Ticket for 110 MPH. Any ideas?
10-22-2003, 11:57 PM
#46
Drifting
Coincidentaly i caught part of an hour long show about the autobahn on history channel today. It had great footage of Alois Ruf driving a yellow porsche from his shop. The digital readout read 212 at the highest. Although i may or may not have the stones to do that, he did not have a reckless crazed look about him.
The autobahn has a death rate of .74 deaths per million vehicle miles while the us interstate system's is .82. They attribute this to the construction of the high performance german autos namely porsche and crew which are designed with those speeds in mind and attentive drivers. I konw that when i drive my shark i do so with total concentration and it is fun. Any body give me a spellcheck?
Tom
1985 928s2 euro
The autobahn has a death rate of .74 deaths per million vehicle miles while the us interstate system's is .82. They attribute this to the construction of the high performance german autos namely porsche and crew which are designed with those speeds in mind and attentive drivers. I konw that when i drive my shark i do so with total concentration and it is fun. Any body give me a spellcheck?
Tom
1985 928s2 euro
10-23-2003, 04:38 AM
#48
928 Barrister
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
limits
OK, I gots to enter the fracus.
tv is right. Period.
The truth is that 8% of all accidents in America the beautiful occur above 60 mph. All the rest occur below that speed. As the speed limit INCREASES, the accident rate DECREASES. I'll pause while that sinks in..........As you must know, before a speed limit may be set on a roadway created or maintained by federal funds, an engineering study must first be performed.
Not a speed survey, an engineering study. Part of the engineering study includes unnoticed survey of the 85th percentile speed of free flowing traffic. That translates to the speed unmolested traffic would travel without fear of arrest or obstruction. The principle is how comfortable drivers feel about the speed at which they travel on that roadway. As drivers get more experienced and cars become more capable and agile, speeds can be expected to increase. Trust people to observe potential hazards such as cross traffic, driveways, road conditions and visibility, by adjusting their speed accordingly without coercion or warning signs. Then the speeds, after a survey and analysis of past accidents on that roadway, and other engineering exercises, are set 5 MPH HIGHER unless special circumstances dictate setting them below that speed. Now I didn't say that the speed limits in existence are set that way, only that they are required to be so set. The fact is that many are not. For instance, for the entire state of Oregon not a single rural highway has an engineering study to support the speed limit; they are set arbitrarily. Yes, the authorities are BREAKING the LAW, but so what? Yes, the roads may be less safe as a result, but so what? They are also ignoring sound engineering practices, but so what? Believe me when I say the jurisdictions know exactly what they are doing. They also know what you will be doing while driving on these roads. There are several speed traps in the San Francisco Bay Area that take in at least $20,000 per month in speed violation fines.
Now think about the reasoning of the ENGINEERS, (NOT the police or the courts). The traffic should flow smoothly and comfortably, not be constricted or compromised by either obstructions or ATTITUDE. One obstruction is a person who self righteously pokes along at or below the posted limit in the fast lane clogging free flowing traffic. (Exception: state of Texas where they respect the left lane). Another obstruction is a person who drives an inferior vehicle in a manner beyond that vehicle's ability. Then there is ATTITUDE: tv mentioned his hightened state of awareness as he consciously evaluated his increasing rate of speed. A person who plods along at or below the posted limit thinking he (or those around him) is safe because he is observing the limit regardless of his ability, or his car's ability or the conditions, has an attitude that compromises his limits of performance. He has relinquished partial responsibility for his performance to outside factors. He may even be so self assured he is probably dreaming to himself about how his car "hugs the road" rather than remain awake and alert to what is happening around him. Anyone who has seen the Fazcination video of Ruf's test driver on the 'ring in the Yellow Bird knows that is the exact opposite of the driver I have just described. These are examples of what impede free flowing traffic and increase frustration, even unconscious frustration, counter to the intent of the engineers who design the roads. What do you expect the result to be? Safer travel? Less accidents? Less violations? Hardly. Higher insurance rates? YES. More "mistakes" due to half awake attention spans? YES. More alert and competent drivers? I doubt it. The speeds on the autobahn are higher or unlimited in certain areas and the death rate is lower??? Does it take a bump on the head to realize that people there pay attention more as they drive faster and with better cars?? Duh!!! Does it take another bump on the head to realize that there are those who I dare say criminally plot to create conditions contrary to sound engineering priciples with full knowledge that safety and efficiency will be compromised??
