Please help me rationalize replacing Boxster S with 993
09-02-2002, 01:24 PM
#16
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If the 993 in question is a coupe, you have to deal with the very subjective decision about how important open-air motoring is for you. For a track/DE/AX car, the soft top is a liability (however, as observed above, the 986 is a superior AX performer). As for top-down cruising, some people (all too many) like the idea, but leave the top closed virtually all of the time.
Beyond the top issue, the 993 will lend itself better to track preparation. There is an RS version to provide upgrade parts, and more tuners offer more custom parts for the 993. The 986 is not track-supported by the factory, so you will be cribbing together parts from the 996 Cup (front only) and aftermarket suppliers of largely unproven merchandise. Also, you will be continually bumping up against the limitations of tracking an open car: rigidity, safety, aerodynamics will all be less than optimal. Some tracks will not let the 986 run at all, others only with 2" clearance (which is hard to come by) or only with a hard top, which adds 50 pounds high above the center of gravity.
The 986 is a much more civilized vehicle. The handling is peerless. (Add 60hp and it is unbeatable among normally aspirated Porsches.) An expert driver can make use of the 993's greater power to prevail in the match-up, but the margin for error is significantly smaller. If an average driver can get 80% of the 986's capabilities, the same level driver with the same margin for error can get only 60% of the 993's capabilities.
Hank Cohn has raced both the 996 and 993 Cup cars. If he weighs in on this thread, his comments would be very applicable to the 986 as well in many aspects.
The 986 is significantly larger than the 993 in every dimension except height and weight. They weigh about the same, the convertible 986 is lower. Thus, the cockpit is more comfortable, the trunk space is much greater. However, with the greater rake to its windshield, the greater frontal area does not put it at a disadvantage to the 993 in terms of coefficient of friction.
The 993 was built under an engineering model that over-engineered parts and believed that the cost penalty must be born to maintain customer loyalty. The 986's model provides a much more efficient realization of design potential "out of the box" and required expansion of the customer base to lure buyers away from BMW, M-B, Lexus, etc. This approach can be frustrating to previous Porsche owners who are accustomed to, indeed value and prefer, a rawer vehicle that can be easily race-prepared (whether or not the individual owner ever does this).
And that's the key: the great majority of Porsche owners (even pre-'99) did not actually utilize the potential. They paid a premium for something they either didn't appreciate or appreciated only as a concept, the way one might have a prized firearm with no intention fo ever going into combat. The 986 is more of a what-you-see-is-what-you-get proposition.
If you can be honest with yourself about the functional requirements for the car, and if you can be clear about how much the intagibles of tradition or race-worthiness (intangible if your functional realities do not look to serious track preparation) mean to you, the decison may be indicated.
Beyond the top issue, the 993 will lend itself better to track preparation. There is an RS version to provide upgrade parts, and more tuners offer more custom parts for the 993. The 986 is not track-supported by the factory, so you will be cribbing together parts from the 996 Cup (front only) and aftermarket suppliers of largely unproven merchandise. Also, you will be continually bumping up against the limitations of tracking an open car: rigidity, safety, aerodynamics will all be less than optimal. Some tracks will not let the 986 run at all, others only with 2" clearance (which is hard to come by) or only with a hard top, which adds 50 pounds high above the center of gravity.
The 986 is a much more civilized vehicle. The handling is peerless. (Add 60hp and it is unbeatable among normally aspirated Porsches.) An expert driver can make use of the 993's greater power to prevail in the match-up, but the margin for error is significantly smaller. If an average driver can get 80% of the 986's capabilities, the same level driver with the same margin for error can get only 60% of the 993's capabilities.
Hank Cohn has raced both the 996 and 993 Cup cars. If he weighs in on this thread, his comments would be very applicable to the 986 as well in many aspects.
The 986 is significantly larger than the 993 in every dimension except height and weight. They weigh about the same, the convertible 986 is lower. Thus, the cockpit is more comfortable, the trunk space is much greater. However, with the greater rake to its windshield, the greater frontal area does not put it at a disadvantage to the 993 in terms of coefficient of friction.
