Poon

I have on order from Gert the RSR's, but recently stumbled upon this page from Fabspeeds website

http://www.fabspeed.com/993mufflers.html

I am now worried and am thinking about the Maxflos

BTW, I have the motorsound option on my 94 C2 with a Remapped ECU, I like the oval tips I already have, my other questions are as follows:

1) Would the Maxflos have a big HP advantage over the RSR's?
2) The picture on their website leads me to conclude that the Maxflos are a mufflers and tip change, can anyone clarify.

TIA

graham_mitchell

Poon, what are you concerned about exactly?

To (sort of) answer one of your questions, I don't remember seeing any dyno results anywhere for the RSRs and I have looked. If you find anything, please share. I wrote to Robin about this once and he replied that most users reported some sort of improved acceleration but he could not produce any 'significant' gains during dyno testing.

Poon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by graham_mitchell
[B]Poon, what are you concerned about exactly?

"Structural integrity inside the muffler is compromised, and will collapse internally and cause fire and melted bumpers".

plus the claim re power and performance

graham_mitchell

Of the many RSR users on Rennlist, none have reported any such physical collapse, iirc.

People generally go for the RSRs because it sounds 'just right' to them. They are probably not the highest performance muffler in the market. There is also the price difference to consider. You must choose based on your own preferences and needs

nota_troll

Hey Poon. My brother's car has B&B this and that. Didn't like the sound of it since it's too loud for my taste.

I purchased RSRs earlier this year and couldn't be happier. More recently I sold my B&B catbypass pipes to a 993power. Bypass were too loud since I sometimes take the car to church as well as the track.

Point? RSR sounds perfect for me.

David in LA

For 993s I highly doubt that any muffler change (RSRs, Maxflows, Supercups, or otherwise) will give you meaningful hp gains over stock. Any performance gains would probably do to weight savings and the perception that "louder must be faster"!

bet

Do a search.

The topic of real world HP gain from just a muffler or exhaust change in the 993 has been talked about extensively. In general the power gain is insignificant if at all. There have been some reported loss of low end torque also. Porsche did a great job of designing the exhaust system in its application for a NA 993.

The topic of the statements made by Fabspeed in their relation to RSR's and Robin have also been discussed many times. All BS.

Poon

So Guys,

Are Fabspeed "scaremongering" people in to buying Maxflos over Robins RSR's?

Mark in Hermosa

Yes. The guy is an ***. Do a search by one of his logons and you will see many of his posts deleted due to shameless and lousy advertising of his own products. There is NO reason why he needed to do that. There is also no reason why he has to cut down "competition."

Go back 4 years ago and do a search under the username "Bill996cab". He even went so far as to create a bogus user to talk about how good his products are.

NOW....that being said, I liked his supercups on my track car. I have since sold them. I didn't feel they were streetable.

993Widebody

There has been many posts on this subject. Many here don't like Joe Fab but the bottom line is that his mufflers are sweet. Robin's mufflers are a nicer sound than stock and the maxflows are even deeper and throatier without being too loud. The supercups are much louder than even the maxflows and are what I have on my car. They are great for track, and most people can't deal with them for street use. I am an exception.

In terms of power gains. The maxflows do give you about 5hp and the supercups give you 10-15 with some torque lost at lower rpms. This is not BS, this has been proven by fellow rennlisters dynoing the cars, some have even done a dyno at the crank and showed close 15hp gain for the supercups.

In terms of Robin's mufflers collapsing, or any of that BS, it is simply not true. It all comes down to sound. Do you want mufflers that give you a bit of sporty sound, a nice sports car sound, or a bad *** harley sound?

Poon

Thanks Guys,

I'll stick with the RSR's then

Mark in Baltimore

Perhaps. Fabspeed does not mention RSR's by name so, to be fair, maybe there is another person, the real "backyard hacker", out there doing similar muffler work. BTW, I have experienced Fabspeeds (not sure of the model) and think they sound great, louder than my RSR's, and look pretty.

In case the site is directed to Robin, some thoughts:

-Fabspeed's claim that "you will never be able to go back to stock OEM, ever" is simply untrue. You can easily buy a set of used mufflers on ebay.

