How Much HP Before Intercooler Upgrade?
11-13-2005, 12:31 AM
#16
When ever you see recorded graphs like this showing very rough looking curves, its often showing up mapping irregulaities or other problem. I know many dynos increase the smoothness factor to show nice smooth curves, another fake issue, but big dips etc are not good.
I have seen in EFI engines, where the corrections done to the fueling are not very good. A good EFI system should control the fueling or A/F ratio within 0.1 of an A/F ratio. Sometimes the corrections done for Air Temp, Fuel Temp, Engine Temp, the Injector deadtime correction etc are not as good as they should be, and these show up in the Torque curves as dips etc.
It also is very common for these dips to be caused by Camshaft harmonics and the resulting issues these place upon the Valve Train.
Or it could be just the dyno, not recording very well.
I am not picking apart the dyno results, just that when the curves look like this, something is amiss. If the dyno is recording correctly, you should not have dips in the curve. The Torque should increase and then fall off, not as this one does. The engine cannot make more at a less RPM, then make less at a higher RPM, then make more again, unless something is off.
I have seen in EFI engines, where the corrections done to the fueling are not very good. A good EFI system should control the fueling or A/F ratio within 0.1 of an A/F ratio. Sometimes the corrections done for Air Temp, Fuel Temp, Engine Temp, the Injector deadtime correction etc are not as good as they should be, and these show up in the Torque curves as dips etc.
It also is very common for these dips to be caused by Camshaft harmonics and the resulting issues these place upon the Valve Train.
Or it could be just the dyno, not recording very well.
I am not picking apart the dyno results, just that when the curves look like this, something is amiss. If the dyno is recording correctly, you should not have dips in the curve. The Torque should increase and then fall off, not as this one does. The engine cannot make more at a less RPM, then make less at a higher RPM, then make more again, unless something is off.
11-13-2005, 10:33 AM
#17
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Originally Posted by JJayB
I think this question comes up every 2 years. For street use your fine. For extended track use over 20 minute sessions, and IMHO, 520 hp seems to be the threshhold where temps start to climb. I've have an intercooler temp gauge with an uprated intercooler. It works fine up to 600 hp on days were the ambient is 95 deg. F. With higher ambient temps, I dial back the boost a little. 100 octane only on track days. Glad to see you back Craig.
Agree with YO on the first bit, 520 is where most "higher" hp packages will end up.
If your intercooler temp guage is the Andial Davtron, I'm afraid it is pretty useless (unless mine is from a bad batch
) I compared the guage's interpretation of the temp and the readout from a hammer reading the actual air intake which the ECU sees and the Andial guage is way too slow and will not get up to the real intake temps you will be experiencing at high revs.m24racer
You are wrong on this - as most of the owners on here will attest, if you run a stock 993tt up through the rev range, the torque/power will dip at around 5200rpm then pick up again, it is the Motronic doing its thing and getting to a certain knock count, backing off then advancing/boosting again.
I once saw an engine dyno for a race GT2 EVO motor ~620 hp and it looked ridiculous with the power curve going up and down all the way to peak revs - the car which had this motor was a very successful racer.
11-13-2005, 11:55 AM
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ouch... I wasn't just trying to show a dyno run that's basically my config... people asked how much power can you make .. and when does the intercooler poop out..... I was only trying to help since everyone seems to agree the stock rig dies in the 500's or so maybe 600.... yes?
I really wanted to get some thoughts on the whole 'limitation issue' of the stock configuration....and ways around it....
And Kevin, FYI it was 91 octane at least on the first run........ can't vouch for number two.... there were 25 gallons of gas used on run-in and the testing ..
That was the engine previously in my car... it had 8/1 cr versus my static 8.8ish/1... I have .9 bar springs.. and make about the same HP and torque slightly lower in the Rev range....
I openly said I would like to see the air temps.... the first dyno run does have knock sensors enabled... the second dyno run I'm not sure since my MAP rig (previous car) was on a 930... but Todd usually keeps them if at all possible.... ( and I think Jean was affirming the Knock sensors...)