Mr. Lincoln, you need an enema.
tv is right. Period.
The truth is that 8% of all accidents in America the beautiful occur above 60 mph. All the rest occur below that speed. As the speed limit INCREASES, the accident rate DECREASES. I'll pause while that sinks in..........As you must know, before a speed limit may be set on a roadway created or maintained by federal funds, an engineering study must first be performed.
Not a speed survey, an engineering study. Part of the engineering study includes unnoticed survey of the 85th percentile speed of free flowing traffic. That translates to the speed unmolested traffic would travel without fear of arrest or obstruction. The principle is how comfortable drivers feel about the speed at which they travel on that roadway. As drivers get more experienced and cars become more capable and agile, speeds can be expected to increase. Trust people to observe potential hazards such as cross traffic, driveways, road conditions and visibility, by adjusting their speed accordingly without coercion or warning signs. Then the speeds, after a survey and analysis of past accidents on that roadway, and other engineering exercises, are set 5 MPH HIGHER unless special circumstances dictate setting them below that speed. Now I didn't say that the speed limits in existence are set that way, only that they are required to be so set. The fact is that many are not. For instance, for the entire state of Oregon not a single rural highway has an engineering study to support the speed limit; they are set arbitrarily. Yes, the authorities are BREAKING the LAW, but so what? Yes, the roads may be less safe as a result, but so what? They are also ignoring sound engineering practices, but so what? Believe me when I say the jurisdictions know exactly what they are doing. They also know what you will be doing while driving on these roads. There are several speed traps in the San Francisco Bay Area that take in at least $20,000 per month in speed violation fines.
Now think about the reasoning of the ENGINEERS, (NOT the police or the courts). The traffic should flow smoothly and comfortably, not be constricted or compromised by either obstructions or ATTITUDE. One obstruction is a person who self righteously pokes along at or below the posted limit in the fast lane clogging free flowing traffic. (Exception: state of Texas where they respect the left lane). Another obstruction is a person who drives an inferior vehicle in a manner beyond that vehicle's ability. Then there is ATTITUDE: tv mentioned his hightened state of awareness as he consciously evaluated his increasing rate of speed. A person who plods along at or below the posted limit thinking he (or those around him) is safe because he is observing the limit regardless of his ability, or his car's ability or the conditions, has an attitude that compromises his limits of performance. He has relinquished partial responsibility for his performance to outside factors. He may even be so self assured he is probably dreaming to himself about how his car "hugs the road" rather than remain awake and alert to what is happening around him. Anyone who has seen the Fazcination video of Ruf's test driver on the 'ring in the Yellow Bird knows that is the exact opposite of the driver I have just described. These are examples of what impede free flowing traffic and increase frustration, even unconscious frustration, counter to the intent of the engineers who design the roads. What do you expect the result to be? Safer travel? Less accidents? Less violations? Hardly. Higher insurance rates? YES. More "mistakes" due to half awake attention spans? YES. More alert and competent drivers? I doubt it. The speeds on the autobahn are higher or unlimited in certain areas and the death rate is lower??? Does it take a bump on the head to realize that people there pay attention more as they drive faster and with better cars?? Duh!!! Does it take another bump on the head to realize that there are those who I dare say criminally plot to create conditions contrary to sound engineering priciples with full knowledge that safety and efficiency will be compromised??
Mr. Lincoln, you need an enema.
