RUF 993 Turbo R upgrade
02-17-2005, 03:21 AM
#31
Drifting
One thing I forgot too is that the Turbo R package comes with a one year warranty, something that I don't think you get from most tuners, if any. RUF brings a lot of comfort to the buying experience as well. You know their customer service is legendary, they'll come to your house to solve the smallest of problems with their products. When I did my suspension, I paid a pretty high price for what amounts to a tweaked set of PSS9's, but in the end, I have been VERY, VERY happy with the RUF PSS9/rear bar combo.
You know when you pick up the ipod-mini and it just feels right in your hands? You just know that someone put a lot of thought into that product and every angle of it has been worked to make your user experience better. It's the same with RUF products, it doesn't make any logical sense why other companies can't match it, but it also doesn't make any logical sense why companies can't seem to get an ipod copy right either.
You can't go wrong going RUF. I've bought two suspensions from them and have raced their Turbo R. I've been very happy with both my purchases and the Turbo R is still the best car I've ever driven, it was magical. $25k is cheap for magical in my mind...
You know when you pick up the ipod-mini and it just feels right in your hands? You just know that someone put a lot of thought into that product and every angle of it has been worked to make your user experience better. It's the same with RUF products, it doesn't make any logical sense why other companies can't match it, but it also doesn't make any logical sense why companies can't seem to get an ipod copy right either.
You can't go wrong going RUF. I've bought two suspensions from them and have raced their Turbo R. I've been very happy with both my purchases and the Turbo R is still the best car I've ever driven, it was magical. $25k is cheap for magical in my mind...
02-17-2005, 08:51 AM
#32
Three Wheelin'
Ruf does awesome stuff. No doubt. However, it's not even close to appropriate to throw all other tuners into the "mail order" parts category.
When it comes to upgrading your car, you can buy some parts and do it yourself which may or may not give you a good package (odds are certainly against us little guys doing it as well). You can take it to a comprehensive tuner like Steve Weiner, Stephen Kaspar or Andial or you can go to Ruf.
Ruf isn't going to build you a *better* car than these other really competent tuners. He isn't going to give you more service and the total package isn't going to be better. Now, you can buy a set of Kevin's turbos from Stephen Kaspar and throw them on your 993TT. Is the end result going to be a Ruf? No, but that is hardly a "tuned" car from Stephen.
The good thing about these other guys is that they do a lot more custom work. You decide which cam, turbo, exhaust and gearing you want and they design the package around your goals with what you are willing to accept in longevity and driveability compromises. You build the package together to meet your desires.
These other options are for the more technical geeks among us that want to understand the ins and outs of every little thing they do to their cars. Ruf is for the guy who doesn't want to know about all that stuff. He just wants a great package with the peace of mind that comes with the brand name and he's willing to pay for it. Like Dinan for BMWs.
I generally believe you get what you pay for in life, but that doesn't always mean more expensive is better. You have to investigate the details. A friend of mine did a taste test in high school with Coke and Pepsi and Sams cola and RC, etc. Not a single person could tell the difference between any of them. The Coke drinkers couldn't pick out the coke. There was absolutely no correlation between price and taste. So why do we all keep paying up for the brand? Good marketing. Ruf is the best marketer in the world - bar none.
-dc
When it comes to upgrading your car, you can buy some parts and do it yourself which may or may not give you a good package (odds are certainly against us little guys doing it as well). You can take it to a comprehensive tuner like Steve Weiner, Stephen Kaspar or Andial or you can go to Ruf.
Ruf isn't going to build you a *better* car than these other really competent tuners. He isn't going to give you more service and the total package isn't going to be better. Now, you can buy a set of Kevin's turbos from Stephen Kaspar and throw them on your 993TT. Is the end result going to be a Ruf? No, but that is hardly a "tuned" car from Stephen.
The good thing about these other guys is that they do a lot more custom work. You decide which cam, turbo, exhaust and gearing you want and they design the package around your goals with what you are willing to accept in longevity and driveability compromises. You build the package together to meet your desires.
