SundayDriver

While the low trade-in offers one explaination for lower prices at dealers, there is another. Porsche dealers need to have used cars on the lot to keep traffic flowing. Many buy wholesale when needed. These tend to be the worst of the available cars. Generally private parties have the best cars. Also many individuals may put the car up for sale, but no NEED to sell it. They have a price they want and are happy to keep the car if they can't get that price.

Nicole Kidman

My experience with dealers has been that 9 times out of 10, the salesman will say whatever he/she needs to say to get you to buy. Anything they tell about the car (especially over the phone) is pure b.s. as they probably haven't even seen the actual car, much less know the history on it. Secondly, most (_most_, not all) salesmen are that first - salesmen. Most are not car enthusiasts (or if they are, that comes second). So they wouldn't know what's wrong with the car because they've never actually driven it.

And no PPI is going to catch every problem. Sometimes you have to live with a car for a few hundred/thousand miles to notice a problem. For instance, my slave cylinder didn't start to act up until weeks after I bought my car. Nor did they PPI on my previous car (964) find that the compressor would go bad 6K miles later... but how could it?

n.

Dbltime

", the salesman will say whatever he/she needs to say to get you to buy. Anything they tell about the car (especially over the phone) is pure b.s"...

Say it isn't so?

Phil

hey guys, I'm back!! In response to bills comment! I am just curious, but how many, (and I am very sorry for such an ot topic} but howmany of you gents, and ladies, have told the salespeople lies?, ie (we will be back), etc....I am not whining, but, howabout this, how many have told the "dealer", my trade is this, and my trade is that...."....Being i just took 2 trade ins described, to be good trucks, in need of nothing major!, and when I got them, both had Blown engines, no paint etc!, but hey I Made the deal!, I took my customers word, he told me they were nice trucks!etc.....guess what:, I ate my losses, went on with life,.....(too be line) no I did not "go after them" I did not contact there employers, I did not contact the Police, to tell them I was taken!!!!now for the real ot topic!!!!!!!........you wanna know how to buy a car?,,,then anyone of you here can contact me!.....period! end of report!, I will make the calls needed to be made! I will get you a fair deal, You will not steal a car, I will only deal with you, and do the work, if you are "ready, willing and able" to do the deal!!!!!!oh yes, and by the by, yes sometimes we do offer stupid offers for trades!just like anyother biz, you will never get, unless you ask!, fact we are a for "profit organization", just like all of you!, except our profit margins are a matter of public info!!!, go to try to find out what a couch costs!

Bill H. Sarasota Fl

Have you tried looking through the new Rennlist/Thalist Classifieds or used the Free Vehicle Locator form available through the Rennlist/Thalist affiliation. You might find it helpful and the dealers in Thalist Network are all Quality New Car and Independent dealers.

http://www.thalist.com ]Thalist Dealer Network[/URL]

B-Line home

Hey Phil...
I understand where you are coming from and your not entirely wrong. People do lie to car dealers too. To be honest, I have never lied about a car I have traded in. As a matter of fact, the dealer usually gets a great car from me and in great condition becasuse I take extremely good care of my vehicles.
There have even been times when I have tried to disclose certain things about a vehicle and the dealer said, "don't tell me, I don't want to know" (like when I put $4000 of mods in a car and I left them in.) But every car I ever traded in was worth more than the value I got. But sometimes that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make to not have to sell it privately or demod. But I've never hidden the truth.
I would like to take you up on your offer though. If you really think you can find me the right car I am ready to move on one immediately provided it's the right car at the right price.
I am ideally looking for a 1998, C2S.
Black, sport seats, aluminum outfitted, white dash cluster, aero kit, 20k miles, hifi, cd, litronic headlights, turbo twistie 18" wheels, limited slip, 6spd, sunroof,
motorsound, no accidents, excellent condition,
The book value of this car is 58k which I would pay provided it had all this equipment + mileage. I would adjust my price according to the specific car though.
Since dealerships are only paying book value on trade in for this car which is 51k, that leaves a nice markup for whoever sells it.
That does include certification btw.
The other colors I would buy are, silver, white (even though white has horrible resale on a Pcar so i've been told over and over.)
But, I like white so I don't care.
or Midnight blue.
So, if you have any leads, please let me know.
btw, if it is private party obviously the price will be adjusted. But that is my ideal car right now. I will settle for a car that doesn't meat my exact goals but I will adjust prices according to book value.
I am not trying to buy these cars under book value, I am just not willing to pay a premium. Especially because dealers are getting them real low priced as trade ins.
Hope to hear from you..

