Instead of a Carbon Fiber Key Fob - And More Useful - Carbon Fiber Motor Mount
08-20-2003, 03:26 PM
#16
Chuck:
Without going deeply too into this as this is not a highly technical forum, all of your comments are fair and have been taken into consideration. Indeed, given this is a "road" car, the parts have been over engineered, i.e., if a true racing application with a service life and maintenance program appertaining thereto, we could have operated considerably more closely to the margin. Finally, in high temperature applications, special carbon fiber products are used and, above certain temperature, one might switch to carbon ceramics.
Without going deeply too into this as this is not a highly technical forum, all of your comments are fair and have been taken into consideration. Indeed, given this is a "road" car, the parts have been over engineered, i.e., if a true racing application with a service life and maintenance program appertaining thereto, we could have operated considerably more closely to the margin. Finally, in high temperature applications, special carbon fiber products are used and, above certain temperature, one might switch to carbon ceramics.
08-20-2003, 04:40 PM
#17
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Hi Robert,
I am in awe yet again at the latest crop of marvels from your project. Please keep posting them here on the list. A question for you, Do you have applications of thermoplastic CF composites? Epoxy is mentioned a few times, but I had a brush with PEEK and PEI a few years back and there's probably more developments since.
And a few observations on Chuck's notes too. Firstly Plastics and Composites have been steadily growing as "proper" engineering materials for decades. However, in every decade there have been predictions that it would BOOM exponentially and take over the engineering world. Perception management: the industry is measured against these expectations rather than reckognised for it's actual performance.
Secondly the comments about observed failures. I have observed some shocking steel failures in my current job in the Oil & Gas Industry. But nobody blames the steel for it, do they? When a failure occurs, any failure, it means that either the engineering or the QA/QC during manufacturing was at fault, or the part was simply overloaded compared to it's design envelope, be it with forces, temperatures or chemicals etc.
There are no magic bullets indeed, it's about applying yourself, your skills and getting to the bottom of things with the usual mix of inspiration and perspiration. Meanwhile anyone of us for 1200$ can buy a stock 9 ft long windsurfer that does 35 mph on bumpy water, jumps 10 ft waves with my 200+ lbs frame attached to it (under warranty to do so) lasts for years and weighs.....15 lbs indeed. (Had to get the surf link in there, end of rant)
Keep 'm coming Robert.
Enjoy
Nol
I am in awe yet again at the latest crop of marvels from your project. Please keep posting them here on the list. A question for you, Do you have applications of thermoplastic CF composites? Epoxy is mentioned a few times, but I had a brush with PEEK and PEI a few years back and there's probably more developments since.
And a few observations on Chuck's notes too. Firstly Plastics and Composites have been steadily growing as "proper" engineering materials for decades. However, in every decade there have been predictions that it would BOOM exponentially and take over the engineering world. Perception management: the industry is measured against these expectations rather than reckognised for it's actual performance.
Secondly the comments about observed failures. I have observed some shocking steel failures in my current job in the Oil & Gas Industry. But nobody blames the steel for it, do they? When a failure occurs, any failure, it means that either the engineering or the QA/QC during manufacturing was at fault, or the part was simply overloaded compared to it's design envelope, be it with forces, temperatures or chemicals etc.
There are no magic bullets indeed, it's about applying yourself, your skills and getting to the bottom of things with the usual mix of inspiration and perspiration. Meanwhile anyone of us for 1200$ can buy a stock 9 ft long windsurfer that does 35 mph on bumpy water, jumps 10 ft waves with my 200+ lbs frame attached to it (under warranty to do so) lasts for years and weighs.....15 lbs indeed. (Had to get the surf link in there, end of rant)
Keep 'm coming Robert.
Enjoy
Nol
08-20-2003, 05:26 PM
#18
Thank you for your points. And, of course, I agree - success or failure has much to do with the engineering -- and we believe we have over engineered. As to your other comment, I don't windsurf -- and beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder.
P.S. I also see more beauty in electron beam welded hard chromed titanium damper shafts than some.