These other options are for the more technical geeks among us that want to understand the ins and outs of every little thing they do to their cars. Ruf is for the guy who doesn't want to know about all that stuff. He just wants a great package with the peace of mind that comes with the brand name and he's willing to pay for it. Like Dinan for BMWs.
I generally believe you get what you pay for in life, but that doesn't always mean more expensive is better. You have to investigate the details. A friend of mine did a taste test in high school with Coke and Pepsi and Sams cola and RC, etc. Not a single person could tell the difference between any of them. The Coke drinkers couldn't pick out the coke. There was absolutely no correlation between price and taste. So why do we all keep paying up for the brand? Good marketing. Ruf is the best marketer in the world - bar none.
-dc
02-17-2005, 09:04 AM
#33
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Whilst Ruf's package @ $25KUS may seem a lot for the componentry which can easily be listed, it is never as simple as that."Turbos $4000" , "cams $1000" , "tuning $1500", misses the point about the R&D which has gone into making the Ruf package work together and it is this which one pays the premium for. Show me a 993tt which has the same performance as Bill Ss for your $20K - yes it may have 490HP peak, but will it do the 60-130mph in similar times ? will it have the low end response?
I do feel that Bill Ss motor is a particularly "good" one and is running closer to 540hp than the 500-525hp which most TurboRs manage.
My recent foray was particularly expensive, but that is because RSs "R&D" had to be done for my new set up - even with a base twin plug K24RS map the engine dyno time cost over $7KUS + . How about turbos @ $5KUS each. Ask Kevin how much some of the specialised stuff he is buying for his new motor is costing
Tuning Porsches to deliver similar power/torque curves as the factory, but higher is an expensive business, as JJay says - 550hp yes but that is a whole different power curve.
I do feel that Bill Ss motor is a particularly "good" one and is running closer to 540hp than the 500-525hp which most TurboRs manage.
My recent foray was particularly expensive, but that is because RSs "R&D" had to be done for my new set up - even with a base twin plug K24RS map the engine dyno time cost over $7KUS + . How about turbos @ $5KUS each. Ask Kevin how much some of the specialised stuff he is buying for his new motor is costing
Tuning Porsches to deliver similar power/torque curves as the factory, but higher is an expensive business, as JJay says - 550hp yes but that is a whole different power curve.
02-17-2005, 09:35 AM
#34
Three Wheelin'
This discussion reminds me of one of my good Porsche buddy's sayings: " after this last upgrade I know my car is faster now cause my wallet is so much lighter."
Ruf doesn't tell us his cam specs, he doesn't compete in performance events and he's very reluctant to let magazines test his cars. Why? Everything to lose and nothing to gain. If you could see the cam specs you'd probably see that they are close to what others are using. Unless he's using F1 quality electromagnetic valve actuation. It's all part of the mystique, which works really well. Just look at this discussion.
Like everything in life, the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle of the grey area. Ruf has a really nice package. Could we duplicate it for much less if we had the specs? Of course. Hell, didn't Ruf's top mechanic leave recently and setup his own shop? Have others done enough work on Porsche turbos to come really close to duplicating Ruf? Probably.
-dc
Ruf doesn't tell us his cam specs, he doesn't compete in performance events and he's very reluctant to let magazines test his cars. Why? Everything to lose and nothing to gain. If you could see the cam specs you'd probably see that they are close to what others are using. Unless he's using F1 quality electromagnetic valve actuation. It's all part of the mystique, which works really well. Just look at this discussion.
Like everything in life, the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle of the grey area. Ruf has a really nice package. Could we duplicate it for much less if we had the specs? Of course. Hell, didn't Ruf's top mechanic leave recently and setup his own shop? Have others done enough work on Porsche turbos to come really close to duplicating Ruf? Probably.
-dc
02-17-2005, 10:28 AM
#35
One of Ruf's main guys left and started 9ff.
