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Thinking the unthinkable ??? (very, very long)

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Old 04-11-2002, 10:16 AM
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911-TOUR
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Exclamation Thinking the unthinkable ??? (very, very long)

My fellow rennlisters,

Many of you have read the tales I've told about getting my car sorted over the last 6 months - including the latest rear main seal oil leak. As of late the car has me coughing up $1000 to $1500 /month for maintainence. On a car that checked out 100 % on the PPI I had done when I bought it one year ago in March (seriously, the shop I took it to in San Jose told me it was the cleanest car he'd ever seen at any milage!!!).

My 993 is the 4th 911 I have had the fortune of living with on a day-to-day basis. And it's wonderful, don't get me wrong. But the fact of the matter is, I'm wondering if this car (and most non-basic transportation cars in general these days) isn't so complex that maintaining it once it has reached that high-milage regime isn't prohibitively expensive. With all of the electrical gagetry and sophisticated engine management, I'm wondering how long these cars will go before something *really* big fails.

So to make a long story short, over the last day-or-two I've been pondering the unthinkable...selling the 993 once it's had this latest repair. With a new house coming in July, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be wise to give up the maintainence and go for a lease on a new Boxster 2.7 (which in my area are now going for $399/mo).

Thing is, I grew up on air-cooled 911s, (that pic earlier this week was me when I was a toddler ). And I'm worried that the experience won't be the same with a boxster. Obviously, I didn't buy one last year when I could have - something was just missing. But of late, driving the 911 is less fun, because I'm always parnoid about the next thing that's going to crop up. Money really isn't an issue, I can swing things either way, it's just hard to have a supposedly "bulletproof" car eat away huge chunks of cash every month.

So everyone knows my thoughts now, I'd be interested in how those of you with high-milage maintainence prone cars are rationalizing things....all advice welcome.

cheers,

sean
Old 04-11-2002, 10:37 AM
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laurence '97 C4S
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Sean-
Interesting question you pose- will time in general cause big repair bills. In the real long term, you have a point. However, I suspect your current situation has more to do with the specific car you own (despite your having gotten a clean bill of health on purchase).

In my own case, I am the original owner of my '97 C4S. My expenses have only been for routine up keep. My car is low miles, however, this can often create as many problems as a high mile car. I do not anticipate that as my car becomes 2 years older (equal to your '95 now) that I will experience a rash of bills.

In anycase sorry to hear your situation. There is always a cetain amount of Russian Roulette when purchasing a used car.
Old 04-11-2002, 10:52 AM
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Greg Fishman
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Sean,
Sorry to hear about your luck. I wonder if these items are things that were corrected or improved with later models. My 98 that I purchased new has been almost flawless, one hydraulic lifter fixed under warranty and one that wasn't. I have 25K miles on the car and used it on the track for several years before I built a dedicated track car. My car will be 5 years old this fall.

I didn't fit in my friends Boxster very well (I am 6ft,200lbs) and the cockpit felt very closed in. I think it is a good little car but not a 911. I tried to persuade my friend to get an older 993 instead of a Boxster but financing/leasing options and the lack of a warranty put him in a Boxster.

Hopefully you have all the big repairs taken care of, and if you do sell the car you won't recoup that $$. The repair costs are sunk costs.
Greg
Old 04-11-2002, 11:09 AM
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Bins
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Dear Sean,

I know exactly what you are going through as I have been through similar circumstances (although not as extreme or expensive).

First its OH OH! DOH!
Next its a real bad taste!!
Then Paranoia sets in.
Next! Do I sell the car??
But then what about the cost and effort I have put into the car. The next owner will enjoy all of that. But then what if I keep it and something else goes wrong.
What to do??? Do I give it one more chance??

But now I have a 993, I want to stay with one for a little while longer at least.
My personal thoughts have been to keep it for a little longer and then possibly replace it with a 993 targa, when I can afford to.
But on the other hand if anything else expensive happens I might just let it go.

While they a repairing the car,have them completely check the car over (for a couple of hours) for any other potential surprises. That obviously doesnt guarantee anything but may give you a little peace of mind.

Regards
Old 04-11-2002, 11:15 AM
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Hank Cohn
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Sean:

Mine is a 70K mile 1995 and I have had some of the same problems you have had and some other ones too. Leaking rear seal, worn clutch, leaking power steering pump, a clutch pedal that won’t return, worn synchronizers in the transmission, faulty engine wiring harness and broken sunroof cables just to name a few. I didn’t buy my car to be a daily driver, but I usually do drive it instead of my Nissan Pathfinder.

