Thinking the unthinkable ??? (very, very long)
04-11-2002, 11:14 PM
#31
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I think all vintage's of the 993's are great machines. I researched them all (with the help of this list) and I never discounted any version for being any less than the next.
I took all of this into account, then bought the 1995 I have parked in the garage now (I assumed the car would need normal maintenance, planned accordingly, and then bought the car I wanted).
I think you probably did the same thing as me, the only difference is that you & some others typed "money really is not an issue." With me, money is, and always will be an issue. You have to be smart with the green. I try to be smart w/ it everyday.
That is why I bought a 993, and drive it most everyday.
Honestly, I think you have just gotten the car to where you need it to be. You may have a short list of other things you want to do, but who doesn't? Space them out, find better prices on some items. Take up offers of free labor help, and enjoy the improvements you make. Don't sell the car off now. Use your improvements, don't just give them to the next owner!
Lastly... My 1995 has been as reliable as a stone (knock on leather). But I cant fault you for thinking "warantee" and "new" about a $399 per mo Boxster. Cars do wear on ya (sometimes they are outright awful to us), but keep the faith. You have a good machine there.
I took all of this into account, then bought the 1995 I have parked in the garage now (I assumed the car would need normal maintenance, planned accordingly, and then bought the car I wanted).
I think you probably did the same thing as me, the only difference is that you & some others typed "money really is not an issue." With me, money is, and always will be an issue. You have to be smart with the green. I try to be smart w/ it everyday.
That is why I bought a 993, and drive it most everyday.
Honestly, I think you have just gotten the car to where you need it to be. You may have a short list of other things you want to do, but who doesn't? Space them out, find better prices on some items. Take up offers of free labor help, and enjoy the improvements you make. Don't sell the car off now. Use your improvements, don't just give them to the next owner!
Lastly... My 1995 has been as reliable as a stone (knock on leather). But I cant fault you for thinking "warantee" and "new" about a $399 per mo Boxster. Cars do wear on ya (sometimes they are outright awful to us), but keep the faith. You have a good machine there.
04-11-2002, 11:46 PM
#32
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Sean,
It is interesting to note that you feel that Ferrari's cannot be daily drivers. This is the precise reason why I didn't buy one and ended up with a 993 instead.
I had always spent my car fantasy time growing up dreaming of Ferraris. In the middle of last year, I started shopping round for a 'fun' car as our second car which I would use for the daily commute to work and back. Naturally, I went to look at Ferraris but with annual servicing cost expected to be around 100-150% more than that of a 993 and the additional down time to boot, I soon refocused and thanks in part to the input of this board, I am also one of those who jump out of bed in the morning (sometimes at the crack of dawn to take the long route and an extra 2 hours
) to drive to work and do the same at the end of a work day.
There will always be the possibility of uncertainty and bad experiences when you buy a second hand car. Some of us will end up paying for the POs lack of care for a car. In your case, I would habour a guess that you have 'renewed' much of the car and thus would be able to enjoy relatively trouble free motoring over the next 6-12 months. If you do have a series of things that need to be done, why don't you get it all done in one go and then enjoy a good long spell of trouble free motoring?
I agree that there seems to be a slighty over-sentitive view of the 'troubles of 95 cars' on this board. We certainly do not have these issues here in Singapore but this could in part be due to the extensive work done by our sole authorised dealer when it comes to service buletins and product recalls. E.g. none of our cars here have the wiring harness issue because they have all been replaced. Then again, where else in the world are p-cars sold with US$60-80k margins? <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
It is interesting to note that you feel that Ferrari's cannot be daily drivers. This is the precise reason why I didn't buy one and ended up with a 993 instead.
I had always spent my car fantasy time growing up dreaming of Ferraris. In the middle of last year, I started shopping round for a 'fun' car as our second car which I would use for the daily commute to work and back. Naturally, I went to look at Ferraris but with annual servicing cost expected to be around 100-150% more than that of a 993 and the additional down time to boot, I soon refocused and thanks in part to the input of this board, I am also one of those who jump out of bed in the morning (sometimes at the crack of dawn to take the long route and an extra 2 hours
) to drive to work and do the same at the end of a work day.There will always be the possibility of uncertainty and bad experiences when you buy a second hand car. Some of us will end up paying for the POs lack of care for a car. In your case, I would habour a guess that you have 'renewed' much of the car and thus would be able to enjoy relatively trouble free motoring over the next 6-12 months. If you do have a series of things that need to be done, why don't you get it all done in one go and then enjoy a good long spell of trouble free motoring?
