is that you probably had your oil changed recently and the mechanic didn't tighten the engine oil filter ( the small one ) enough.
There is a check valve in the small filter and it's very sensitive to how tight it is. If you follow the recommeneded procedure in the shop manual ( hand tighten and then 1/2 more with a wrench ), you'll be ok.
Of course, there's tons of info in the archives. Search for "smoking turbo" in this forumn and the 993 forumn and you'll see my whole saga.
So what should you do? First, I recommend replacing the engine oil filter only ( be sure you get the "03" version).
You can do another oil change if you want, but it doesn't matter. Just make sure that you tighten the small oil filter properly. While you under there, drain the turbo intake hoses and clean out the intercooler for extra oil. If you don't drain those, you'll get residual smoking.
After you've changed the oil filter, spend part of the money you've saved on a rennlist membership. It'll be the best $18/year you spend, hands down.
As far as upgrades, personally, I'd do suspension first over HP. I think that you'll have more opportunity to enjoy it over raw power. Then spend the rest of your money on HPDE's and driving schools.
Our cars already have plenty of power, just learning how to use the standard capabilities of the car is more than enough for me!
Feel free to email me or ask me more questions on the turbo issue if it wasn't clear in the archives.
<strong>Give the man a cigar!!! <img border="0" alt="[king]" title="" src="graemlins/r.gif" /> You're not descended from Sherlock Holmes are you? Some thing in the text of my letter, the style used, that clued you in to my, YES, left smoking tail pipe? Why is it doing this Jeff if it's not the turbo?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Kish, about 5-10 other TT owners have had this problem and it was NOT the turbo ( Even though a few of us have had our turbo replaced ).
The short story is that you probably had your oil changed recently and the mechanic didn't tighten the engine oil filter ( the small one ) enough.
There is a check valve in the small filter and it's very sensitive to how tight it is. If you follow the recommeneded procedure in the shop manual ( hand tighten and then 1/2 more with a wrench ), you'll be ok.
Of course, there's tons of info in the archives.
Search for "smoking turbo" in this forumn and the 993 forumn and you'll see my whole saga. So what should you do? First, I recommend replacing the engine oil filter only ( be sure you get the "03" version).
You can do another oil change if you want, but it doesn't matter. Just make sure that you tighten the small oil filter properly. While you under there, drain the turbo intake hoses and clean out the intercooler for extra oil. If you don't drain those, you'll get residual smoking.
After you've changed the oil filter, spend part of the money you've saved on a rennlist membership. It'll be the best $18/year you spend, hands down.
As far as upgrades, personally, I'd do suspension first over HP. I think that you'll have more opportunity to enjoy it over raw power. Then spend the rest of your money on HPDE's and driving schools.
Our cars already have plenty of power, just learning how to use the standard capabilities of the car is more than enough for me!
Feel free to email me or ask me more questions on the turbo issue if it wasn't clear in the archives.
04-07-2003 | 11:44 PM
#6
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 243
Likes: 10
Hi guys,
Bob, thanks for the reply. Your well documented and posted upgrade is one of the reasons for my quest for more power <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> ! I have actually printed it out as a source of reference! The Unichip is tempting, but I'm trying to go for the least complex solution here and am hoping for just an ECU swap and turbo upgrade (wishful thinking??)
Jeff, thanks for the oil filter tip (and the clearing out of residual oil from the intercoolers)! Will get round to it this weekend and hope it solves the smoking. The quest for more power will still go on however!
On membership, I have tried for the past three months to get a two year year subscription online but so far without success. Message I keep getting is that it's currently unavailable. Is this (online subscription) open to US residents only?
On suspension, first thing (two months ago)I did was fit in a set of PSS-9s' from GERT @ Carnewal. Car's still a little sloppy at the rear so I'm ordering a set of custom rear spring perches from Steve@Rennsport!
Do know about HPDE, in fact I give them over here these days (in between competing in local events when my time allows it)! Did do a stint at skip barber years ago.... <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
cheers,
kris
'97 993tt
'89 964 C4
Bob, thanks for the reply. Your well documented and posted upgrade is one of the reasons for my quest for more power <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> ! I have actually printed it out as a source of reference! The Unichip is tempting, but I'm trying to go for the least complex solution here and am hoping for just an ECU swap and turbo upgrade (wishful thinking??)
Jeff, thanks for the oil filter tip (and the clearing out of residual oil from the intercoolers)! Will get round to it this weekend and hope it solves the smoking. The quest for more power will still go on however!
On membership, I have tried for the past three months to get a two year year subscription online but so far without success. Message I keep getting is that it's currently unavailable. Is this (online subscription) open to US residents only?
On suspension, first thing (two months ago)I did was fit in a set of PSS-9s' from GERT @ Carnewal. Car's still a little sloppy at the rear so I'm ordering a set of custom rear spring perches from Steve@Rennsport!