B-Line home

Hey Bill H...

Thanks for the lead..I sent in my request..
I did not know about thalist, hopefully I'll find what I'm looking for.
thanks again..

Phil

ok, tomroww, I will start calling, please keep in mind, i make to promise about price!, I paid good $$ for my car, and If you thnk, You can get a great car for cheap, You are just fooling yourself!

B-Line home

Wow Phil,
I really appreciate you trying to help me. That's great and I appreciate it.
In terms of price, I am not looking for a great price.. I am looking for a fair price. My numbers are based on post Sept 11, trade in values and what I have already found.
Like I said in a previous post, the authorized dealerships are selling the cars at market value, it's everyone else who is asking more for the car.
Maybe there not getting them as cheap, I do understand that, but apples to apples I have found cars priced at market value.
I'm not asking to beat market, just match it.
I have never heard of a dealer giving more for a car then it's black book value unless it was extremely rare. I have found about 40 C2S in the two weeks since I started looking.
there are exceptions like RPM sports cars which has immaculate cars but that's not what I'm looking for. Some mileage, some rock chips, that's cool with me.
But dealers are not paying over book for the car. At least not in the research I have done.
They might say..."The car is worth X" but there not saying what they paid for it. (in the cases where they ask a premium.)
So, if someone trades it in for 46k, I can't justify paying 60k for it.
There should of course be a markup, dealers need to make money, no arguement there.
And there are buyers who would not be as diligent about doing the research as I have.
But I am an educated buyer, I know what I want, I know what I will pay, and I have a very good idea of what the car cost someone to buy.
So unless it's a pre sept 11 buy and they need to sit on it because there in the hole there is a lot of room for negotiation on this car.
And if it is a pre sept 11 car and they are in the hole, that's not my fault. The value is the value. I took a bath on my audi when I sold it. It was worth more, but not to the market..
I hope you understand where I am coming from and I really appreciate the effort.

Phil

b, I am, and will be glad to help, One thing youshould understand is , that,,,,,a) a car, is worth what its worth! we have all heard the tales of the guys wife, who sold his car for x number of dollars!ie( i bought a porsche 993 for 500.00 } .....its urban legand!!!! at best! Ok, here is the deal for you!, I will sell you my 1998 c4s, 31k on the odo!, black metalic, full supple leather, dig. sound, cd changer, rear wiper, dual pwr seats, I have the orig. window sticker, .....wholesale bluebook, is around( I have not checke this month, or for 01/02) 65k!, here is the neat thing about this, I wond the car in a poker game!!!!!!!!,,,,,my output for the car was 2000.00!!!!!will I sell it for 10,000. no!!!...it seems to have a value much more than that!make me an offer
00

B-Line home

Phil,
You crack me up
About a month ago, I way dying for a 4S. (I used to have a quattro and thought I wanted another AWD.)
Then I went to Skip Barber racing school and realized that rwd was for me.
So now I have my heart set on rwd and I have to stick to my guns.
--you are right about value..I 100% agree. It is what it is. A car is only worth what someone will agree to sell it for, and what someone will agree to buy it for. No question there.
I do really appreciate you offering to help me and I look forward to your leads.
on a side note...come on phil... when's the last time anyone walked into your dealership and you gave them blue book value on trade.
I bet never. Black book, Nada, Manheim, sure!! Blue Book...You and I both know it's not worth the paper it's written on.
For the record, I just picked up a company SUV.. From a authorized BMW dealer. It's an X5, 4.4. Has 10k miles on it. Certified to 100,000. Premium package, every option except phone and nav. It's a 2001. Grey interior, upgraded stereo, you name it, it has it. I paid 47k for it. Blue book doesn't even list it because it's to new. But it lists the 2000 equilavent. The 4.4 with 10,000 miles, certified in blue book says 55k for the car. Mine is a year newer and I paid 47k. And got black book value on my car on trade. 28k for a 2000 silver Audi s4 which blue book said was worth $39840k
that's exactly $160 less than I paid for the car in 2000. And my car had 22,000 miles.
So lets use another book
thanks again phil

Phil

I would love to give blue book value to all...but, all i can ever get for offers is bluebook, less......bottom line is this...we all want nice cars,

Jeff96-993

Nicole Kidman posts here????? How about a pic or two of you and the car?????