The 993 was built under an engineering model that over-engineered parts and believed that the cost penalty must be born to maintain customer loyalty. The 986's model provides a much more efficient realization of design potential "out of the box" and required expansion of the customer base to lure buyers away from BMW, M-B, Lexus, etc. This approach can be frustrating to previous Porsche owners who are accustomed to, indeed value and prefer, a rawer vehicle that can be easily race-prepared (whether or not the individual owner ever does this).
And that's the key: the great majority of Porsche owners (even pre-'99) did not actually utilize the potential. They paid a premium for something they either didn't appreciate or appreciated only as a concept, the way one might have a prized firearm with no intention fo ever going into combat. The 986 is more of a what-you-see-is-what-you-get proposition.
If you can be honest with yourself about the functional requirements for the car, and if you can be clear about how much the intagibles of tradition or race-worthiness (intangible if your functional realities do not look to serious track preparation) mean to you, the decison may be indicated.
09-02-2002, 07:54 PM
#18
Drifting
I have both now. I have had a Boxster for 3 years and absolutely love it. I feel it's a much more practical car for around town use. My wife can drop 4-5 grocery bags in the front trunk. Plus I have a rear trunk. I can also put the top down. I also own a hard top so I have the versatility and the double looks of a coupe. It has a smoother, more comfortable ride than the 993. It's quieter, and turbine smooth and not so tiring to drive. I love the sounds it makes. Around town, (real world scenarios) the brakes are just as good and the power is just as good as the 993. Both handle well, but the Boxster is arguably more balanced. I love the looks of the Boxster.
As far as the 993, it's a classic, that's why I bought it. It's rolling sculpture. It's faster than the Boxster, it's got more torque, but you can't use that very often on the way to Walgreens. It's also a LOT noisier than the Boxster. Sure the engine sounds ok, but I guess I prefer the sound of a BMW straight six or my Jaguar twin cam than I do the the flat six (no flames, please) It's just very "mechanical" compared to other cars. Maybe I need a better exhaust! The shorter wheelbase gives the 993 a choppier ride than the Boxster, but the steering ratio is faster and sharper.
Does the Boxster have a soul? Maybe not. They were designed for a new generation of customers. A generation of customers that don't know what the "flash" is. A generation of customers that just drive their cars. A generation of customers that, frankly, saved Porsche's butt! Just like the Cayenne is doing.
Anyway, the Boxster and 993 are two different cars and I think we as Rennlisters can love them both. I do.
My Boxster was leased and is going away. I just got the 993 and am loving it. I fully plan to replace the Boxster in the future with another one. And at this point, I am not sure what the long term "keeper" will be.
As far as the 993, it's a classic, that's why I bought it. It's rolling sculpture. It's faster than the Boxster, it's got more torque, but you can't use that very often on the way to Walgreens. It's also a LOT noisier than the Boxster. Sure the engine sounds ok, but I guess I prefer the sound of a BMW straight six or my Jaguar twin cam than I do the the flat six (no flames, please) It's just very "mechanical" compared to other cars. Maybe I need a better exhaust! The shorter wheelbase gives the 993 a choppier ride than the Boxster, but the steering ratio is faster and sharper.
Does the Boxster have a soul? Maybe not. They were designed for a new generation of customers. A generation of customers that don't know what the "flash" is. A generation of customers that just drive their cars. A generation of customers that, frankly, saved Porsche's butt! Just like the Cayenne is doing.
Anyway, the Boxster and 993 are two different cars and I think we as Rennlisters can love them both. I do.
My Boxster was leased and is going away. I just got the 993 and am loving it. I fully plan to replace the Boxster in the future with another one. And at this point, I am not sure what the long term "keeper" will be.
09-02-2002, 08:46 PM
#19
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Hi HP,
Similar to BradB, I own a '01 Boxster 2.7 and a '96 993 C4S, and I love them both. They're very different cars, and hard to compare as a result, but I'll try.