All point you guys have made here are valid.
I think you've got to look at where you are going to drive your car. Ruf does an awesome job at giving you a car that works wonderfully poodling around town but also gives you fantastic performance. Like the factory only faster.
Is the Ruf the best set up for the race track?...probably not. But how often are you going to be at the track versus driving across town.
Ruf has a lot of mystique, but it also works very well..and yes, you get a 12,000mile-1 year warranty. Many of the tuners bits can be selected to work equally well...no warranty though..that I've heard of. Your money...your pick!
All point you guys have made here are valid.
I think you've got to look at where you are going to drive your car. Ruf does an awesome job at giving you a car that works wonderfully poodling around town but also gives you fantastic performance. Like the factory only faster.
Is the Ruf the best set up for the race track?...probably not. But how often are you going to be at the track versus driving across town.
Ruf has a lot of mystique, but it also works very well..and yes, you get a 12,000mile-1 year warranty. Many of the tuners bits can be selected to work equally well...no warranty though..that I've heard of. Your money...your pick!
02-17-2005, 11:02 AM
#36
Drifting
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IT LOOKS LIKE MOST EVERYONE AGREES, $10-13K WONT GET YOU WHAT YOU THINK, BECAUSE
ONE THING LEADS TO ANOTHER AND WE ARE ALL TRYING TO ACHIEVE A BALANCED SYSTEM
ON OUR OWN THAT MANY TUNERS HAVE SPENT ALOT OF TIME AND RESEARCH ON. FEW DO IT
AS WELL AS ALOIS (RUF), AS I HAVE DRIVEN HIS CARS IN GERMANY AND ALSO SPENT ONE ON ONE
TIME WITH HIM IN GERMANY AND IN MINNESOTA (OF ALL CRAZY PLACES). NO ONE IS UPSET, IT
JUST PLAIN AND SIMPLE COSTS ALOT OF MONEY TO MODIFY THESE CARS CORRECTLY. IT IS A FUN
CHALLENGE FOR SOME TO SEE HOW MUCH MONEY THEY CAN "SAVE", BY DOING IT THEMSELVES.
(LIKE ME, AND MY SHOP, AUTO EDGE). MORE POWER TO ALL OF US!!
ONE THING LEADS TO ANOTHER AND WE ARE ALL TRYING TO ACHIEVE A BALANCED SYSTEM
ON OUR OWN THAT MANY TUNERS HAVE SPENT ALOT OF TIME AND RESEARCH ON. FEW DO IT
AS WELL AS ALOIS (RUF), AS I HAVE DRIVEN HIS CARS IN GERMANY AND ALSO SPENT ONE ON ONE
TIME WITH HIM IN GERMANY AND IN MINNESOTA (OF ALL CRAZY PLACES). NO ONE IS UPSET, IT
JUST PLAIN AND SIMPLE COSTS ALOT OF MONEY TO MODIFY THESE CARS CORRECTLY. IT IS A FUN
CHALLENGE FOR SOME TO SEE HOW MUCH MONEY THEY CAN "SAVE", BY DOING IT THEMSELVES.
(LIKE ME, AND MY SHOP, AUTO EDGE). MORE POWER TO ALL OF US!!
02-17-2005, 12:20 PM
#37
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it is not for nothing that for example rs-tuning and sportec charge quite the same amount of money for similar tuning stages. exchange rates also do hurt now 
as i understood if you go with rs-tuning you have the best top-end possible with our air cooled engines.
they made me an offer for a small money package that "drives the stock 450hp version easily away in every rpm range" and i believe them. just watch the nürburgring dvd with the 996 monster turbo with rs engine... nice
as sportec goes i think there is also same ex-ruf mechanic but i dont know for sure...
their stage 3 is similar to the ruf package in price and power. i know one customer of them and he is very happy. they make even more low end torque than the turbo r.
