TB993tt

Came accross this link for an Andial engined 993tt.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...MakeTrack=true

For the first time to my knowledge this is the first time an Andial Power/torque curve have been available (outside those who have paid for the engines)

My first question is about the turbos they use, 993 123 014 80 and 993 123 013 80
My understanding is these are a K16/24 hybrid ? Can Kevin confirm what these are and how big is the compressor wheel ?

Andial use stock cats and according to the dyno sheets get massive power from these turbos.

When I tried Kevin's stage 3 K16 hybrids on a similar spec engine (but 3.6) the maximum which RS said they could extract would be 510hp and the torque would be under 700NM.

How on earth do Andial manage these huge numbers - race program 629hp/861NM street program 570hp/723NM - OK they are 3.8 but something doesn't seem to stack up

Can race gas really make such a massive difference ?

One thing of note is that the dyno curves stop at 6500rpm - is this how the engines perform, does the power drop off severely after 6500rpm ?

Is there any way one of the active board members with one of these kits can do a proper accelerometer run ?

The closing of Andial is bad news and I read somewhere that they said the internet has caused the business to decrease - this is particularly disturbing, the claims of 600hp for the 993tt plastered all over the net by the "bolt on boys" has really done its job here, leading people to think that Andial's 50K motors are expensive when in fact they are one of the few credible outfits in the US. Real shame

ca993twin

Which cams does Andial use? Does that factor into this apparent discrepency? I would be curious how this compares to the Ruf Turbo R cams... if anybody knows.

Kevin

Toby with your relationship with RS, in the recent past Andial was using FVD to supply the programming. Why would RS not give you the same package for a 3.8ltrs (if it existed) What were the corrections on that dyno sheet, SAE, DIN? What were the before and after results. They use the same turbochargers that I use with my Stage 1 kit. I have verified that with Peter years ago when he handed me one of the turbochargers.

TB993tt

I think the original packages (as shown on the 570/629hp dyno curves) were with a different ECU supplier, was it Theilert (SP) ? The RS/FVD Motronic is a recent thing and AFAIK has not been on the Andial dyno ?
The question about the turbos remains since they should be the limitation to maximum power. If they were using turbos like my K24/26 and big cats I would expect similar results to mine 540hp/740NM - but how are they getting those little K16s up there
If you look at the sheet, in the pics on Ebay, there are no corrections - it looks like the numbers have been put into a spreadsheet to produce the graph.

The invoices show the cams were RS 3.8 (like mine)

Kevin

From our own member JJay, he has given us his intercooler temps.. Yes, with the 3.8ltr build the GT1 turbochargers are building some good boost numbers really quick. However, with the larger displacement they will be running out of there efficiency range at 5800 at 1.2 bars. I have always wondered what this engine package would do against a Ruf package.. I don't know if the two cars have ever wnet against each other in print..

TB993tt

JJay talked often about slipping clutches so must have serious real ~800NM torque and will no doubt light up the tyres in 4th at peak torque - I am interested in what happens further up the rev band when the K16s should be throwing out super heated air. An AX22 run would show it nicely.

Rickard 993 Turbo

http://www.spezialmotorer.com/start/...ce/gt2_r_1.htm

Jean

Good points TB.

This car is a 3.6 Ltr version , and seems to me that the description is mistaken, as it says "24 DOHC" so unless they are using watercooled 4 valves per cylinder heads, they don't know what they are talking about.

I am very surprised to read from Kevin that Andial uses GT1 turbos on the 3.8 version as well, they are certainly too small and will generate a lot of heat quickly.

On the Thielert ECU, Andial had the flexibility to have several different maps with different timings, AFRs etc.. to use with race fuel, therefore the difference in output between the street and race version can be substantial, I would not discard a 60-100 HP increase quite easily between programs..hardware allowing of course.

On the new Motronic version , they have to use the same maps for both pump and race fuel unless they have an ECU switcher (I need one please!) therefore the output increase will be very limited, if any, between pump and race fuel unless they are compromising on street drivability.