A few months ago I wrote this comparison using a template provided by other rennlisters:
<a href="http://www.skipsauls.net/other/993vs986.html" target="_blank">1996 Carrera 4S vs. 2001 Boxster</a>
Since writing this both cars have seen numerous track days and a couple of thousand highway miles each. Both cars have been upgraded with sport suspensions, exhausts, intakes, track seats, harnesses, fire extinguishers, racing brake pads, new rotors, and DOT track tires. Basically I've been trying to make both of them great road and track cars, and they are. But...
I've decided to de-track the Boxster and make the 993 a full-blown track car. While it's nice to be able to drive to the track and back, I really want to go all out with a trailer, roll-cage, track tires, etc. Over the Winter I'll be doing a few things to get it ready for next year, and expect that it's going to be a blast.
The Boxster now has less aggressive Sparco seats, the BK rollhoop extension is off, and the tires are being swapped out for some Pilot Sports. It's more fun to put the top down and go canyon blasting in the Boxster, so it's going to be my daily fun car. I'll probably still take it to the track every now an then as it's fun, but it won't be the racer.
Here are some recent pics of both, with lots more on my site listed in the sig:
Which is better looking? That's a tough one as they both have their good sides. Both are better looking than the 996, IMHO, and I hope that Porsche will rectify this with the 997. The spy shots show a rear with proportions closer to that of the 993, which would be great.
I can't comment on things like resale value as I didn't buy these cars as investments. They're tools for the track and toys for the road, and I never expected them to make money. Sure, I'll be happy if they're worth something in a few years, but who said that I was going to sell them?
I do agree with Ray's suggestion, if not his rather rude way of putting it.
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
Similar to BradB, I own a '01 Boxster 2.7 and a '96 993 C4S, and I love them both. They're very different cars, and hard to compare as a result, but I'll try.
A few months ago I wrote this comparison using a template provided by other rennlisters:
<a href="http://www.skipsauls.net/other/993vs986.html" target="_blank">1996 Carrera 4S vs. 2001 Boxster</a>
Since writing this both cars have seen numerous track days and a couple of thousand highway miles each. Both cars have been upgraded with sport suspensions, exhausts, intakes, track seats, harnesses, fire extinguishers, racing brake pads, new rotors, and DOT track tires. Basically I've been trying to make both of them great road and track cars, and they are. But...
I've decided to de-track the Boxster and make the 993 a full-blown track car. While it's nice to be able to drive to the track and back, I really want to go all out with a trailer, roll-cage, track tires, etc. Over the Winter I'll be doing a few things to get it ready for next year, and expect that it's going to be a blast.
The Boxster now has less aggressive Sparco seats, the BK rollhoop extension is off, and the tires are being swapped out for some Pilot Sports. It's more fun to put the top down and go canyon blasting in the Boxster, so it's going to be my daily fun car. I'll probably still take it to the track every now an then as it's fun, but it won't be the racer.
Here are some recent pics of both, with lots more on my site listed in the sig:
Which is better looking? That's a tough one as they both have their good sides. Both are better looking than the 996, IMHO, and I hope that Porsche will rectify this with the 997. The spy shots show a rear with proportions closer to that of the 993, which would be great.
I can't comment on things like resale value as I didn't buy these cars as investments. They're tools for the track and toys for the road, and I never expected them to make money. Sure, I'll be happy if they're worth something in a few years, but who said that I was going to sell them?
I do agree with Ray's suggestion, if not his rather rude way of putting it.
<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
09-02-2002, 09:02 PM
#20
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I agree with BradB, and I also have both, a 2000 2.7 Tip, and a 96 Turbo. There's no right answer. If I could only have one car for driving around Los Angeles, I would probably choose the Boxster, as I think it's more fun to drive in the city driving I do, has more storage space, and is more comfortable. Turbo is obviously a different animal; an incredible car. But need open roads, or track, to appreciate what it can do. Last week I drove from LA to SF and back in the Boxster, and it was very comfortable, and solid as a rock at prolonged high speeds on Hwy 5. Also a ball going back on Hwy 1. Don't punish yourself looking for the right answer, you can't lose.
