mjims

If you have a Genuine GT2 Rear spoiler then it utilises the standard turbo middle/top section and this includes the black plastic ducting. It was fitted to my GT2 Spoiler with the standard I/C but I had to remove the extra Black ducting beacuse it touched the Protomotive I/C. I replaced it with some carefully made wire mesh.

Not sure if it makes any difference but at least the lid closes properly now.

Jean

I will post the continuation of the cooler discussion here, in order to avoid further hijack of Andial 911/Q45 thread...

I mentioned in the Andial thread that the very unique Secan intercooler that was used on certain GT2 EVO racing cars was reported to yield 12hp more on a race car..TB raised the question whether this was vs. the Porsche Motorsport cooler, and the answer is yes. This data comes from Conrad himself who raced the last and most succesful 993 GT2 in Le Mans, and not from any tuners. As far as the 20 degrees above atmospheric temperature, efficiency is a percentage and therefore the 20 degrees could be true, but relative, as pointed out to me as well. I hope this is useful info.

TB, if the Motorsport cooler was nothing extraordinary, then your bet is very safe. I hope you get your car 100% fixed in order to run proper dyno runs.
Good luck.

VerySideways

So, if i can get a Protomotive intercooler in "as new" condition for £500 (about $900USD), should i?

Car is standard at present, but i suspect i may be giving Kevin a shout in the near future as i am hearing good things about those hybrids...

Followed by a trip up to 9m racing for a live remap.

Thoughts?

Jean

Verysideways, your engine should be matched to your intercooler for better results. Size of turbos, flow, hp, boost levels, displacement should all be in sync. Get an intercooler too large and you will see pressure drops, too small and it might overheat.
If this is the large intercooler from Protomotive at $900, definitely buy it, even if you want to resell it.
I have not seen or done back to back tests of Protomotive vs. others so I can't tell you if it is better or not, I just know it seems to work very well with my application.

VerySideways

Well, this is it:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Is this the big one you are thinking of?

VerySideways

Oh, looking forward to results from TB too - the "intercooler cook off" is tomorrow right?

Jean

It is the first time I see these end tanks but the cores look like what they use, fin and tube core. The price is very good. 50hp?

TB993tt

The "intercooler cook off" has had to be postponed since my problem has not been cured, my wastegate actuators were set at the recommended 0.4bar. I am awaiting further RS guidance although Tech9 reckon it is the boost frequency valve thingy, the widget which meters the ECU signals into vacuum (if I am not mistaken) - they reckon they have seen a few dodgey ones cause this type of problem. Only trouble is they haven't actually seen any 993tts run to 1.5 bar before so...?
Anyway the funny thing is the guy at the Sportec Distributor said they are currently finishing off rebuilding a 993tt with a Ruf turbo R kit on it and the owner has admired the shiney Sportec I/C they have in stock and they have all been discussing the big tanks, huge core etc and it looks like the Ruf guy may be getting his cheque book out. I am not sure what kind of testing they will be doing but suspect little - but hey its got nice end tanks and a massive core and its REALLY shiney
verysideways
If you could get hold of that Protomotive I/C (very cheap price !!) we could test it at the same time ?
Regards 9M, I have seen his dyno curves for a K24/exhaust/injectors/remap and IMO something doesn't quite add up when I compare it to my curves. This is one of the reason I want to dyno test for the overboost on my car, this may be where my "hidden" hp is.
The other thing I was going to mention, AMD's dyno is not a Maha it is a DynoPlot - can anyone enlighten me as to whether these are any good ? Will it be able to simulate 6th gear "on the road" type loading ?

VerySideways

TB - plan to pick up the I/C at the weekend, but am away from next Tuesday for a week (annual pilgrimage to Le Mans 24h).
If you are postponing for 2 weeks then i will certainly bring my i/c along and we can test all three, that sounds like a good day out!

VS

TB993tt

I'll keep you updated.
Just a note on my rather cynical tone on the potential purchaser of the Sportec I/C by the Ruf guy. I did discuss what they (AMD -Sportec distributor) would do to test the I/C on the Ruf guys car (to check that it was better than the stock one which they were pulling off) and their approach (like many other tuners) seems to be that if they put on the new I/C and remap the ECU (they have the facility they say) and it shows an increase over the original run done when the car came in (the motor was a bit neglected, but at least they did a before run) then it will be hailed a victory and down to the I/C allowing them to program more timing/boost. What they haven't done, because no tuner ever seems to do this when they are proclaiming big things for I/Cs is attempt to remap the refreshed engine with the stock I/C to similar limits - in other words the Ruf mapping may have been much more conservative in the first place and they may have got similar results by a remap alone, but of course why waste time (money) on a remap with the old I/C when the new bigger shiney etc one is bound to give better results.