In 2001, I purchased a ’99 E36 M3 which was still under warranty. I’ll freely admit that it was the best street car I have ever owned and had all the amenities and sportiness I was looking for. Additionally, I still had a Porsche race car, so I wasn’t completely Porscheless. My wife had just completed a three-day professional driving school (Panoz) and I wanted a car that we could drive to the track and share for DEs. My race car is, in my opinion, too much car for her to handle at this point and, probably forever! But, that’s just my opinion

It sounds like you have had Porsches a lot longer than I have, but I know that I have grown to really appreciate them for what they are capable of doing. I sold the M3 in eight months. After the first track event where I was the only driver, all four rotors were warped, the brake pads were reduced to burnt caked pucks, the engine under tray fell off and I was advised to overfill the oil to keep from depriving engine parts from that vital liquid.

As I had owned a 993 before that I turned into a dedicated track car, I decided to buy another one. Trying to keep the price down, I bought a ’95 and feel that I now have the perfect mix of cars for my needs (wants). I have tracked my ’95 a few times (4) since buying it which has further confirmed my feeling about 993s. Are they bulletproof? Not really. But they shrug off hard track days as if they were made to do them. And, I think they were.

As you are aware, some of the maintenance requires a mechanic and is expensive, but the total package is very impressive. I think a Boxster would be a lot of fun. I know it is very fun and track worthy as I have had the privilege of riding in several of them. For me, I get a great amount of pleasure and satisfaction out of driving a fundamentally flawed engineering design around a track and around town. The one thing no one can say about a 993 or any 911 for that matter is that it is boring. It is a high-involvement driver experience. I think you will miss your 993 a lot. It sounds like you are nearing the end of this round of maintenance. My unsolicited advice is to persevere through this round of maintenance, get a little distance from check you are going to write to your mechanic and then make a decision.

Hank Cohn
Old 04-11-2002, 11:23 AM
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Randall G.
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Hey Sean,

I often feel the same as you do now.

I've paid to rebuild the engine on my first 911 (a '66), the transmission on my second (an '84, only owned for about a year) and--worst of all--to replace the engine on my current car when a rod bearing spun at 100k miles. In addition, as you point out, there are all the $1,000 here and $1,000 there items that fail on these cars.

The C2 engine was a real stinger, planting the most fertile seeds of doubt, as I had bought the car when it was nearly new. I had done all maintenance per the factory recommendations, checked oil regularly, did not modify the engine, etc., believing I could avoid major failures caused by a P.O.'s neglect.

My wife owns a '96 Miata. In 2.5 years of ownership, the only thing we've done, besides routine maintenance, is replace the rear window--a whopping $250 repair bill (chump change, in Porsche $$).

That said .... I drive the Miata to work two days a week. It's certainly a fun car, but it does not make me a) want to get out of bed in the morning so I can drive to work, or; b) look forward to getting off work, so I can drive home!

I would have no problem switching to another make of sports car--one with that's less expensive to maintain and a less severe big-ticket liability--if a car was to come along that makes me feel the way my beautiful, fast & wonderful sounding 911 does, and does all the things this car can do (e.g., an emergency back seat, flat area for the dog and a top that comes off).

As I've alluded to above, I sometimes wonder if I ought not sell the car--the thought of another catastrophic failure is frightening. But, until a car comes along that I really want, I'm consoled by reminding myself that I can't take my money with me to the grave, so I'm going to enjoy some of my hard-earned discretionary income as I see fit.

Best of luck with your decision!
Old 04-11-2002, 11:27 AM
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Matt Vaughan
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Hang in there Sean! I say hold onto the car because you will miss it when it's gone. The Boxster is a nice little car, but it's no 911. I had a few problems on my '95 car, but once those were fixed the car exhibited no problems for tens of thousands of miles. I sold the car to get into a coupe, as well as the last year of the model.
Old 04-11-2002, 11:55 AM
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J-McDonald
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Sean --- the timing of your post is uncanny. I have had a pretty profound string of bad luck with my '91 C2 cab, which I purchased last March with 97k miles, which has led me to many of the same thoughts as you've had.

I was initially hesitant to buy a car with such high mileage, but was repeatedly assured of the durability and longevity of Porsche 911's. Also, my car had one previous owner (1991-2001), who was reportedly very fastidious in maintaining it. Finally, it passed a PPI with flying colors, with the mechanic also noting how much nicer it was than any other '91 that he had seen.

Despite the above, it has undoubtedly been the worst car that I have ever owned from a dependability perspective. (Fortunately, I don't rely on it to get to work.) Since I've had it, no more than two months have gone by when it hasn't been back to the dealer for something or another. Fortunately, I haven't yet had any major ($1,000 plus) repairs, but the car has consistently drained an average of $500 or so every couple on months in repairs from my bank account. The money isn't really an issue; it's more the pain in the *** of making trips to the dealer and having it be out of service. Most recently, the car's oil pressure (a consistent 1.1 +/-.1 at idle when hot (9:00pm)) has become a cause for concern. The prospect of a top-end rebuild (at $4-5,000) has me seriously thinking about getting rid of it and getting a new warrantied Boxster that I don't have to worry about.