10-23-2003, 06:17 AM
#49
Drifting
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: la la land | comin' back soon nyc
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I don't need an enema... i think.
sorry guys...
as i stated earlier in the thread... i have exceeded the posted speed limit... (more than once) & in some cases have been lucky to have not been stung.
personally though, for the record, i take full responsibility for my actions in my car as i do when i operate a table saw or shoot my AK at the gun club. hell! i even take full responsibility for my actions when i pick up a beer or sip/shoot teq. while i'm sitting next to a hot girl.--------> it's called being an adult!--------> & along w/ being an adult comes the infamous line, "if you do the crime, you do the time.
let's not forget our fellow rennlister was just asking for some ideas on how to trouble shoot a ticket. he didn't hit anyone... wasn't drunk etc ... & didn't **** in our sushi rice either.
"can't we all just get along"
rich
--maybe the dr. has never exceeded the speed limit but i'm not gonna act like a virgin in that department---------> "pride before a fall"
as i stated earlier in the thread... i have exceeded the posted speed limit... (more than once) & in some cases have been lucky to have not been stung.
personally though, for the record, i take full responsibility for my actions in my car as i do when i operate a table saw or shoot my AK at the gun club. hell! i even take full responsibility for my actions when i pick up a beer or sip/shoot teq. while i'm sitting next to a hot girl.--------> it's called being an adult!--------> & along w/ being an adult comes the infamous line, "if you do the crime, you do the time.
let's not forget our fellow rennlister was just asking for some ideas on how to trouble shoot a ticket. he didn't hit anyone... wasn't drunk etc ... & didn't **** in our sushi rice either.
"can't we all just get along"
rich
--maybe the dr. has never exceeded the speed limit but i'm not gonna act like a virgin in that department---------> "pride before a fall"
10-23-2003, 06:33 AM
#50
Drifting
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: la la land | comin' back soon nyc
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BTW.... almost forgot>
had a friend who was working on the porsche n.a. account (advertising) who got a ticket in germany... was in a group of about 12 p-cars when he got a speeding ticket. he said the officers drove a BMW & wore jeans & he paid his ticket on the spot w/ his credit card!
if true... i thought it was cool.
(sorry- slightly ot)
----but it's still octoberfest.
if true... i thought it was cool.
(sorry- slightly ot)
----but it's still octoberfest.
10-23-2003, 10:09 AM
#51
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Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally posted by tv
Coincidentaly i caught part of an hour long show about the autobahn on history channel today. It had great footage of Alois Ruf driving a yellow porsche from his shop. The digital readout read 212 at the highest. Although i may or may not have the stones to do that, he did not have a reckless crazed look about him.
The autobahn has a death rate of .74 deaths per million vehicle miles while the us interstate system's is .82. They attribute this to the construction of the high performance german autos namely porsche and crew which are designed with those speeds in mind and attentive drivers. I konw that when i drive my shark i do so with total concentration and it is fun. Any body give me a spellcheck?
Tom
1985 928s2 euro
Coincidentaly i caught part of an hour long show about the autobahn on history channel today. It had great footage of Alois Ruf driving a yellow porsche from his shop. The digital readout read 212 at the highest. Although i may or may not have the stones to do that, he did not have a reckless crazed look about him.
The autobahn has a death rate of .74 deaths per million vehicle miles while the us interstate system's is .82. They attribute this to the construction of the high performance german autos namely porsche and crew which are designed with those speeds in mind and attentive drivers. I konw that when i drive my shark i do so with total concentration and it is fun. Any body give me a spellcheck?
Tom
1985 928s2 euro
10-23-2003, 12:20 PM
#52
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Apr 2003
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IMHO, there are three arguments going on here:
1) Do higher speeds cause higher fatalities/accidents?
2) Do higher speeds equate to higher probabilities of accidents?
3) What is a reasonable legal speed?
