Don't get run over by a 993TT !
02-16-2006, 09:10 AM
#1
Don't get run over by a 993TT !
Hi guys,
Some of you may have been following my 993TT purchasing efforts in California, which met with temporary failure. I felt I was almost "Run Over" by a 993TT currently advertised in the Rennlist Classifieds. I spent several thousand dollars to travel to, look at, and inspect his car that gushed oil and smoke, had bent suspension, bad gearbox and countless other issues. But the worst was the unease of dealing with a seller who in the face of the obvious insisted it was perfect and wouldn't even acknowledge the existance of any problems! To him it was in perfect condition and should sell for top retail.
Not one to be permanently discouraged, I am trying to learn more about them and hope to really know what I'm doing next time around. What I have so far gleened from this experience is that there are more cars for sale with issues than there are cream-puff garage queens. It would be far easier to seek out a high mileage driver than a low mileage close to mint ride. However, those selling high-mile cars with obvious issues seem to suffer from the delusion that their cars are worth as much as the rare extremely low-mile cars in exceptional condition, making for a very skewed market.
So I guess it is best to keep on looking at 993TTs for sale in a relaxed no-pressure mindset, and patiently wait until the right one in the right condition and at the right price is for sale in pleasant circumstances. To better inform the decision and avoid some of the pitfalls of used 993TT purchasing, I do have still have a couple of questions for those of you in the know.
While I understand that due to gravel roadrash some cars have had some paint work done, body work is an area in which I am not conviced that a Carfax report will always reveal what has been done. Repainted hoods (the outside of hood unless the hood has been changed) and front bumpers changed or repainted for the same reason are possibly commonplace. But this only makes it harder to detect if there has been deeper accident damage. So I plan on using a paint thickness gauge in the future to hopefully ascertain which body panels have been worked on, though I still won't know why.
Furthermore, I am concerned about two other issues which are still vague in my understanding. First, what should one think of 993TTs which have failed their emissions tests? This shows up invariably in Carfax reports which get the info from State inspection facilities. I have heard that some cars may need a full top end rebuild in order to pass emissions - that is unless emissions requirements for California are much tougher than in other States?
Also, I know that some 993s have needed to have their door straps changed/welded. My concern is about a 993TT that the seller says needed a front bumper repaint, but that it required also repainting both front fenders and the hood in order to ensure a proper color match?!? Does the following picture showing its right door reflecting light mean that this door will only need attention paid to its strap, or that this car may have been hit and not perfectly lined up afterward?
Thanks for your helpful advice. Some of these things may seem trivial, but buying a car at top market price that needs a ten thousand dollar rebuild isn't a fun prospect. Worse yet, buying a car that has been bent would keep me off of the used car market for the rest of my life.
In any case, I shall bide my time and will no longer rush off in a hurry to buy a car that looks like a winner on paper or in digital photos, as reality may not match up at all.
Best,
/Vic
Some of you may have been following my 993TT purchasing efforts in California, which met with temporary failure. I felt I was almost "Run Over" by a 993TT currently advertised in the Rennlist Classifieds. I spent several thousand dollars to travel to, look at, and inspect his car that gushed oil and smoke, had bent suspension, bad gearbox and countless other issues. But the worst was the unease of dealing with a seller who in the face of the obvious insisted it was perfect and wouldn't even acknowledge the existance of any problems! To him it was in perfect condition and should sell for top retail.
Not one to be permanently discouraged, I am trying to learn more about them and hope to really know what I'm doing next time around. What I have so far gleened from this experience is that there are more cars for sale with issues than there are cream-puff garage queens. It would be far easier to seek out a high mileage driver than a low mileage close to mint ride. However, those selling high-mile cars with obvious issues seem to suffer from the delusion that their cars are worth as much as the rare extremely low-mile cars in exceptional condition, making for a very skewed market.