I agree that there seems to be a slighty over-sentitive view of the 'troubles of 95 cars' on this board. We certainly do not have these issues here in Singapore but this could in part be due to the extensive work done by our sole authorised dealer when it comes to service buletins and product recalls. E.g. none of our cars here have the wiring harness issue because they have all been replaced. Then again, where else in the world are p-cars sold with US$60-80k margins? <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
04-11-2002, 11:54 PM
#33
POACB
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I've been absolutely thrashing my car every day, in all weather (even snow) for more than two years trying to break something.
No luck so far, but will keep trying. Hopefully then I'll be able to post something interesting.
Luckily I have been able to add a few stone chips and destroyed some premium rubber in the process.
God I love my car.
--Paul--
'97 Carrera
'02 CBR600 F4i
No luck so far, but will keep trying. Hopefully then I'll be able to post something interesting.
Luckily I have been able to add a few stone chips and destroyed some premium rubber in the process.
God I love my car.
--Paul--
'97 Carrera
'02 CBR600 F4i
04-12-2002, 12:58 AM
#34
Three Wheelin'
If I didn't "get that loving feeling" about my car everytime I see/drive/wash it...I would be very unhappy about having in my garage for what it costs. I'm not sure what I'd do, but I'd do something...probably get rid of it and get another one!
04-12-2002, 02:51 AM
#35
Three Wheelin'
I've had an '81 911SC since '94, which has been totally reliable (now has 67,000 miles). Until I joined rennlist, I was under the impression that the 993 (including the '95) was very reliable and durable, although not cheap to maintain. It has become quite difficult to avoid getting the opposite impression from reading this board. When I first read about the wiring harness issue and looked at the old threads on the topic, it seemed like it would be only a matter of time (and not much time) before the harness would burn my car to the ground, unless I replaced it first.
I have recently spoken to a number of dealers and independent Porsche shops I know well and trust. They still say what I'd heard before -- 993s are very reliable in general (including the '95), but not cheap to maintain.
My car is a late '95 (May '95 build). I bought it in March of 2000 at 34,000 miles from a Porsche dealer, through the certified used car program. I didn't do a seperate PPI because the certified used car thing includes is fairly thorough, and it includes a 1 year warranty. I learned that the clutch was bad within the first week of ownership -- it slipped the first time I shifted very quickly at redline from 1st to 2nd gear. I attribute the clutch wear to the previous owner and/or the type of driving he did (I have 260,000 miles so far on the original clutch in my '83 Saab Turbo). The dealer immediately offered to pay for the part and give me a discount on the labor. It turned out that the rear main seal had a TINY leak, which was covered by the warranty. Since the labor was virtually the same labor as changing the clutch, the new clutch and rear main seal cost me nothing -- good dealer. The mileage is now 45,000 and the car has been perfect until very recently; I may need a new mass airflow sensor (see my recent post) -- approx $400 installed according to the dealer. This would be my first non-routine out-of-pocket repair expense -- not too shabby for two years of great fun in a now 7 year-old car. I have tracked it twice and plan many more.
Have you seen the post about the approx. 285,000 993? I wish I could read French so I could read the article. I think these cars are very durable in general, based on most sources other than rennlist. By the way, I believe there recently was a J.D. Power report on the reliability of '95 model cars, and the 993 was second best, behind a Lexus.
Sean, I too considered the Boxster when I was shopping, but I bought my 993 instead and haven't regretted it for a second (though I haven't had your negative experiences). I'd love a Boxster, but only in addition to the 993.
993 -- there is no substitute.
I have recently spoken to a number of dealers and independent Porsche shops I know well and trust. They still say what I'd heard before -- 993s are very reliable in general (including the '95), but not cheap to maintain.