P.S. I also see more beauty in electron beam welded hard chromed titanium damper shafts than some.
Last edited by Robert Linton; 08-20-2003 at 08:09 PM.
08-21-2003, 12:35 PM
#19
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Robert & Nol,
Thanks for your input guys, I think we are all on the same page, just throwing around ideas...just seeing the pictures of the beautiful parts that Robert posts gets my imagination going.
After I posted about what other materials might have been considered for motor mounts I realized, yes, the carbon fiber mounts will eventually fail, but then the stock mounts too will eventually fail. Mr. Linton's mounts being so-called "over engineered" may even have a service life above that of the stock mounts.
It just seems that Mr. Linton is one of the few people in the world that has the opportunity and the resources to produce designs from a clean sheet, and the possibilities make my imagination reel. I'm sure some parts applications just beg for a particular material, where others could call for several different solutions each with their particular merits and down sides.
Nol, your point is well taken that failures do occur in ALL materials, I didn't mean to imply that they only occurred in composites. I've seen a fair share of Al alloy fatigue failures, not to mention corrosion, which is a daily battle. I've also attended stress labs, to intentionally overload materials to failure, good empirical data (and lots of fun breaking stuff, the literal opposite of non-destructive testing). Any material has it's limits, it cannot be asked to do the impossible, and every material has it's inherent strengths and weaknesses dealing with different types of loads, environmental forces, and aging, and then one must usually figure in financial considerations. QA/QC doesn't just stop at the factory, too, I think that is a major point when it comes to using composites for primary aircraft structure. Metal sructures lend themselves to a lot of various non-destructive testing procedures, wheras composites can be very difficult to monitor.
I do see composites coming into their own, they are fantastic materials, I wonder how the weight of your windsurfer compares with a 1960s vintage surf board, less than half, a third? I'm sure we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg right now as far as these materials go.
Beauty indeed, that oil tank and front shock mount made me drool. An elegant engineering solution is always a thing of beauty to me, be it a paper clip, or a jet fighter.
The best to both of you, thanks for the conversation.
Thanks for your input guys, I think we are all on the same page, just throwing around ideas...just seeing the pictures of the beautiful parts that Robert posts gets my imagination going.
After I posted about what other materials might have been considered for motor mounts I realized, yes, the carbon fiber mounts will eventually fail, but then the stock mounts too will eventually fail. Mr. Linton's mounts being so-called "over engineered" may even have a service life above that of the stock mounts.
It just seems that Mr. Linton is one of the few people in the world that has the opportunity and the resources to produce designs from a clean sheet, and the possibilities make my imagination reel. I'm sure some parts applications just beg for a particular material, where others could call for several different solutions each with their particular merits and down sides.
Nol, your point is well taken that failures do occur in ALL materials, I didn't mean to imply that they only occurred in composites. I've seen a fair share of Al alloy fatigue failures, not to mention corrosion, which is a daily battle. I've also attended stress labs, to intentionally overload materials to failure, good empirical data (and lots of fun breaking stuff, the literal opposite of non-destructive testing). Any material has it's limits, it cannot be asked to do the impossible, and every material has it's inherent strengths and weaknesses dealing with different types of loads, environmental forces, and aging, and then one must usually figure in financial considerations. QA/QC doesn't just stop at the factory, too, I think that is a major point when it comes to using composites for primary aircraft structure. Metal sructures lend themselves to a lot of various non-destructive testing procedures, wheras composites can be very difficult to monitor.
I do see composites coming into their own, they are fantastic materials, I wonder how the weight of your windsurfer compares with a 1960s vintage surf board, less than half, a third? I'm sure we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg right now as far as these materials go.
Beauty indeed, that oil tank and front shock mount made me drool. An elegant engineering solution is always a thing of beauty to me, be it a paper clip, or a jet fighter.
The best to both of you, thanks for the conversation.