09-03-2002, 01:08 AM
#21
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I appreciate all your great responses. BradB, Skip and LeeR - I really envy you guys. I would love to be able to keep my S and get a 993 just for track use. The Boxster is really a very comfortable sports car that is also a convertible. For me, the top down driving part isn't that important, which is why I want to get a 993 C2 coupe.
The more I think about it, the more I lean towards getting a 993. If I can find one to drive, I will do that before I make my final decision. When I do sell the Boxster, I will miss it but hopefully the 993 will be such the amazing car I imagined it to be that I wouldn't regret selling the Boxster.
Thanks you guys for sharing the great pics!
The more I think about it, the more I lean towards getting a 993. If I can find one to drive, I will do that before I make my final decision. When I do sell the Boxster, I will miss it but hopefully the 993 will be such the amazing car I imagined it to be that I wouldn't regret selling the Boxster.
Thanks you guys for sharing the great pics!
09-03-2002, 01:04 PM
#22
Every once and a while I get a chance to post something about these cars I am familiar with. Generally, it is related to pricing and cost.
I got a chance to speak to a person who is really informed on the 993 and recent Boxster/996 cars. He is the shop foreman at a dealer that does 250 cars/year new sales (Porsche only) and he has 15 years experience.
I was calling about research on a car that we were looking to buy. Man did I get an ear full.
This man was very frustrated about the declining build quality of the latest cars when compared to the 993. Specifically, he had major complaints about the liquid cooled motors. His contention was that the over all quality of the engines in these cars is dropping. What took 44 hours to build (993) is now in the upper 20's with the new stuff. Quality of simple electronic parts is dropping and outsourcing makes this possible in order to keep pricing attractive on the cars. His shop has replaced 100 water cooled engines since 1997.
Interesting this would be about 6-7% of cars sold in that time frame from his shop alone, new engines. And BMW-philes are complaing about the M3 motors spinning bearings and dropping dead at under 10K! This is very worrisome.
My advice is to look hard and long at the Boxster, I think the new cars with increased horsepower is an important selling point, but many people would agree the last 5 years for Porsche has "Japanezed a German car" with the plastic parts and declining general quality. I will stick with the 993, for a while. Good luck.
I got a chance to speak to a person who is really informed on the 993 and recent Boxster/996 cars. He is the shop foreman at a dealer that does 250 cars/year new sales (Porsche only) and he has 15 years experience.
I was calling about research on a car that we were looking to buy. Man did I get an ear full.
This man was very frustrated about the declining build quality of the latest cars when compared to the 993. Specifically, he had major complaints about the liquid cooled motors. His contention was that the over all quality of the engines in these cars is dropping. What took 44 hours to build (993) is now in the upper 20's with the new stuff. Quality of simple electronic parts is dropping and outsourcing makes this possible in order to keep pricing attractive on the cars. His shop has replaced 100 water cooled engines since 1997.
Interesting this would be about 6-7% of cars sold in that time frame from his shop alone, new engines. And BMW-philes are complaing about the M3 motors spinning bearings and dropping dead at under 10K! This is very worrisome.
My advice is to look hard and long at the Boxster, I think the new cars with increased horsepower is an important selling point, but many people would agree the last 5 years for Porsche has "Japanezed a German car" with the plastic parts and declining general quality. I will stick with the 993, for a while. Good luck.
09-03-2002, 04:03 PM
#23
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I loved driving my 993, and still think it's one of the most beautiful cars ever built. I believe it is a wonderful sportscar on the open road, but not so good as a commuter for use in stop and go traffic. I think it's only fair to point out that there are have been some serious mechanical issues with the 993's - high likelihood of valve guide wear at low mileage requiring expensive work, blocked air passages in the heads, problems with synchro's wearing out, not to mention the $400 oil changes (if you don't DIY). Many of these issues have been discussed in this forum and can be found in the archives. If you are prepared for these potential problems, there's nothing nicer. Good luck!
09-03-2002, 08:29 PM
#24
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Picking up on TimRod's point, keep in mind that the newest 993 that you'll be able to buy is four years old (1998), and most that you'll be looking at will be five or six years old (1997 or 1996), given that relatively few 1998 993s were made.