Rickard, we have seen many times the fantastic work that Micke does in the last 2 years, but this is unrelated to this post Micke is using K27s and Secan intercooler as he mentioned to me.

Rickard 993 Turbo

Sorry

I was just giving an example of the same NM as TB was talking about

JJayB

I've just returned from a track day(s) with West Coast Racing formerly Pantera Club. A great group to run with as its fun to compare in the real world how our cars compare to other marques. This group daws a fair number of all out race cars including Ferarri Challenge 430's, new Speedvison Gt Z06 testing (2900 lbs, 550 hp) full race Pantera 2800 lbs, 723 hp Paul Pfaff motor injected, numerous Vipers, Vetts, supercharged Mustangs, Trans Ams, oh ya Carrera Gts. You get the picture a lot of high hp stuff.

The temp this morning was 42 deg. for our first run session and the Andail 3.8 must of thought it was in the fatherland. My intake temps were in the 60's and it was making great power. Since lap times are as much driving skill as car, I will say that there are many all out racecars that may have better lap times, but I can tell you my Andial car has never been passed on the front straight at Willow Springs and that includes the above mentioned cars and RUF Ctr2, Viper 650's, F50s, F40's.

Andial, builds torque motors. No need to rev over 6500 rpm. Andial believes that you need backpressure to make there setups work. That's why the hugh torque numbers. My old 3.6 twin plug dyno'd 800 nm torque. The 3.8 is more, a lot more. How does a 3200 lbs car with 620 hp out accelerate a 2800 lbs car with 723 hp. Easy, more torque and better gearing and keeping the engine in the power band.

Its sad to see this historic porsche shop closing, but without Dieter and Arnold its ownly a name. They want to retire and have turned down many offers to sell. Not many other shops have 162 trophys for cars and engines they have built for real racing.

JJayB

Porsche RS which will pass emissions in Calif.

Jean

JJayB
Sounds like you had a great day at the track! Any vids?

Andial is in no doubt one of the best outfits out there and it is really sad that they are closing.

We hear from experienced drivers like yourself how strong they are and I have been trying to set a bench to compare how my car is doing vs. an Andial 3.8TT since they were my first choice for a tuner back when I did my car.
This last week end was a humbling experience after looking at the Motec datalogs of the Franz Konrad team with the 997 Supercup and they were beating my top speed by 11Km/h at the end of the straight. Exit speed is certainly a factor since they are pro-racers but our turbo aircooled engines don't stand a chance even in straight line.

TB993tt

To Illustrate how I see the K16/24s performing I have attached the pic below which is an RS Tuning engine dyno sheet for a built 993tt motor with K16 hybrid turbos done in '97.

The early onset of boost gives a mighty 830NM of torque by 4500rpm which translates into 525hp at these revs - this will be a massive slug in the back - more than my motor manages.

You can see that by 5250rpm the turbos are struggling as the air is super heated, the Motronic then controls the power allowing it to rise again at 6000rpm before falling to the 7K limiter. It still has 500hp by 6500rpm.

My guess is that the car with this motor would feel ballistic to drive in the lower gears but by 5th would start to lose out when revved to the limit.

The Andial curves do not look like this, but this will be because of the particular engine dyno used - I have a good handle on how RS engine dyno sheets translate into on road performance and this would be a trye shredder

An accelerometer curve would be soooo useful

K24madness

Any idea if the GT2 evo cams will pass smog???

79hotrod

There is a pretty good article about the 3.8 on Andial.com under "cars of interest." I actually called there recently to ask about the conversion. They said they will still sell the parts but won't do the work anymore. In talking with him his words said they were shutting down, but his language made it seem like it wasn't the end of Andial. It will be interesting to see what/if anyhting happens.

I have a S ecu in my 96 but would like to scare another 100 hp with good torque out of my car without making a bomb of the motor. I already have a cargraphic oil cooler - but want to reprogram it add some some new turbos & 100 cell cats and whatever fuel pressure regulator and other odds and ends I need to get 520-540hp. While its mostly a track car - I want to be able maintain street legality. Who is best for a chip and turbos - what should I be prepared to spend??