08-21-2003, 05:10 PM
#20
Gentlemen:
To dream the impossible dream is what got us out of the stone age -- and it these types of interchanges that help. Although I have not put really complicated pieces on the web, your kind interest and thought compel me to do so out of respect for you and all those who dare to think beyond the envelope. In a few moments, I will post a few pictures of one of my favorite pieces, although of older suspension technology, it shows what can be done far better and far more than would the equivalent in Porsche's newer rear suspension which is considerably simpler to translate into carbon fiber, titanium, etc. I hope you enjoy the pictures.
Bob
To dream the impossible dream is what got us out of the stone age -- and it these types of interchanges that help. Although I have not put really complicated pieces on the web, your kind interest and thought compel me to do so out of respect for you and all those who dare to think beyond the envelope. In a few moments, I will post a few pictures of one of my favorite pieces, although of older suspension technology, it shows what can be done far better and far more than would the equivalent in Porsche's newer rear suspension which is considerably simpler to translate into carbon fiber, titanium, etc. I hope you enjoy the pictures.
Bob
08-21-2003, 05:26 PM
#21
And the details of the above:
• carbon fiber swing arm
• bonded titanium monoball
• bonded titanium carrier
• titanium adjusting plate with titanium rod end
• ceramic ball wheel bearing
• carbon fiber cooling ducts for wheel bearing, outboard CV and brakes
• 300M ion impregnated outboard CV with ceramic ***** and integrated 300M axle/center screw for center lock system
• titanium center lock hub with integrated titanium driving pegs
• aluminum lithium monobloc 4 titanium piston caliper with air gaps, dual pads, quick release pad pins, titanium quick disconnect valves in place of bleed screws and titanium quick disconnect valve in the lightweight stainless steel braided Raychem covered hose with machined titanium fittings between caliper and chassis hard line and machined Porsche racing script in white
• 350 mm x 28 mm carbon ceramic brake disk with floating 2618 aluminum bell mounted with titanium bobbin system with air gaps
To this will also be attached:
• 5-way adjustable titanium/aluminum damper with electron beam welded 300M shaft directly connected to adjusting canister
• titanium main and helper spring with ultra high molecular weight plastic transition piece
• aluminum 4-way spring rate adjuster with integrated titanium locking mechanism
• adjustable titanium drop link
• 4130 zinc passivate coated anti roll bar with 4-way adjustable 4130 machined ends with Orkot® bushings, titanium mounting brackets and titanium fasteners
• titanium/steel center lock nut
• one-piece forged magnesium center lock wheel with titanium pressure shim
• carbon fiber swing arm
• bonded titanium monoball
• bonded titanium carrier
• titanium adjusting plate with titanium rod end
• ceramic ball wheel bearing
• carbon fiber cooling ducts for wheel bearing, outboard CV and brakes
• 300M ion impregnated outboard CV with ceramic ***** and integrated 300M axle/center screw for center lock system
• titanium center lock hub with integrated titanium driving pegs
• aluminum lithium monobloc 4 titanium piston caliper with air gaps, dual pads, quick release pad pins, titanium quick disconnect valves in place of bleed screws and titanium quick disconnect valve in the lightweight stainless steel braided Raychem covered hose with machined titanium fittings between caliper and chassis hard line and machined Porsche racing script in white
• 350 mm x 28 mm carbon ceramic brake disk with floating 2618 aluminum bell mounted with titanium bobbin system with air gaps
To this will also be attached:
• 5-way adjustable titanium/aluminum damper with electron beam welded 300M shaft directly connected to adjusting canister
• titanium main and helper spring with ultra high molecular weight plastic transition piece
• aluminum 4-way spring rate adjuster with integrated titanium locking mechanism
• adjustable titanium drop link
• 4130 zinc passivate coated anti roll bar with 4-way adjustable 4130 machined ends with Orkot® bushings, titanium mounting brackets and titanium fasteners
• titanium/steel center lock nut
• one-piece forged magnesium center lock wheel with titanium pressure shim
08-21-2003, 06:09 PM
#22
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Thats a nice piece Robert.