My car is a late '95 (May '95 build). I bought it in March of 2000 at 34,000 miles from a Porsche dealer, through the certified used car program. I didn't do a seperate PPI because the certified used car thing includes is fairly thorough, and it includes a 1 year warranty. I learned that the clutch was bad within the first week of ownership -- it slipped the first time I shifted very quickly at redline from 1st to 2nd gear. I attribute the clutch wear to the previous owner and/or the type of driving he did (I have 260,000 miles so far on the original clutch in my '83 Saab Turbo). The dealer immediately offered to pay for the part and give me a discount on the labor. It turned out that the rear main seal had a TINY leak, which was covered by the warranty. Since the labor was virtually the same labor as changing the clutch, the new clutch and rear main seal cost me nothing -- good dealer. The mileage is now 45,000 and the car has been perfect until very recently; I may need a new mass airflow sensor (see my recent post) -- approx $400 installed according to the dealer. This would be my first non-routine out-of-pocket repair expense -- not too shabby for two years of great fun in a now 7 year-old car. I have tracked it twice and plan many more.
Have you seen the post about the approx. 285,000 993? I wish I could read French so I could read the article. I think these cars are very durable in general, based on most sources other than rennlist. By the way, I believe there recently was a J.D. Power report on the reliability of '95 model cars, and the 993 was second best, behind a Lexus.
Sean, I too considered the Boxster when I was shopping, but I bought my 993 instead and haven't regretted it for a second (though I haven't had your negative experiences). I'd love a Boxster, but only in addition to the 993.
993 -- there is no substitute.
04-12-2002, 05:26 AM
#36
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Sean,
Why dont you get the guys to help you with whatevers necessary at the moment, and maybe for this year. That will reduce some costs, time and individual effort
If you still find that theres additional problems during the rest of the year, then reconsider again, and maybe let it go, knowing that you tried.
It maybe a better bet than to have spent all that $$$ on the car and expenses in the first place, sell the car at a loss, plus a bigger loss due to the expenses. Then to buy the boxster, and knowing you'll make a significant loss on that too when you want another 911.
Especially at a time when youre moving home...
Regards
Why dont you get the guys to help you with whatevers necessary at the moment, and maybe for this year. That will reduce some costs, time and individual effort
If you still find that theres additional problems during the rest of the year, then reconsider again, and maybe let it go, knowing that you tried.
It maybe a better bet than to have spent all that $$$ on the car and expenses in the first place, sell the car at a loss, plus a bigger loss due to the expenses. Then to buy the boxster, and knowing you'll make a significant loss on that too when you want another 911.
Especially at a time when youre moving home...
Regards
04-12-2002, 07:00 AM
#37
Sean
I have had a fast readthru of the replies so far - and I apologise if I am duplicating someone else's point.
I have a 964 and have owned it for about 7 months. In that time I have spent £1925 in maintenance although halft that was expected as I purchased the car knowing I needed a new clutch. I could have purchased a brand new Golf GTI for the same money that I used to buy the 964. By now, I would have lost the same £2k through depreciation. In 3 years time the Golf will have lost about £8k in value - I MAY spend that much on the 964 but I am having a lot more fun for my money.
If you lease a Boxter at $399 a month, then you will be paying out $4800 over the next year - and that's just dead money.
I think if you really don't trust your current car and it is constantly off the road depriving you of the main reward of ownership then maybe it's time to consider your options. If it is just the money (sounds crap but there it is) then you will be throwing away similar or greater amounts of money on buying new cars or leasing.
My humble opinion - hope it helps.
Christer
I have had a fast readthru of the replies so far - and I apologise if I am duplicating someone else's point.
I have a 964 and have owned it for about 7 months. In that time I have spent £1925 in maintenance although halft that was expected as I purchased the car knowing I needed a new clutch. I could have purchased a brand new Golf GTI for the same money that I used to buy the 964. By now, I would have lost the same £2k through depreciation. In 3 years time the Golf will have lost about £8k in value - I MAY spend that much on the 964 but I am having a lot more fun for my money.
If you lease a Boxter at $399 a month, then you will be paying out $4800 over the next year - and that's just dead money.
I think if you really don't trust your current car and it is constantly off the road depriving you of the main reward of ownership then maybe it's time to consider your options. If it is just the money (sounds crap but there it is) then you will be throwing away similar or greater amounts of money on buying new cars or leasing.
My humble opinion - hope it helps.