a short translation of their stage 3 package:
-> New K16 Hybrids, cams, ecu, race cats, muffler, air filter, big oil cooler, fuel pressure regulator, intake manifold, dyno test
Max. Leistung: 404 KW (550 PS) @ 6600 RPM
Max. Drehmoment: 720 NM @ 4300 RPM -> that is the torque, stock is 540 NM
Max. Geschwindigkeit: ca. 328 km/h -> V-Max ~ 205mph, same like turbo r
Max. Beschleunigung: ca. 3.7 Sekunden von 0-100 km/h -> 0 - 62,5 mph 3.7s, same like turbo r
Komplettpreis SFr. 34'701.60 SFr. 37'338.90 -> price incl. labour is 29.000 USD excl. VAT
As same people here stated most times over time we forget what we reallys pay for all mods and in the end it sums up to a nice turbo r or rs-tuning package. but most people can not rationalize to spend that kind of money in one session. so we do it step by step. but i doubt that the result is really as good as it could be. but it for sure is an experience and fun.
it is up to you
as i understood if you go with rs-tuning you have the best top-end possible with our air cooled engines.
they made me an offer for a small money package that "drives the stock 450hp version easily away in every rpm range" and i believe them. just watch the nürburgring dvd with the 996 monster turbo with rs engine... nice
as sportec goes i think there is also same ex-ruf mechanic but i dont know for sure...
their stage 3 is similar to the ruf package in price and power. i know one customer of them and he is very happy. they make even more low end torque than the turbo r.
a short translation of their stage 3 package:
-> New K16 Hybrids, cams, ecu, race cats, muffler, air filter, big oil cooler, fuel pressure regulator, intake manifold, dyno test
Max. Leistung: 404 KW (550 PS) @ 6600 RPM
Max. Drehmoment: 720 NM @ 4300 RPM -> that is the torque, stock is 540 NM
Max. Geschwindigkeit: ca. 328 km/h -> V-Max ~ 205mph, same like turbo r
Max. Beschleunigung: ca. 3.7 Sekunden von 0-100 km/h -> 0 - 62,5 mph 3.7s, same like turbo r
Komplettpreis SFr. 34'701.60 SFr. 37'338.90 -> price incl. labour is 29.000 USD excl. VAT
As same people here stated most times over time we forget what we reallys pay for all mods and in the end it sums up to a nice turbo r or rs-tuning package. but most people can not rationalize to spend that kind of money in one session. so we do it step by step. but i doubt that the result is really as good as it could be. but it for sure is an experience and fun.
it is up to you
02-17-2005, 12:29 PM
#38
Originally Posted by Derick Cooper
Ruf doesn't tell us his cam specs, he doesn't compete in performance events and he's very reluctant to let magazines test his cars. Why? Everything to lose and nothing to gain. -dc
http://www.excellence-mag.com/back_issues.html
And didn't Ruf cars just compete in the German Tuner competition?
Ultimately, IMHO, some of the tuners on this board can probaly build a car equal or even better than Ruf.
It just boils down to choice.
02-17-2005, 02:55 PM
#39
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by canysmc
Didn't Excellence just do a road test on a Ruf car last month?
http://www.excellence-mag.com/back_issues.html
And didn't Ruf cars just compete in the German Tuner competition?
Ultimately, IMHO, some of the tuners on this board can probaly build a car equal or even better than Ruf.
It just boils down to choice.
http://www.excellence-mag.com/back_issues.html
And didn't Ruf cars just compete in the German Tuner competition?
Ultimately, IMHO, some of the tuners on this board can probaly build a car equal or even better than Ruf.
It just boils down to choice.
I don't think he did the german tuner, but I could be wrong. More of Gembellas forte.
-dc
02-17-2005, 03:24 PM
#41
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That brings to mind a question I've had. If you have twin plug heads, don't the turbos have to be removed to change all the plugs? If so, wouldn't it be relatively simple to adjust solids at that point? Finally, would the 30K plug change interval also be appropriate for valve adjustment?