So I guess it is best to keep on looking at 993TTs for sale in a relaxed no-pressure mindset, and patiently wait until the right one in the right condition and at the right price is for sale in pleasant circumstances. To better inform the decision and avoid some of the pitfalls of used 993TT purchasing, I do have still have a couple of questions for those of you in the know.
While I understand that due to gravel roadrash some cars have had some paint work done, body work is an area in which I am not conviced that a Carfax report will always reveal what has been done. Repainted hoods (the outside of hood unless the hood has been changed) and front bumpers changed or repainted for the same reason are possibly commonplace. But this only makes it harder to detect if there has been deeper accident damage. So I plan on using a paint thickness gauge in the future to hopefully ascertain which body panels have been worked on, though I still won't know why.
Furthermore, I am concerned about two other issues which are still vague in my understanding. First, what should one think of 993TTs which have failed their emissions tests? This shows up invariably in Carfax reports which get the info from State inspection facilities. I have heard that some cars may need a full top end rebuild in order to pass emissions - that is unless emissions requirements for California are much tougher than in other States?
Also, I know that some 993s have needed to have their door straps changed/welded. My concern is about a 993TT that the seller says needed a front bumper repaint, but that it required also repainting both front fenders and the hood in order to ensure a proper color match?!? Does the following picture showing its right door reflecting light mean that this door will only need attention paid to its strap, or that this car may have been hit and not perfectly lined up afterward?
Thanks for your helpful advice. Some of these things may seem trivial, but buying a car at top market price that needs a ten thousand dollar rebuild isn't a fun prospect. Worse yet, buying a car that has been bent would keep me off of the used car market for the rest of my life.
In any case, I shall bide my time and will no longer rush off in a hurry to buy a car that looks like a winner on paper or in digital photos, as reality may not match up at all.
Best,
/Vic
Last edited by Crownvic; 02-16-2006 at 09:33 AM.
02-16-2006, 11:10 AM
#2
Drifting
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lee's Summit, MO. & 6mmLake of the Ozarks
Posts: 2,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vic, its difficult to tell from that picture, however it does appear the lower portion of their door has a smaller gap than the top. Could be the angle of the image however. The paint looks ok. Someone in the know may correct me b/c I am not totally sure, but I think the 993 was built in a differing method that the 996, that is why less of the air coolers were built. Production methods could have something to do with what you seeing and not a accident of faulty check strap.
With respect to a front bumper re-paint, I think its dependent on whom does the painting that makes or breaks the look. A good shop can match up the fenders fine and only the front and/or hood will need it re-painting. Other factors will be , has the car been sitting outside w/o proper care by the owner. Obviously a car left out in Arizona will differ than one in a garage someplace else. If you find a car to your liking we some re-paint in those areas don't disregard if it meets your other criteria.
With respect to a front bumper re-paint, I think its dependent on whom does the painting that makes or breaks the look. A good shop can match up the fenders fine and only the front and/or hood will need it re-painting. Other factors will be , has the car been sitting outside w/o proper care by the owner. Obviously a car left out in Arizona will differ than one in a garage someplace else. If you find a car to your liking we some re-paint in those areas don't disregard if it meets your other criteria.
02-16-2006, 12:49 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA
Posts: 817
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Carfax is only going to show repaints if: 1) an insurance company paid for the work; and 2) they actually report that work was done.
Regarding the gap, not so sure. There are better signs of doorstrap probs (clicking). If you think the door alignment is off, close the door slowly. Does it hit the mechanism?
On the paint, you wouldn't have to repaint the hood unless there are chips. Matching is tough regardless. The cover is plastic vs the metal. Also, if one were worried about matching, then the front 1/4 panels would be painted as well.
I would consider asking someone local to look at the car before traveling distances. If you find a car in So Cal that you want looked at, send me a PM. I have looked at a lot. Regarding sitting back and waiting for the right one, that is the best way to go. I waited nearly two years for my TTS. I didn't get as A.D.D. as I usually do with my cars on this one. Best of luck.