For (1), based on laws of physics, most likely, as the good doctor has attested. I've also read of a high # of fatalities due to lack of seatbelt wear. Definitely one for the Darwinian awards. Those guys get little sympathy for me.
But in order for (1) to occur, (2) has to be one of the potential causes. Ron provided data to counter (2) based on the assumption that with higher speeds come higher levels of alertness. But, there may be a statistical bias that has to be adjusted for, namely that probably 90% of driving is done at speeds lower than 60mph (just a wild guess), consequently, it's only natural that more accidents will happen at that lower speed. Same rationale for why most accidents happen near home since that's where we spent most time driving. As they say, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics! Personally, I think the data may be inconclusive although I would like to think that higher speeds does induce higher levels of alertness resulting in lower avoidable accidents (it doesn't help if someone pulls a damn *** move in front of you at 100mph!) One of the scariest rides I had in my life was actually being a passenger in that was driven below the speed limit by a completely clueless driver.
As for (3), the law is often imposed based on the lowest common denominator. Why 65mph, not 100mph? Because many may not be able to handle the elevated speeds, or at least their car won't (have you ever driven a Saturn SL1 above 80mph? Damn scary!) Also, it's always the speed differential, and not absolute speed, that is most dangerous. A higher speed limit would theoretically create a wider distribution curve. However, one could also argue that a higher limit might keep the distribution curve and standard deviation the same, merely shifting the mean and median upwards which is probably what the Autobahn represents. The paradox of the American society is that it is one that always preaches personal independence, responsibility as an adult, etc. and then sues McDonalds for making the coffee too hot or the fast food companies because they got obese. You can't have both. My experience in Germany on the Autobahn showed that although the Porsches, etc. had free reign in the unrestricted portion of the autobahn, *everyone* slowed down to the posted speed limit as they approached the exit/entry zone.
1) Do higher speeds cause higher fatalities/accidents?
2) Do higher speeds equate to higher probabilities of accidents?
3) What is a reasonable legal speed?
For (1), based on laws of physics, most likely, as the good doctor has attested. I've also read of a high # of fatalities due to lack of seatbelt wear. Definitely one for the Darwinian awards. Those guys get little sympathy for me.
But in order for (1) to occur, (2) has to be one of the potential causes. Ron provided data to counter (2) based on the assumption that with higher speeds come higher levels of alertness. But, there may be a statistical bias that has to be adjusted for, namely that probably 90% of driving is done at speeds lower than 60mph (just a wild guess), consequently, it's only natural that more accidents will happen at that lower speed. Same rationale for why most accidents happen near home since that's where we spent most time driving. As they say, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics! Personally, I think the data may be inconclusive although I would like to think that higher speeds does induce higher levels of alertness resulting in lower avoidable accidents (it doesn't help if someone pulls a damn *** move in front of you at 100mph!) One of the scariest rides I had in my life was actually being a passenger in that was driven below the speed limit by a completely clueless driver.
As for (3), the law is often imposed based on the lowest common denominator. Why 65mph, not 100mph? Because many may not be able to handle the elevated speeds, or at least their car won't (have you ever driven a Saturn SL1 above 80mph? Damn scary!) Also, it's always the speed differential, and not absolute speed, that is most dangerous. A higher speed limit would theoretically create a wider distribution curve. However, one could also argue that a higher limit might keep the distribution curve and standard deviation the same, merely shifting the mean and median upwards which is probably what the Autobahn represents. The paradox of the American society is that it is one that always preaches personal independence, responsibility as an adult, etc. and then sues McDonalds for making the coffee too hot or the fast food companies because they got obese. You can't have both. My experience in Germany on the Autobahn showed that although the Porsches, etc. had free reign in the unrestricted portion of the autobahn, *everyone* slowed down to the posted speed limit as they approached the exit/entry zone.