On our Champ car drivetrain, 300M is used throughout. We used a 10ball, ceramic, oil-fed CV joint inside our gearbox, just aft of the input shaft. That was a part, believe it or not, that would last an entire season of 20 or so races, yet got mileaged out at 1500 miles, by most of our customers. This is a part that is so very 'dainty' looking, yet withstands the rigors and constant loading and unloading of 900+ HP and saw 15600 +/- RPM.
Truly, 300M is amazing material. Metalore is the company that made our 300M stuff for our Champ cars. Some of the highest quality work that I have seen.
Keep up the great work and engineering!
On our Champ car drivetrain, 300M is used throughout. We used a 10ball, ceramic, oil-fed CV joint inside our gearbox, just aft of the input shaft. That was a part, believe it or not, that would last an entire season of 20 or so races, yet got mileaged out at 1500 miles, by most of our customers. This is a part that is so very 'dainty' looking, yet withstands the rigors and constant loading and unloading of 900+ HP and saw 15600 +/- RPM.
Truly, 300M is amazing material. Metalore is the company that made our 300M stuff for our Champ cars. Some of the highest quality work that I have seen.
Keep up the great work and engineering!
08-22-2003, 06:21 AM
#25
Chris:
300M is good although in certain applications, e.g., damper shafts of a particular length, EB welded hard chromed or tungsten carbided Ti might be favored due to weight. Also, have you used Vascomax for anything?
300M is good although in certain applications, e.g., damper shafts of a particular length, EB welded hard chromed or tungsten carbided Ti might be favored due to weight. Also, have you used Vascomax for anything?
08-22-2003, 08:27 AM
#26
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Robert,
We used Vascomax c-300 and c-350 in some applications. It had great resistance to wear, but was hard to get as light as Ti and keep the parts from fatigue failure. The heat treatment process was also a little brutal and caused parts to fall out of tolerance. I like the 300M due to the properties ( comparable to C-300) , but has much better predictability after heat treat due to the "easy" heat treatment process. Do you guys use any other Maraging steels?
Dan
We used Vascomax c-300 and c-350 in some applications. It had great resistance to wear, but was hard to get as light as Ti and keep the parts from fatigue failure. The heat treatment process was also a little brutal and caused parts to fall out of tolerance. I like the 300M due to the properties ( comparable to C-300) , but has much better predictability after heat treat due to the "easy" heat treatment process. Do you guys use any other Maraging steels?
Dan
08-22-2003, 08:47 AM
#27
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Originally posted by Robert Linton
Chris:
Also, have you used Vascomax for anything?
Chris:
Also, have you used Vascomax for anything?
A side note, I got to take a lap on the Montreal track yesterday. We were headed for the paddock in the rental car and we had to go on track for a few hundred yards in the reverse direction. So we turned around, and took a parade lap. It is much narrower than what it looks like on TV. I wish I had my camera with me at the time. Maybe next year?
08-22-2003, 12:07 PM
#28
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I can't think of the last time I drooled over a swingarm.
Thanks, Robert! A dream for the likes of me but as you say, that's what moves us forward.
Thanks, Robert! A dream for the likes of me but as you say, that's what moves us forward.
08-22-2003, 02:05 PM
#29
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Robert,
Once again it seems you have taken a part that would go virtually unnoticed on any other car and elevated it to a higher existence. The way the cooling duct is integrated into the design instead of being 'tacked on' is the sort of elegant engineering solution that really gets my mind racing.
Kudos to you,
Once again it seems you have taken a part that would go virtually unnoticed on any other car and elevated it to a higher existence. The way the cooling duct is integrated into the design instead of being 'tacked on' is the sort of elegant engineering solution that really gets my mind racing.
Kudos to you,
08-22-2003, 02:08 PM
#30
Is there a place we can see all of the other artwork you seem to have jump out of pure imagination? Simply wonderful.
Do you do freelance items for less-stressed pbjects such as strut bars, other braces, molded copies of existing pieces?
Thanks,
Do you do freelance items for less-stressed pbjects such as strut bars, other braces, molded copies of existing pieces?
Thanks,