Regarding the gap, not so sure. There are better signs of doorstrap probs (clicking). If you think the door alignment is off, close the door slowly. Does it hit the mechanism?
On the paint, you wouldn't have to repaint the hood unless there are chips. Matching is tough regardless. The cover is plastic vs the metal. Also, if one were worried about matching, then the front 1/4 panels would be painted as well.
I would consider asking someone local to look at the car before traveling distances. If you find a car in So Cal that you want looked at, send me a PM. I have looked at a lot. Regarding sitting back and waiting for the right one, that is the best way to go. I waited nearly two years for my TTS. I didn't get as A.D.D. as I usually do with my cars on this one. Best of luck.
02-16-2006, 01:11 PM
#4
Nordschleife Master
I'm not as convincinced that Carfax has any information on accidents unless there was a police report filed. I'm not sure that an insurance claim would also make it into the public records and hence into the Carfax data base. Carfax is still useful to point out serious defects or questions, but doesn't mean that a "clean Carfax" = a "clean car". You are obviously looking for a really high quality car... and it sounds like you really don't want to be bothered with a car with any sort of stories. This will reduce the field quite a bit (after 10 years, most of us have a story or two), but stick to what you want. Clearly you will pay more for the right car, but don't "settle" and regret it later.
As for me... I had a hard budget, and only could look at higher mileage cars. In the end, I made two great purchases, both Waldo and Rufus were terrific buys. Rufus is still not entirely "sorted", but for me, that's part of the fun. Just pointing out there are different strokes. Call me if I can eyeball any cars for you.
As for me... I had a hard budget, and only could look at higher mileage cars. In the end, I made two great purchases, both Waldo and Rufus were terrific buys. Rufus is still not entirely "sorted", but for me, that's part of the fun. Just pointing out there are different strokes. Call me if I can eyeball any cars for you.
02-16-2006, 02:32 PM
#5
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 2,124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CA emissions are very tough and a failure doesn't indicate expensive problems or even any problem at all. My car failed because the battery has been disconnected and the readiness codes hadn't reset yet. Private sellers have their egos involved in a sale and don't want to discuss what's wrong with their car. They already know what's wrong and that's probably why they are selling. Make your offer based on what is wrong and don't talk about it, even if they ask you to. Just say that is what the car is worth to you. Dealers are a different story, you can point out defects and discuss discounts for same all day long, it's just business to them. If they get huffy, it's just a sales technique. These cars are old enough that you are probably money ahead buying a higher mileage one for less and assume that you'll be spending money to get it just the way you want it. The suggestion to have a local Rennlister do a preliminary check is excellent. I wouldn't hesitate to drive 100 miles to help someone out, it's a good excuse to exercise the car. It would be good manners to buy dinner for the guy that helps you.
02-16-2006, 04:43 PM
#6
Thanks for your kind offers of checking out cars in Southern California. I'll let you know if one comes up. 
Obviously a great dinner on the town is a MUST.
That might be a good deal, buying a California car failing emissions for export to another State with less stringent tests. I don't mind higher miles, only the ones I have seen with reported low mileage sure looked like "too high mileage" and unlikely that it was reported truthfully. What I don't want is to have to mess with the interior during the first few years. I did see a 993 (not a TT) with 145,000 miles and a near perfect interior. Which makes me wonder how many miles the cars advertised as having only 40,000 miles really have when you see their interiors coming apart at the seams...
Regarding that mystery car, here's another shot of that door, showing a rubber joint wedged onto the opening edge of the door. It clunks closed fine, the same seller also had another 993 for sale with a similar rubber seal on its doors. Could this be to visually mask a poor fit or to muffle the odd closing clunk of a less than perfect replacement door - or is it just the seller's way of detailing out car? Possibly all 993TTs came new from the showroom with such wedges?