TB993tt

A bolted on I/C which cools the air better then the one before should (under the same controlled conditions) lower the air intake temp which will increase the DIN corrected hp number - its that simple isn't it ??? You can mess with timing and boost for optimisation afterwards if you want, but for me to have my DIN power on a hot day would be great.
Some numbers to illustrate the effect of ambient temperature on DIN power (taken off RS engine dyno):
30degC ambient temp
@ 5550rpm actual engine power at the flywheel 486PS - corrected engine power to DIN 521PS
So on a 69DegF day your engine is putting out 521hp at the flywheel and on an 86degF day, your 520hp engine is only giving you 486hp - Its a huge difference and illustrates how an intercooler which can keep the charge air temp down by better design/materials will give you free power.

Jean

TB

First of all I think it is great if you can have the three intercoolers tested, it is not everyday that we can have this luxury.

As far as the RUF cooler, I could not agree more with you, although I definitely think that RUF builds some great machines, the chrome shine determines more the effectiveness of the chrome polisher than speed of air flow inside the tanks.

Concerning the conversion of the uncorrected reading on the RS dyno to a DIN reading, the difference in hp would not only be driven by temperature correction, but barometric as well as humidity correction as well.. Also the DIN standard assumes certain (or no) hardware on the car etc..Converting an uncorrected HP reading to DIN standard does not mean (in my understanding) that the difference between two readings is due to the components of the converson, in this case temperature..

To put things into perspective, the difference between SAE and DIN is approximately 1.01 DIN hp = 1 SAE hp, while SAE uses 25 degrees Celsius as a conversion standard and DIN uses 20 Degrees. Barometric pressure difference between both standards is small..According to the previous logic, this shows that a 5 degree temperature difference between the two standards is yielding only a 1% difference in hp output in rough terms, as humidity and hardware components also are slightly different..

I am just pointing this out for the sakes of a debate, as I have no clue if it makes sense, I am far from being an engineer, but you really got me thinking there.

Thanks for the great input.

JJayB

VerySideway
Does the decklid have to be modified to utilize the Protomotice I/C? Many of the big coolers I've seen neglect to provide suffieient shrouding around the deck lid, resulting in a very shiney heat sink.

TB993tt

Jean
It is not really the difference between DIN and SAE which is the killer here, it is the effect of the ambient temperature (and as you say pressure - for the numbers I posted above the pressure was [from memory] 995 the units ?? mbar ? and the DIN correction factor [which only seems to be based on temp and pressure, so presumably the humidity is controlled in the test cell] is 1.072) which really hammers the numbers and the fact which the engine dyno reveals is that with a 30DegC ambient temp both for initial intake and presumably also for blasting thru the I/C cores the actual output was 486PS on the DIN rated -same rating as most Euro cars- 521PS motor. A good illustration on how much difference a better I/C could make ? Another point which springs to mind is when cars are power tested on chassis dynos, a lot of the time it is one run after the I/C has been sprayed with water etc which is not the same as on the engine dyno when the engines are held for a longer period under load at say 6500rpm (which while the mapping is optimised) and the heat allowed to reach its maximum to ensure the engine can take it - I think Kevin found this when he had to remove the rear bumper off the 993tt which Gunther was mapping otherwise Gunther said the bumper would melt - how many people doing dyno runs have to do this ? On the road it means the power you see at max temperature on the dyno will be available to you (albiet at its relative ambient adjusted level to DIN) without falling off.
It is interesting to guess what your DIN 700hp motor is actually putting out in some of the temperatures you run in -still enough to scare you witless
I noticed that the French Porsche mag Flat Six who road test a lot of the cars they test with the important 100-200kph time started adding the ambient temperature to the data. Being Europe, some cars were tested in 3DegC and others in 25DegC and it does show in the performance numbers. I will try to dig some out if anyone is interested ?
JJay
I am pretty sure you need a GT2 wing for the Protomotive I/C to fit.

VerySideways

The ebay ad implies that it'll fit under a standard 993tt wing without modification, as per the picture.
This gets more intriguing by the day!