02-17-2005, 03:42 PM
#42
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Just a comment and opinion - I looked seriously at a car that Todd Knighton @ Protomotive built, and though I did not purchase that car, I have to say that he seemed to know what he was doing, and I believe the car would have been very well sorted, extremely powerful and quick. I would also say that the mods we were discussing were not cheap, though the situation around that car made the overall price more palatable. I am not rich, by any means, but it seems to me that $25k for the complete RUF upgrade - at these exchange rates - is not excessive for what you get. Yeah, you can do some things for less, but it is a pretty sweet package, and you know it will work.
02-17-2005, 04:37 PM
#43
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One more thing - Todd was open and provided lots of information, and answered my questions quickly and completely. I felt very comfortable talking with him and believe he does good work, and I also believe he is a person to talk to if you are going to consider major engine mods, etc. FWIW, no affiliation, etc, etc.
02-17-2005, 08:57 PM
#44
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I didn't intend for this to turn into a tuner shootout thing. RUF is RUF. I simply happen to have a 993TT. And, RUF is so customer centric as to be willing to produce and warranty yet another 993 Turbo R, seven years after Porsche abandoned the 993. And, will do it for $20K less than charged in 1998. And, because RUF US headquarters is 18 miles away, my only extra expense is fuel to drive there.
What is the real question? Do I want to put $25K in a nine year old car? No, for my intended purposes, that is stupid. I've been collecting parts all year to do a Rennlist Level 2 upgrade. Kevin turbos, Steve mapping, ViperBob PSS9/RS clutch, Gert cooler. I can do that in my garage, by myself.
Do I want to buy a RUF Turbo R for my car plus $25,000 ? Hmmm... I've got a 520hp Motronic sitting in front of me. In the garagemahal; 100 cell cats, BB headers, turbo cores for Kevin, '98 trans mainshaft, rotors in Porsche boxes, all paid for. The current plan is to put a 997GT3 in the Z06 slot. It just seems a little over the top to have a RUF Turbo R sitting next to a 997GT3. Maybe if I sold off some Harleys. Or guns...
What is the real question? Do I want to put $25K in a nine year old car? No, for my intended purposes, that is stupid. I've been collecting parts all year to do a Rennlist Level 2 upgrade. Kevin turbos, Steve mapping, ViperBob PSS9/RS clutch, Gert cooler. I can do that in my garage, by myself.
Do I want to buy a RUF Turbo R for my car plus $25,000 ? Hmmm... I've got a 520hp Motronic sitting in front of me. In the garagemahal; 100 cell cats, BB headers, turbo cores for Kevin, '98 trans mainshaft, rotors in Porsche boxes, all paid for. The current plan is to put a 997GT3 in the Z06 slot. It just seems a little over the top to have a RUF Turbo R sitting next to a 997GT3. Maybe if I sold off some Harleys. Or guns...
02-17-2005, 09:52 PM
#45
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Some first hand FYI - Re factory RUFs
After rebuilding my engine from the ground up with RUF Germany's assistance I can say first hand......
The Cams are non standard and have all numbers filed off them.
The ECU program is RUF's matched to the car.
They modify standard 964 pistons, in mine anyway.
The Torque curve is extremely different to all the posted dynos I have seen on Rennlist so far. (See my post of dyno RUF) Very fat and comes on very hard at just over 3000 RPM.
If you want a big HP number then bolt it on yourself.
If you want a balanced fast car in all aspects with no "learn for yourself" then go with RUF.
HP wins arguments Torgue win races.
The Cams are non standard and have all numbers filed off them.
The ECU program is RUF's matched to the car.
They modify standard 964 pistons, in mine anyway.
The Torque curve is extremely different to all the posted dynos I have seen on Rennlist so far. (See my post of dyno RUF) Very fat and comes on very hard at just over 3000 RPM.
If you want a big HP number then bolt it on yourself.
If you want a balanced fast car in all aspects with no "learn for yourself" then go with RUF.
HP wins arguments Torgue win races.