10-23-2003, 05:46 PM
#53
928 Barrister
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Rezal:
Precisely my point about more accidents happening closer to home is the assumed level of safety by the driver because of perceived familiarity with surroundings, leading to a relaxed state of awareness. An accident could occur on a freeway within 1 mile of your home because you "know that road and drive it all the time" within or without the speed limit. Complacency....ugh!! And I doubt with the excellent freeway system that we have in place more people spend more time driving at slower speeds. If anything, speeds are increasing and the no. of miles at higher speeds is increasing. And cars are getting better designed and more capable at higher speeds; including less respected makes. So drivers are more comfortable about driving at higher speeds. And the "authorities" know this fact and are cashing in. A highway patrol officer asserts that driving my 911 or 928 above 70 mph is inherently dangerous and hazardous, while he in his monster cruiser works traffic at an average speed of 80 mph moving in and out of each lane back and forth across the freeways for mile after mile in relatively heavy traffic. Absurd on its face! And an insult to my intelligence. Give me a break. I guess I need plastic surgery to change my appearance from that of a moron to what resembles a more intelligent being.
Taking responsibility means not assuming adherence to the speed limit will protect you. Nor will inadequately prepared engineering surveys. Nor will a great car driven foolishly. Only you can prevent forest fires.
The truth is that many speed limits are not set scientifically, but arbitrarily. And to produce revenue not promote safety. The claim that slower speeds will promote safety is erroneous. All things are relative. What promotes safety is responsibility for your actions and knowledge of your (and others') limits, as well as an awareness of what is happening around you at all times. Italy recently raised their speed limits because statistics showed a decrease in fatalities and accidents with higher limits.
When I was driving a Volkswagen bug in Germany, I stayed in the right lane. And the Saturn should also. And the licensing laws should become extremely more demanding. Speed doesn't kill....inadequately handling a particular speed may. Speed is relative. Particularly in a machine designed to be operated at that speed. As Ayn Rand said: Live according to "the best within us", not the lowest common denominator. If you want safety guaranteed, stay home in bed in your diaper and atrophy while you worry about choking on your baby rattle.
Whew !!
Precisely my point about more accidents happening closer to home is the assumed level of safety by the driver because of perceived familiarity with surroundings, leading to a relaxed state of awareness. An accident could occur on a freeway within 1 mile of your home because you "know that road and drive it all the time" within or without the speed limit. Complacency....ugh!! And I doubt with the excellent freeway system that we have in place more people spend more time driving at slower speeds. If anything, speeds are increasing and the no. of miles at higher speeds is increasing. And cars are getting better designed and more capable at higher speeds; including less respected makes. So drivers are more comfortable about driving at higher speeds. And the "authorities" know this fact and are cashing in. A highway patrol officer asserts that driving my 911 or 928 above 70 mph is inherently dangerous and hazardous, while he in his monster cruiser works traffic at an average speed of 80 mph moving in and out of each lane back and forth across the freeways for mile after mile in relatively heavy traffic. Absurd on its face! And an insult to my intelligence. Give me a break. I guess I need plastic surgery to change my appearance from that of a moron to what resembles a more intelligent being.
Taking responsibility means not assuming adherence to the speed limit will protect you. Nor will inadequately prepared engineering surveys. Nor will a great car driven foolishly. Only you can prevent forest fires.
The truth is that many speed limits are not set scientifically, but arbitrarily. And to produce revenue not promote safety. The claim that slower speeds will promote safety is erroneous. All things are relative. What promotes safety is responsibility for your actions and knowledge of your (and others') limits, as well as an awareness of what is happening around you at all times. Italy recently raised their speed limits because statistics showed a decrease in fatalities and accidents with higher limits.
When I was driving a Volkswagen bug in Germany, I stayed in the right lane. And the Saturn should also. And the licensing laws should become extremely more demanding. Speed doesn't kill....inadequately handling a particular speed may. Speed is relative. Particularly in a machine designed to be operated at that speed. As Ayn Rand said: Live according to "the best within us", not the lowest common denominator. If you want safety guaranteed, stay home in bed in your diaper and atrophy while you worry about choking on your baby rattle.