Christer
04-12-2002, 07:12 AM
#38
Incidentally - as a 964 owner I can identify with the 95 brigade here who are getting caned on the reliability issues. The same thing I am sure you know has been going on about the 964. Yes, there was some truth to certain issues like the DMF and oil leaks, but it really wasn't as bad as it was made out to be. We frequently have proespctive owners come on to the 964 board asking 'should I avoid the pre 91 964's due to this and that problem. It is now widely recognised that the problems are highly exaggerated.
Hopefully, with time the early 993's will be treated more 'fairly' as the 964's are now.
Christer
Hopefully, with time the early 993's will be treated more 'fairly' as the 964's are now.
Christer
04-12-2002, 08:36 AM
#39
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Sounds like stating the obvious, but the number of people I know who've spent small fortunes on cars, then sold them because they've had enough - only to realise (to the benefit of the buyer) that they've given away a virtually rebuilt car!
Often happens when the pain gets too much - maybe the problems are just about to be over...
Had my 95 993 for over 2 years, only a regular service and a new steering rack has been needed - the car has done 15k miles in the 2 years, now at 60k. The OPC who last serviced it could find nothing more than corroding alloy wheel nuts to list in the "work to do category". I drive it as hard and as often as I can.
When I bought it, i did think i "overpaid" by around £4,000 compared to the "cheapest" 993s on the market at the time - maybe i just saved myself some remedial work at the time?
Often happens when the pain gets too much - maybe the problems are just about to be over...
Had my 95 993 for over 2 years, only a regular service and a new steering rack has been needed - the car has done 15k miles in the 2 years, now at 60k. The OPC who last serviced it could find nothing more than corroding alloy wheel nuts to list in the "work to do category". I drive it as hard and as often as I can.
When I bought it, i did think i "overpaid" by around £4,000 compared to the "cheapest" 993s on the market at the time - maybe i just saved myself some remedial work at the time?
04-12-2002, 08:56 AM
#40
King of Cool
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[quote]Originally posted by E. J.:
<strong>I say BS to the 95s having more problems than other models.
E. J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree, there's not much thruth there and besides, what's so much different (except wiring, varioran & steering rack) with -95 & never cars anyway?
I think some of these 'problems' people are talking here are something that would be fine but they replace or fix them because someone (mechanic) says so. I mean, when someone says, for example, your clutch is failing, they'll go & change it, when in fact they propably could drive another 30k with it.
<strong>I say BS to the 95s having more problems than other models.
E. J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree, there's not much thruth there and besides, what's so much different (except wiring, varioran & steering rack) with -95 & never cars anyway?
I think some of these 'problems' people are talking here are something that would be fine but they replace or fix them because someone (mechanic) says so. I mean, when someone says, for example, your clutch is failing, they'll go & change it, when in fact they propably could drive another 30k with it.
04-12-2002, 10:56 AM
#41
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Holy Canoli !! I had no idea this was going to touch such a nerve....it's been very interesting reading through everyone's posts. Thank You.
Yesterday was my Birthday. The significant other and I went out for a nice evening on the town and among other things we talked a bit about what to do with the p-car. (Mind you, this is a lady who really didn't car much for the car when I bought it, and still would prefer to take the X-terra if given a choice) When I brought up the prospect of selling the 993, the answer was a flat out - "Your out of your mind !" Seems that though she's grown to love the car as much as I do, and isn't about to part with it because of some expensive maintainence. In fact, she laid the sass on pretty thick - "You've got degree's in Mechanical Engineering from Duke & Stanford - for all the $$ you spent on learning about engines, you'd think a little routine maintaince wouldn't spook you." and "I thought one of the reasons we bought this car was because it was simpler than most - less to go wrong, and easier to fix when it does"
You gotta admit, it's pretty hard arguing with that kind of logic. (Especially when you *did* say that
)
Incidentally, I'm can't even repeat in print what she said when I suggested a boxster replacement...
So I've made up my mind - the car stays. And I'm going to make it a mission to put all that education to good use. Heck, if I get good, then maybe I can go work at a dealer...and get a raise!