Mark, for an S version for sure I wouldn't mind waiting a year or two - especially if it comes in at close to my prices. But I won't start dreaming as I am already stretching the budget for a standard TT in stock form that won't be running me over as soon as I buy it.
Cheers,
/Vic
Obviously a great dinner on the town is a MUST.That might be a good deal, buying a California car failing emissions for export to another State with less stringent tests. I don't mind higher miles, only the ones I have seen with reported low mileage sure looked like "too high mileage" and unlikely that it was reported truthfully. What I don't want is to have to mess with the interior during the first few years. I did see a 993 (not a TT) with 145,000 miles and a near perfect interior. Which makes me wonder how many miles the cars advertised as having only 40,000 miles really have when you see their interiors coming apart at the seams...
Regarding that mystery car, here's another shot of that door, showing a rubber joint wedged onto the opening edge of the door. It clunks closed fine, the same seller also had another 993 for sale with a similar rubber seal on its doors. Could this be to visually mask a poor fit or to muffle the odd closing clunk of a less than perfect replacement door - or is it just the seller's way of detailing out car? Possibly all 993TTs came new from the showroom with such wedges?
Mark, for an S version for sure I wouldn't mind waiting a year or two - especially if it comes in at close to my prices. But I won't start dreaming as I am already stretching the budget for a standard TT in stock form that won't be running me over as soon as I buy it.
Cheers,
/Vic
02-16-2006, 04:54 PM
#7
Nordschleife Master
Vic,
That looks like a "Pep Boys" door protection strip that many people add to keep from beating up the car next to them, and to avoid the little chips on the edge that result. Probably not a big deal. Maybe the dealer adds them to all the cars on the lot to minimize door dings with careless folks.
That looks like a "Pep Boys" door protection strip that many people add to keep from beating up the car next to them, and to avoid the little chips on the edge that result. Probably not a big deal. Maybe the dealer adds them to all the cars on the lot to minimize door dings with careless folks.
Trending Topics
02-16-2006, 05:07 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA
Posts: 817
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ca993twin
Vic,
That looks like a "Pep Boys" door protection strip that many people add to keep from beating up the car next to them,...
That looks like a "Pep Boys" door protection strip that many people add to keep from beating up the car next to them,...
Joe Fab sells them. +5 HP. Aerodynamic enhancement.
02-16-2006, 05:36 PM
#9
Negotiating advice
Ok guys, I am now reassured that this is only to improve the parking lot aerodynamics. Ouf... sigh of relief.
Maybe you strong negotiators know how to bid for a car? The seller of this car is selling it on consignment. He says that he won't even listen to anyone offering one hundred dollars less than the advertised price. That it is the only price at which he will consider selling a car. Anyone else is just wasting his time and can walk, as far as he's concerned because HE knows the market.
I am sure that the private party who owns the vehicle would want to know about offers close to his asking price. How can I make sure the dealer contacts the owner and communicates my offer? Do I need to send a letter by registered mail with a deposit check contigent on accepting my offer and passing a PPI? Or is there a less pushy way of doing it when the salesman is playing tough poker?
Thanks for any advice,
/Vic
Maybe you strong negotiators know how to bid for a car? The seller of this car is selling it on consignment. He says that he won't even listen to anyone offering one hundred dollars less than the advertised price. That it is the only price at which he will consider selling a car. Anyone else is just wasting his time and can walk, as far as he's concerned because HE knows the market.
I am sure that the private party who owns the vehicle would want to know about offers close to his asking price. How can I make sure the dealer contacts the owner and communicates my offer? Do I need to send a letter by registered mail with a deposit check contigent on accepting my offer and passing a PPI? Or is there a less pushy way of doing it when the salesman is playing tough poker?
Thanks for any advice,
/Vic
02-17-2006, 04:57 PM
#12
Instructor
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having just spent about 5 months looking for a 993TT I can tell you it's a trying experience, but the end result is worth it.