...I dunno.... I've been using/running Protomotive stuff for for 15 years... go look at his web site, look at European car magazines 996TT shootout(he won) they did a dyno run there too... he also built fastest street legal porsche in America on a 993 base.. no meltdown there... and the car is still running around 3ish years later on same build... I think some of the words here were a little harsh wthout knowing all the variables..
Ed
I really wanted to get some thoughts on the whole 'limitation issue' of the stock configuration....and ways around it....
And Kevin, FYI it was 91 octane at least on the first run........ can't vouch for number two.... there were 25 gallons of gas used on run-in and the testing ..
That was the engine previously in my car... it had 8/1 cr versus my static 8.8ish/1... I have .9 bar springs.. and make about the same HP and torque slightly lower in the Rev range....
I openly said I would like to see the air temps.... the first dyno run does have knock sensors enabled... the second dyno run I'm not sure since my MAP rig (previous car) was on a 930... but Todd usually keeps them if at all possible.... ( and I think Jean was affirming the Knock sensors...)
...I dunno.... I've been using/running Protomotive stuff for for 15 years... go look at his web site, look at European car magazines 996TT shootout(he won) they did a dyno run there too... he also built fastest street legal porsche in America on a 993 base.. no meltdown there... and the car is still running around 3ish years later on same build... I think some of the words here were a little harsh wthout knowing all the variables..
Ed
11-13-2005, 12:59 PM
#19
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[QUOTE=TB993tt]JJay
Agree with YO on the first bit, 520 is where most "higher" hp packages will end up.
If your intercooler temp guage is the Andial Davtron, I'm afraid it is pretty useless (unless mine is from a bad batch ) I compared the guage's interpretation of the temp and the readout from a hammer reading the actual air intake which the ECU sees and the Andial guage is way too slow and will not get up to the real intake temps you will be experiencing at high revs.
tb
I use the gauge to avoid high extremes when running spiritedly at track events.
Many times the ambient temp will be in the high 90's + (F). I can assure you this gauge works well on a circuit, where a brief glance is all that is needed once a lap. When my inlet hits 130 its time to cool off. How many modifed turbos have any idea what there inlet temps are? I think we can agreed to disagree on this point, as tuning on a dyno would require a more immediate need to know temps than on a race course where the temps generally build up slower. Most dyno pulls are for 1-2minutes. My track sessions are 20-30 minutes.
No one has mentioned the fact that a bigger cooler needs the proper shrouding to be effective. Why did the factory put all the shrouding around the stock inter-cooler? IMHO thats why most "bigger coolers" are less effective than the stock one. (race cars excepted).
Agree with YO on the first bit, 520 is where most "higher" hp packages will end up.
If your intercooler temp guage is the Andial Davtron, I'm afraid it is pretty useless (unless mine is from a bad batch
) I compared the guage's interpretation of the temp and the readout from a hammer reading the actual air intake which the ECU sees and the Andial guage is way too slow and will not get up to the real intake temps you will be experiencing at high revs.tb
I use the gauge to avoid high extremes when running spiritedly at track events.
Many times the ambient temp will be in the high 90's + (F). I can assure you this gauge works well on a circuit, where a brief glance is all that is needed once a lap. When my inlet hits 130 its time to cool off. How many modifed turbos have any idea what there inlet temps are? I think we can agreed to disagree on this point, as tuning on a dyno would require a more immediate need to know temps than on a race course where the temps generally build up slower. Most dyno pulls are for 1-2minutes. My track sessions are 20-30 minutes.
No one has mentioned the fact that a bigger cooler needs the proper shrouding to be effective. Why did the factory put all the shrouding around the stock inter-cooler? IMHO thats why most "bigger coolers" are less effective than the stock one. (race cars excepted).
11-13-2005, 01:10 PM
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JJay
I take your point, the guage will give you an indication of how hot everything is getting - so I see how it is useful for you at the track.
What I meant was the guage will not show the peak temperatures reached at 7000rpm as you max out in a gear - its sensor is too slow - but since your motor is running full Motronic control, this is not really an issue as the ECU will do its thing if the intake gets above the critical level.