Thanks again everyone. It's amazing how insightful everyones comments have been. Long live rennlist !
cheers,
sean
Yesterday was my Birthday. The significant other and I went out for a nice evening on the town and among other things we talked a bit about what to do with the p-car. (Mind you, this is a lady who really didn't car much for the car when I bought it, and still would prefer to take the X-terra if given a choice) When I brought up the prospect of selling the 993, the answer was a flat out - "Your out of your mind !" Seems that though she's grown to love the car as much as I do, and isn't about to part with it because of some expensive maintainence. In fact, she laid the sass on pretty thick - "You've got degree's in Mechanical Engineering from Duke & Stanford - for all the $$ you spent on learning about engines, you'd think a little routine maintaince wouldn't spook you." and "I thought one of the reasons we bought this car was because it was simpler than most - less to go wrong, and easier to fix when it does"
You gotta admit, it's pretty hard arguing with that kind of logic. (Especially when you *did* say that
)Incidentally, I'm can't even repeat in print what she said when I suggested a boxster replacement...
So I've made up my mind - the car stays. And I'm going to make it a mission to put all that education to good use. Heck, if I get good, then maybe I can go work at a dealer...and get a raise!
Thanks again everyone. It's amazing how insightful everyones comments have been. Long live rennlist !
cheers,
sean
04-12-2002, 11:09 AM
#42
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[quote]Originally posted by E. J.:
<strong>***snip***
And I really get pissed off lately when people try to convince me that the 95 car has all sorts of problems. It's just crap. Lets look where the high mileage 97s are in 2 years - probably the same place our 95s are today.
***snip***
I say BS to the 95s having more problems than other models.
E. J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Like Christer has already said, you think you've got it bad, try owning an early 964.
A few early model bugs--not entirely without basis, but update-able to "993 standard" and certainly exaggerated--and the car takes on a reputation as being the second coming of the 75-77 911S.
Interesting you should mention "Lets look where the high mileage 97s are in 2 years." I've thought similarly when I read of early 964s being bashed for oil leaks, etc.
Another thought. If reliability is being measured by "did the car strand me," well, my 964 has only left me stranded once in nearly 10 years. That would be when I had that little hiccup = spun rod bearing.
E.J. ... how many miles are you up to now? Are you planning on passing me soon? I'm at 114,400 miles ...
<img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
<strong>***snip***
And I really get pissed off lately when people try to convince me that the 95 car has all sorts of problems. It's just crap. Lets look where the high mileage 97s are in 2 years - probably the same place our 95s are today.
***snip***
I say BS to the 95s having more problems than other models.
E. J.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Like Christer has already said, you think you've got it bad, try owning an early 964.
A few early model bugs--not entirely without basis, but update-able to "993 standard" and certainly exaggerated--and the car takes on a reputation as being the second coming of the 75-77 911S. Interesting you should mention "Lets look where the high mileage 97s are in 2 years." I've thought similarly when I read of early 964s being bashed for oil leaks, etc.
Another thought. If reliability is being measured by "did the car strand me," well, my 964 has only left me stranded once in nearly 10 years. That would be when I had that little hiccup = spun rod bearing.
E.J. ... how many miles are you up to now? Are you planning on passing me soon? I'm at 114,400 miles ...
<img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />
04-12-2002, 12:50 PM
#43
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Sean,
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> on your decision!!!!
Long live the 993!!! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
<img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> on your decision!!!!
Long live the 993!!! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
04-12-2002, 12:57 PM
#44
I agree with all the comments about the ‘95’s having an undeserved reputation. Disclaimer: I own one. The only problem I’ve had that directly relates to the ’95 model year was the wiring harness. I’ve had some other problems, some generic to all 993’s, like the windshield squeak and the hanging clutch pedal. I’ve had some oil leaks (valve cover gaskets, timing chain cover), but these are generic to all 911’s. Most important are some of the problems I have NOT had. I have not had my rear window explode (oh wait, this was ’96 on, not 95’s). I also have no problems with my switchblade remote (oh yeah, I don’t have one, they appeared in ’96). I have never had to deal with a car that won’t start due to the drive block system, or one that locks automatically, or being locked out of my own car because my remote battery died (again, ’96 on). The valves in my varioram have never become choked with carbon and required an expensive cleaning, but this is probably because I don’t have varioram. Interesting, fixing my wiring harness was a one time thing, but dealing with the switchblade remote/drive block system is an ongoing, day to day issue. Likewise on the varioram; it seems it will need an expensive cleaning job on a regular basis. I seem to recall there were other problems unique to the ‘96+ cars, anyone care to contribute to this list?
Tom
’95 993 with 57,000 miles
Tom
’95 993 with 57,000 miles