Despite all of this, when everything is working right, there really is nothing quite like my 911. Also, I have invested considerable time, effort and cash it getting it to be exactly how I want it (17" Cup wheels, white gauges, RS America tail, really nice Alpine stereo system), so the idea of throwing all of this away in favor of an anonymous Boxster really bothers me.

I'm really in the grips of indecision. I'll probably see how the summer goes. If it's anything like the past 6 months or so, I think that I'll be a new Boxster owner by the early fall.
Old 04-11-2002, 12:45 PM
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Tom Pepper
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Man, can I relate to this thread.
I bought my 993 new in 95. I'll spare you the litany of woes regarding the cost of maintaining and reparing it. I will agree with sage observations of others about the joy of owning this car. Yes, there has been a burned valve, the deteriorating harness, failed power steering...but I still love my 993 and will continue to pump more bucks into it to keep it alive and well...there simply is no alternative. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Old 04-11-2002, 01:07 PM
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May I suggest to pay off and keep the 993 and lease a Boxter???

Myself on kind of the same predicament, I bought a used M3,automatic and much like Hank my wife and I use this car when driving around in town. I bought the 95 993 because I wanted to afford to have two cars and keep the 993 special for twisty rides and track fun.

The benefit I have found is that by driving the 993 occasionally it makes me fall in love with the car time after time. I think the absence makes it even more special and you get to appreciate more the 993 for what it is.

I would keep my 993 and buy a little used Civic for my tooling around the town. I have driven a lot of times the boxter and although I like it a lot it simply cannot compare to the 993.

On a final thought getting a low milaege 968 which I had owned previously and was without problems for 4 years apart from an A/C compressor could still keep you in Porsche land without having to sacrifice your 993. I would have kept mine but it was a 6 speed and my wife cannot drive a stick so unfortunately she had to go...

Well just a thought...good luck in what you decide to do...

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Old 04-11-2002, 01:31 PM
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Jim Richards
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Hi Sean,

Do you rely on your 993 as a daily driver? If not, I was wondering if you might go the DIY route to cut down on your out-of-pocket expenses, albeit at the expense of some additional down time for your car. I'll bet there's a number of folks in your area that would be willing to look over your shoulder if you find that useful. Also, the Rennlist folks can be a tremendous resource. If you really enjoy your car when it's working, it's a shame to let its flaws overwhelm you.

Best wishes for whatever you decide to do about this.

Jim
1995 Black 993
Old 04-11-2002, 01:39 PM
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laurence '97 C4S
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Seems to be a common theme... sounds like, if you can, you maybe better off with a '96 or later 993. At least based upon the responses thus far.
Old 04-11-2002, 01:54 PM
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Edward
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Sean,

Truly, my condolences. I hope that I do not experien$e what you and others have posted here, other than the normal wear-and-tear stuff, that is.

Now for the rest of you...cut it out!!! You're all scaring me. I've only anticipated P-car ownership since I was 10, and currently am still in the "honeymoon" stage of owning my dreamcar (1 year now as a daily driver).

Seriously, I have no illusions about "exotic" car ownership. I did MUCH research and legwork on Porsche/BMW/Ferrari before I decided that Porsche would offer me the best smiles per gallon per dollar. Then, I slaved over which P-car to buy...I nearly drove my wife nuts over all the deliberation and tire-kicking. Still, I think I got the best that I can afford while still being able to enjoy (hopefully, if all that research I did was fruitful) the car over the long haul. Perhaps all you high-milage/daily drivers out there (E.J., et al) can chime in to ease my (and perhaps others') concerns.

Again, Sean, hope all goes well and that, if this is of any comfort, at the very least you state that cost is not the primary issue here for you....something that cannot be said for me for example!

Edward
Old 04-11-2002, 02:33 PM
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KC993
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Sean,

DO NOT SELL THE CAR !!!
It's part of your family. You don't TRADE your family member because of illnesses, you suck it up and see her through.
Funny how people remembered the bad times when they still have the car and missed the good times when they sold the car. Look at the people around you that drive the same cars, you are going to miss all of us, too.
Let it out on this board or even cry it out here, we will help you through.... but don't let your 993 be part of your great memories. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Old 04-11-2002, 02:57 PM
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Hi Sean,

I'm really sorry to hear about that and I sure hope that things will get better soon.

Interestingly I had a weird dream last night and it is somewhat related to this. In my dream, I was driving an E46 M3 (I used to own one) but then I was very sad because while I was driving, I saw this nice 993 on the road and I really miss driving that car. I felt horrible, it was not a pleasant dream to say the least.

Now in my case, in Oct last year I sold my M3 to get a 993 so that's why this dream is weird to me.

At any rate, as Hank mentioned in his post, I sure hope that you are near the end of this round of maintenance.


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