-I've never heard of anyone on this board posting anything about fires from melted bumpers or collapsed mufflers. I have tracked my RSR-equipped 993 in 93 degree weather and my bumpers look fine. If the mufflers have failed "all over the country", I would surmise that someone on Rennlist would have made mention of it. How long have Robin's mufflers been around? I have only been on this board for less than a year but, based on the testimonials on Robin's site, it appears that he has been doing this mod since 1999. I would call that a Rennlist-certified, long-term test.

-Robin may not have a written warranty but I'm sure if I had a problem, he would take care of it. Heck, the guy ships the mufflers out to you before you've paid for it and asks you to send a check only after you're happy with the sound and finish. That's some serious trust, enough to tell me Robin is an honorable, accountable businessman who stands behind his product.

-Robin does not make any claims for power increase. Other respected and knowledgeable individuals on this board who have done dyno tests say that you shouldn't believe any optimistic figures from other manufacturers. Changes are slight, maybe 5 hp.

-The RSR's have a reputation for having excellent fit and finish and some damn pretty welds. I'm not a welder but it sure as hell looks like someone knows what they're doing. I find it hard to believe that the welder is not certified nor trained.

-Regarding lack of insurance coverage, yes, this may be a viable point for some but it is not an issue for me. I'm not sure how Fabspeed knows that Robin is uninsured.

-2" diameter tubing. I suppose there's no way around this with a stock muffler, assuming that larger diameter tubing will actually increase power and torque across the rev range.

-Fabspeed's claims that his mufflers have no resonance. When I heard my friend's mufflers, I could detect a resonance that came from the harmonics of the car and the mufflers together and perhaps not solely coming from the mufflers themselves. Again, his car sounded great but the resonance may be a bit much for some. I have a feeling the 993 has a unique shape that naturally increases resonance in the 3,000-4000 rpm range.

Poon, you should also read this current thread on Fabspeed over on the 996 board.

Having said all of that, I have actually been thinking of getting a set of louder mufflers for my mostly track driven car. I had read so many great things about the RSR's that they seemed like the perfect solution for the street. Well, now that my car is spending it's time on the track (and my ears are covered by a helmet), I would like to have something louder and have been considering Fabspeeds, although the assertions of the "mufflers exposed" page is giving me some pause.

Good luck.

993Widebody

Just to re-cap my post above. I have actually had all three muffler types on my car, so my experiences with them are first hand. Robin is a first class guy, and I have the upmost respect for him. His mufflers were first rate and felt about 1/2 the weight of the stock mufflers - to me that is a big plus. I simply felt they weren't loud enough, not enough of a change over stock motorsound mufflers. Most people disagree with me. I obviously have higher tolerances since I drive around with the supercups, albeit mostly to and from the track.

The bottom line is that they are different strokes for different folks. Don't let the quality issue keep you from Robin's mufflers. The only way I wouldn't recommend the RSRs is if you were looking for something "substantially" throatier/louder than stock. Of course "substantially" is in the eye of the beholder. When I say "substantially" I mean a bit more than marginally, which is what my impression of the RSR was.

The maxflows weren't real loud, but they did make a substantial difference and sounded real nice from inside the car at WOT. In other words, I could hear the mufflers over the engine.

Ron

Mark,

If Robin's mufflers are not loud enough for you there is another seldom discussed option. They are called Monty Mufflers. They are made by Monty in Victoria, Australia. I've heard they are very high quality, fit like OEM, and not quite as loud as Fabspeed Maxflo mufflers.

I have a buddy in Melbourne whose boss had them on a 993. They cost AUD $1100. Importing them yourself is not that big a deal so long as you are importing them for personal use and you have a buddy in Melbourne who can send them to you. There is also now a fellow in California who imports them. You should also check with Steve Weiner at Rennsport as he may also be able to get them.

If you have any questions you can call Monty. He's quite helpful. Just remember in Victoria they are 14 hours ahead of us; that is if you are on the east coast.

Edited: If you want Monty's phone # or his website let me know and I'll send it to you. I didn't want to post it since he is not a sponser.

nman413

It would be nice if people could post wav files of the different kinds of mufflers so that a comparison can be made....