I agree on the shrouding, and also something which is often overlooked - the air intake must be a benefit compared to a big I/C like the Protomotive MAF ones which appear to take up the whole of the space - where does that drag its intake air from ?
I take your point, the guage will give you an indication of how hot everything is getting - so I see how it is useful for you at the track.
What I meant was the guage will not show the peak temperatures reached at 7000rpm as you max out in a gear - its sensor is too slow - but since your motor is running full Motronic control, this is not really an issue as the ECU will do its thing if the intake gets above the critical level.
I agree on the shrouding, and also something which is often overlooked - the air intake must be a benefit compared to a big I/C like the Protomotive MAF ones which appear to take up the whole of the space - where does that drag its intake air from ?
11-13-2005, 01:45 PM
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.. Tb, on street cars there are a pair of K&N's that are relatively high up on either side of the engine... and I dont want to speak for Pmotive here... but I think it's one of the reasons they don't close off the IC with full shrouding..((street). some of the track guys run different tails and intake the air from cooler airstreams...
... I haven't talked to Todd on this.. but my hopefully ontopic :-) quesion is ho w does boost level tie in to IC and overall engine temps and 'cleaner' flow into the engines which is where I was going partially..
... if you have 500 horsepower say at 1 bar boost and then 'smooth/clean' the intake-IC and exhaust tracks where teh 500 hp occurs at say .8 bar.... will the engine run appreciably cooler.... or is the fact taht 500 HP is 500 HP drive the same overall engine temps?? I know there are some other factors hrer like turbo temps-efficiencies contributing etc at teh different boost levels... but isn' this part of the equation... sorry my physics books are mothballed... ;_)
... e
....
... I haven't talked to Todd on this.. but my hopefully ontopic :-) quesion is ho w does boost level tie in to IC and overall engine temps and 'cleaner' flow into the engines which is where I was going partially..
... if you have 500 horsepower say at 1 bar boost and then 'smooth/clean' the intake-IC and exhaust tracks where teh 500 hp occurs at say .8 bar.... will the engine run appreciably cooler.... or is the fact taht 500 HP is 500 HP drive the same overall engine temps?? I know there are some other factors hrer like turbo temps-efficiencies contributing etc at teh different boost levels... but isn' this part of the equation... sorry my physics books are mothballed... ;_)
... e
....
11-14-2005, 03:03 PM
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OT:
Marty... I have to find info.. but I think it pulled 21x mph... It's based in Ft Lauderdale and is owned by the SO of the Office Manager of Prototech.... it was the Porswche street legal Land Speed Record holder in 2001 last time I knew...
Marty... I have to find info.. but I think it pulled 21x mph... It's based in Ft Lauderdale and is owned by the SO of the Office Manager of Prototech.... it was the Porswche street legal Land Speed Record holder in 2001 last time I knew...
06-11-2006, 03:20 AM
#24
Originally Posted by edpurplett
..
... if you have 500 horsepower say at 1 bar boost and then 'smooth/clean' the intake-IC and exhaust tracks where teh 500 hp occurs at say .8 bar.... will the engine run appreciably cooler.... or is the fact taht 500 HP is 500 HP drive the same overall engine temps?? I know there are some other factors hrer like turbo temps-efficiencies contributing etc at teh different boost levels... but isn' this part of the equation... sorry my physics books are mothballed... ;_)
....
... if you have 500 horsepower say at 1 bar boost and then 'smooth/clean' the intake-IC and exhaust tracks where teh 500 hp occurs at say .8 bar.... will the engine run appreciably cooler.... or is the fact taht 500 HP is 500 HP drive the same overall engine temps?? I know there are some other factors hrer like turbo temps-efficiencies contributing etc at teh different boost levels... but isn' this part of the equation... sorry my physics books are mothballed... ;_)
....
Lately I've been looking more at intake restrictions and think 126+ trap speeds are going to require them.
Need to ask Todd what the difference between a full on NA intake and one like K24's w/ larger SCARGO throttle body/modded 993tt intake is on the dyno.