Do know about HPDE, in fact I give them over here these days
(in between competing in local events when my time allows it)! Did do a stint at skip barber years ago.... <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> cheers,
kris
'97 993tt
'89 964 C4
04-07-2003 | 11:59 PM
#7
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,502
Likes: 19
From: North Dakota
Krish,
I'm not as experienced as a lot of the other guys here, but I've been debating the same changes that you are. I have a Gemballa ECU, which may be a bit more agressive than your S ECU. The general consensus is that I can add a hybrid turbo unit without changing the program. The bigger FPR is probably a good idea, and really isn't too expensive. Again... can be used with the existing ECU. If my turbos were smoking, I'd do it in a minute, after all I have over 52000 miles on the car. How long can those turbos last? But it is running so good right now (especially with a blend of 100 octane gas) that I hesitate to do anything right now.
I just added thr RS short shift kit and a set of aluminum pedals, courtesy of Schatz Motorsports. I also have a "real" boost gauge, but I don't yet have it plumbed up.
Post what you find out. I'd love to get these answers from multiple sources.
I'm not as experienced as a lot of the other guys here, but I've been debating the same changes that you are. I have a Gemballa ECU, which may be a bit more agressive than your S ECU. The general consensus is that I can add a hybrid turbo unit without changing the program. The bigger FPR is probably a good idea, and really isn't too expensive. Again... can be used with the existing ECU. If my turbos were smoking, I'd do it in a minute, after all I have over 52000 miles on the car. How long can those turbos last? But it is running so good right now (especially with a blend of 100 octane gas) that I hesitate to do anything right now.
I just added thr RS short shift kit and a set of aluminum pedals, courtesy of Schatz Motorsports. I also have a "real" boost gauge, but I don't yet have it plumbed up.
Post what you find out. I'd love to get these answers from multiple sources.
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04-08-2003 | 12:29 AM
#8
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,300
Likes: 1
From: Nor Cal
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ca993twin:
<strong>I just added thr RS short shift kit and a set of aluminum pedals, courtesy of Schatz Motorsports. I also have a "real" boost gauge, but I don't yet have it plumbed up.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">It's been a long wait for me too. I've been waiting for Steve to finish his short shift install so that I can buy a pre dimpled tunnel cover from Mike to install my short shifter kit too!
<strong>I just added thr RS short shift kit and a set of aluminum pedals, courtesy of Schatz Motorsports. I also have a "real" boost gauge, but I don't yet have it plumbed up.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">It's been a long wait for me too. I've been waiting for Steve to finish his short shift install so that I can buy a pre dimpled tunnel cover from Mike to install my short shifter kit too!
04-08-2003 | 12:47 AM
#9
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,502
Likes: 19
From: North Dakota
Jeff,
I love the RS short shift kit. And you are getting the finest tunnel cover possible. I took extra good care of it for you. Are you coming down for the install, or is he shipping it, and you're going to do it yourself?
I love the RS short shift kit. And you are getting the finest tunnel cover possible. I took extra good care of it for you. Are you coming down for the install, or is he shipping it, and you're going to do it yourself?
04-08-2003 | 03:46 AM
#10
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,510
Likes: 1
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by krish:
<strong>On membership, I have tried for the past three months to get a two year year subscription online but so far without success. Message I keep getting is that it's currently unavailable. Is this (online subscription) open to US residents only?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Nope membership is open to anyone from anywhere. I too had trouble with my subscription and even after applying online it took awhile for the invoice to sent me. Try applying online again and if need be send John D an email.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
<strong>On membership, I have tried for the past three months to get a two year year subscription online but so far without success. Message I keep getting is that it's currently unavailable. Is this (online subscription) open to US residents only?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Nope membership is open to anyone from anywhere. I too had trouble with my subscription and even after applying online it took awhile for the invoice to sent me. Try applying online again and if need be send John D an email.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
04-08-2003 | 04:52 AM
#11
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Rennlist
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,035
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From: Chevy Chase, MD
Guys, sorry to divert the thread a little, but tell me some more about this RS short shift kit. I have a short shift kit for C4/TT's from FVD in my TT. Is this the same? It improved the long throws somewhat, but not a whole lot. I certainly would like shorter, tighter throws. My all-time favorite short shift feel was the kit I installed in my former 944 Turbo. Although the effort to shift was a little higher, the slide bolt-like feel was great. I had abandoned hope of duplicating this in the TT, but maybe this RS option holds promise ...
04-08-2003 | 12:25 PM
#13
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,502
Likes: 19
From: North Dakota
I believe that FVD simply repackages the factory RS shifter kit. I'd estimate that the throws are about 30% shorter and more positive than the stock shifter. I think this is about as good as it gets for all that linkage that has to be moved. Not like a 944, or even my Cobra, which has a very short, very positive (and might I add, very inexpensive) shifter assembly.
04-08-2003 | 12:43 PM
#14
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,300
Likes: 1
From: Nor Cal
Steve, I'm glad to hear that you like it. I know it's not a great improvement, but it's a little improvement.
I'm going to ask Mike to ship the tunnel cover to me and I'm going to ship him mine. Should make for an interesting DIY.
I'm going to ask Mike to ship the tunnel cover to me and I'm going to ship him mine. Should make for an interesting DIY.