Where is this 993TT on consignment? Is it the one at Dawydiak?
The smog failure is probably nothing. They should have records of it so you can see if it is just a readiness code or something else.
If the car isn't local, definitely post on Rennlist. You're sure to find someone who will check it out for you.
Personally I prefer to have a verbal agreement on price before I do the PPI. I always make it clear that I can back out if the PPI shows something or adjust the price.
I was burned once a few years ago when I was looking at a 993S. The owner had a very high asking price (far too high in my opinion), but I figured he would come down some in negotiation. I paid for the PPI first, and then found out he wouldn't budge at all on price.
Also, both ebay and PCA's mart have features where you can tell it what cars (models/years) you're interested in, and they'll email you whenever a new match is listed.
It's also worth your time to spread the word to friends and post what you're looking for on rennlist. After spending countless hours searching online, I ended up buying my car from a friend of a friend.
Where is this 993TT on consignment? Is it the one at Dawydiak?
The smog failure is probably nothing. They should have records of it so you can see if it is just a readiness code or something else.
If the car isn't local, definitely post on Rennlist. You're sure to find someone who will check it out for you.
Personally I prefer to have a verbal agreement on price before I do the PPI. I always make it clear that I can back out if the PPI shows something or adjust the price.
I was burned once a few years ago when I was looking at a 993S. The owner had a very high asking price (far too high in my opinion), but I figured he would come down some in negotiation. I paid for the PPI first, and then found out he wouldn't budge at all on price.
Also, both ebay and PCA's mart have features where you can tell it what cars (models/years) you're interested in, and they'll email you whenever a new match is listed.
It's also worth your time to spread the word to friends and post what you're looking for on rennlist. After spending countless hours searching online, I ended up buying my car from a friend of a friend.
02-20-2006, 11:43 PM
#13
Hi Rob,
I saw the one at Dawydiak on Franklin in San Francisco and the manager there took a lot of coaxing to even open the door and let me peek inside. He had decided apparently that I wasn't going to buy it. What killed it for me is that it has a blue interior, the one I like least and am trying to steer clear from. Also its interior condition didn't look like the mileage that was advertized. Not meaning to imply anything but I walked.
I will definitely get an agreement on price before the PPI as I already spent over $500 on one for nothing and don't plan on collecting useless inspection reports.
Thanks for your advice,
/Vic
I saw the one at Dawydiak on Franklin in San Francisco and the manager there took a lot of coaxing to even open the door and let me peek inside. He had decided apparently that I wasn't going to buy it. What killed it for me is that it has a blue interior, the one I like least and am trying to steer clear from. Also its interior condition didn't look like the mileage that was advertized. Not meaning to imply anything but I walked.
I will definitely get an agreement on price before the PPI as I already spent over $500 on one for nothing and don't plan on collecting useless inspection reports.
Thanks for your advice,
/Vic
02-21-2006, 02:39 AM
#14
Instructor
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crownvic,
Hi, I saw that car about two or three months ago there. The sales guy was very friendly and we walked the car together. While I like the Techquipment steering wheel, I would definitely spend some time reviewing the exterior of the car. I noticed that the calipers and maybe even the wheels around the hubs had been repainted. Also, as I recall the rear valance by the exhaust was either cracked or misaligned. All that can be fixed--more importantly is to see if they inform you of these things. I had to tell them what I observed and this be indicatvie of what they know if the car. As are most cars there, this one is on consignment.
Hi, I saw that car about two or three months ago there. The sales guy was very friendly and we walked the car together. While I like the Techquipment steering wheel, I would definitely spend some time reviewing the exterior of the car. I noticed that the calipers and maybe even the wheels around the hubs had been repainted. Also, as I recall the rear valance by the exhaust was either cracked or misaligned. All that can be fixed--more importantly is to see if they inform you of these things. I had to tell them what I observed and this be indicatvie of what they know if the car. As are most cars there, this one is on consignment.