Of course, 993s are not "regular" cars, either in terms of build quality or normal use patterns. As a result, you should be able to find a low mileage 993 that will last a very long time. However, you will still be crossing over from a new car under warranty that you never have to think about to a used sports car that needs periodic care and feeding and is (most likely) out of warranty. Can you deal with the prospect of something "popping-up" and costing $3-5,000, both from a financial perspective and from a pain in the *** justify it to the wife perspective? If you can, I say GO FOR IT!
Of course, 993s are not "regular" cars, either in terms of build quality or normal use patterns. As a result, you should be able to find a low mileage 993 that will last a very long time. However, you will still be crossing over from a new car under warranty that you never have to think about to a used sports car that needs periodic care and feeding and is (most likely) out of warranty. Can you deal with the prospect of something "popping-up" and costing $3-5,000, both from a financial perspective and from a pain in the *** justify it to the wife perspective? If you can, I say GO FOR IT!
09-04-2002, 12:39 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
[quote]Originally posted by timrod:
[QB]....not to mention the $400 oil changes (if you don't DIY)...QB]<hr></blockquote>
You've got to be kidding! This is absurd! My mechanic charges $50 labor plus oil and filter, for a total around $100.
[QB]....not to mention the $400 oil changes (if you don't DIY)...QB]<hr></blockquote>
You've got to be kidding! This is absurd! My mechanic charges $50 labor plus oil and filter, for a total around $100.
09-05-2002, 05:08 PM
#27
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I never actually owned a Boxster but did have an order in for an S (which I cancelled today incidentally). I sweated for months over which to buy (a Boxster has a 12 month delivery time in the UK) and decided to go for the 993. Why??
1. The 911 has been an icon for me since I was very young and the 993 is without doubt the best looking 911 ever (I could get all jingoistic and point out that the designer was British!) The Boxster looks good too but doesn't really have that extra something.
2. It makes the most glorious noise when you boot it. So does the Boxster but it sounds a bit manufactured.
3. My car lives on the street and a canvas roof could be more of a target.
4. The car looks a bit flashier..ditto target for miscreants.
5. The 993 will depreciate far less than the Boxster.
6. The 993 is an absolute classic. The Boxster is a long long way from such a status
Net result = a very happy guy!
So there you go..hope this helps.
1. The 911 has been an icon for me since I was very young and the 993 is without doubt the best looking 911 ever (I could get all jingoistic and point out that the designer was British!) The Boxster looks good too but doesn't really have that extra something.
2. It makes the most glorious noise when you boot it. So does the Boxster but it sounds a bit manufactured.
3. My car lives on the street and a canvas roof could be more of a target.
4. The car looks a bit flashier..ditto target for miscreants.
5. The 993 will depreciate far less than the Boxster.
6. The 993 is an absolute classic. The Boxster is a long long way from such a status
Net result = a very happy guy!
So there you go..hope this helps.
09-06-2002, 01:44 PM
#29
Drifting
[quote]Originally posted by oleg steciw:
<strong>
You've got to be kidding! This is absurd! My mechanic charges $50 labor plus oil and filter, for a total around $100.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What country is this in? Here in the United States Mobile One goes for about $4.25 a quart. Times 12 that is... $51. I think I paid around $12 apiece for each oil filter, so that's another $25, plus the little crush washers and o-rings and taxes... either this guy isn't actually changing the oil, or you're swapping some other kind of services... it doesn't add up.
However, I agree that $400 for an oil change is a bit excessive.
Michael
<strong>
You've got to be kidding! This is absurd! My mechanic charges $50 labor plus oil and filter, for a total around $100.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What country is this in? Here in the United States Mobile One goes for about $4.25 a quart. Times 12 that is... $51. I think I paid around $12 apiece for each oil filter, so that's another $25, plus the little crush washers and o-rings and taxes... either this guy isn't actually changing the oil, or you're swapping some other kind of services... it doesn't add up.
However, I agree that $400 for an oil change is a bit excessive.
Michael