Chris C.

B-line:

What you are asking for is possible...it will just take time (possibly a lot of it), plus the willingness to move fast and take a car that has less than absolutely everything you want.

You will likely have to lower your ethical expectations in the process...it's not likely you'll get that car at that unbelievable price and get a warm fuzzy from the experience. Common sense says you will sacrifice something (consideration) in the bargain.

Basically, you want an amazing car at an amazing price...you're right, this will not come from an individual but from a dealer trade or auction.

There are a lot of 1998 S cars coming off a 4-year lease these days (just look in the recent Pano). Most have higher miles b/c they were driven their 10-12k/year--but many are excellent finds if they have records.

Here's my learning based on a 5-month search for a C2S similar to the one you are seeking.

IMHO,you have 3 paths to find one of these in your price range.

1. Keep a list of P-car dealers within whatever range you're willing to fly/drive for a purchase. Call all of the used sales managers and give em your name and preferences. Watch Autoweek--that's where they'll end up. If any of them take a 98 (or 97) in trade, they'll move the car fast at a great price ($54-57K for a 98 seems more likely for an aerokit car than the prices you've floated). I missed the perfect car by 2 days via this route...they are out there and some smaller P-car dealers (Hendrick in NC, Baker in SC) will deal very fairly on great local owner cars. This is the best route to go but takes the most time.

2. Work with a buyer's agent or broker you trust. These off-lease cars often go right to auction. Someone who can peruse Manheim and other auctions can find you that car for a reasonable fee in that price range. Caveat emptor here, this is like using a realtor--they have a vested interest in a sale.

3. Watch what I call "second-tier" broker-dealers--guys who sell a lot of used cars mostly from auction buys and work on volume. www.luxury-motors.com is one example, Isringhausen, Marshall Goldman, etc. Peruse the Dupont for these guys. Caution: You are NOT going to get the service you are looking for when dealing with these folks. The sacrifice in "trust" is what you are giving up in your quest for a great price. Do your homework on each car, do a PPI, but NO whining about their integrity. They have none; cars are just units to them. The sales perople typically know little about Porsches ("like them turbo brakes, huh?") Caveat emptor. You will not get a Factory certified warranty this route.

I found a 98 c2s that went to auction off- lease through one of these guys, as it had one owner documented maintenance from a dealer I did trust. I had to wade through the slime of the earth to get the car, assuming everyting I heard from the broker-dealer was a lie (mostly it all was) in a very un-fun buying process. I settled for a car that had a few less options than I wanted (i.e. no LS/ABD) and have used the huge savings on the car to add the items I really want and "need" (sport seats, aluminum package, aerokit, LS, litronics).

You are on a viable path, just keep at it. You *will* have to ramp down your expectations and self-righteousness (sorry!), though, on this path. There is no free lunch, and your are using to your advantage the same system you criticize.

Many people prefer a relationship-based sale, and gladly pay more for that peace of mind, or for that garage queen PCA-owner sale. You are buying wholesale and will get what you put into it! (plus whatever luck brings you).

Good luck!
Chris C.
98 Carrera S

B-Line home

Hey Chris,

Thanks so much for the advice.
I do agree with you 100% on EVERYTHING you just said. Also, I have taken all the steps you mentioned already.
I know there will be some sacrifice somewhere and that's ok with me. I'm willing to wait for the right car at the right price. I do have my goals but that doesn't mean I won't get into a car that falls short of them. And I'm not going to split hairs over a couple hundred here or there.
I have gone to 2nd tier dealers and have the word out in a 10 state circumfrence that I'm looking for this car. I've even called california. I have found many. And fortunately I know if I get desperate I could be in one tomorrow.
I appreciate all your advice and you really are right on about all the details.
I will keep you posted with my progress..
Thanks gain so much...
btw, I'm not whinning..

I'm just sharing my experiences.
When I owned my Audi, Audi world newsgroup was a bit different. We shared every single experience related to our cars. It was actually kind of fun and addictive. Yes it got annoying at times but there would be hundreds and hundreds of posts a day. It was like an ongoing car conversation all day and all night.
If I have annoyed any of you with my rants.. My apoligies.. I am just used to sharing my experiences with everyone..
If it's not enjoyed or appreciated I will gladly hold back.