Whew !!
10-23-2003, 07:35 PM
#54
Originally posted by Ron_H
Precisely my point about more accidents happening closer to home is the assumed level of safety by the driver because of perceived familiarity with surroundings, leading to a relaxed state of awareness. An accident could occur on a freeway within 1 mile of your home because you "know that road and drive it all the time" within or without the speed limit.
Precisely my point about more accidents happening closer to home is the assumed level of safety by the driver because of perceived familiarity with surroundings, leading to a relaxed state of awareness. An accident could occur on a freeway within 1 mile of your home because you "know that road and drive it all the time" within or without the speed limit.
But I think you are stretching a bit here to make your point. I think a dispassionate review of why most accidents happen within 5 miles of home is simply because most driving occurs within 5 miles of home. Every time you get in your car, you drive within 5 miles of home, even if you continue on further.
I think the reason that some medical professionals , including our beloved Dr. Lincoln, tend to focus on speeding is that most of the more traumatic accidents they have had to work on included excessive speed, simply because the faster you go when you hit something, the more the mushy bits get splattered around. So they confuse causality with contributing factors.
So the safest thing you can do every time you get in your car is have the highest level of attentiveness of your surroundings. A key component of that attentiveness is to always understand and use "safety margins", which are a constant real-time plot of escape routes, alternate paths, and contingencies for any situation that might occur. This allows accident avoidance, which beats accident survivability any day.
Be aware however, that excessive speed differentials caused by speeding in traffic limit dramatically decrease those all-important safety margins, and also increases the likelihood that an impact will cause trauma. After all, speed doesn't kill, it's the sudden stop.
10-23-2003, 08:42 PM
#57
928 Barrister
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
PeterS:
I suspect you and I have shared the road on Hwy 9 and 35 a couple of times and at speeds that had me thinking more than once about "escape routes" along the BIG TREE lined roads; particularly coming into Boulder Creek with blind driveways. I specifically remember your car because of the great Kenesis wheels which I want for my 928.
Dan:
Far Out!! (guess that dates me, eh?)
I suspect you and I have shared the road on Hwy 9 and 35 a couple of times and at speeds that had me thinking more than once about "escape routes" along the BIG TREE lined roads; particularly coming into Boulder Creek with blind driveways. I specifically remember your car because of the great Kenesis wheels which I want for my 928.
Dan:
Far Out!! (guess that dates me, eh?)
10-23-2003, 09:40 PM
#58
Originally posted by Ron_H
PeterS:
I suspect you and I have shared the road on Hwy 9 and 35 a couple of times and at speeds that had me thinking more than once about "escape routes" along the BIG TREE lined roads; particularly coming into Boulder Creek with blind driveways. I specifically remember your car because of the great Kenesis wheels which I want for my 928.
PeterS:
I suspect you and I have shared the road on Hwy 9 and 35 a couple of times and at speeds that had me thinking more than once about "escape routes" along the BIG TREE lined roads; particularly coming into Boulder Creek with blind driveways. I specifically remember your car because of the great Kenesis wheels which I want for my 928.
10-23-2003, 10:27 PM
#59
928 Barrister
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
critters
I may need to adjust my dosage if I ever hit another deer, and they can come from behind those big trees. I totalled my Rabbit once when I was "attacked" by a deer on Hwy. 1. What a mess. Nowhere to go as he ran right INTO my headlights.
10-23-2003, 10:30 PM
#60
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Member
WARNING: THREAD HI-JACK AHEAD!
I the picture above, check out the oil temp in comparison to the oil pressure, and RPM's. I wonder what the weather conditions were and how long the engine had been running when the photo was taken?
OK, back to your regularly scheduled thread...
I the picture above, check out the oil temp in comparison to the oil pressure, and RPM's. I wonder what the weather conditions were and how long the engine had been running when the photo was taken?
OK, back to your regularly scheduled thread...