Mark in Hermosa

Hi all. Below is a "back and forth" with someone ("Seller") that put an ad on Rennlist regarding a bumper he had for sale that "needed repainting".

So my question is, what did I do wrong? Would anyone have done anything different?

The lowdown. He has a bumper for sale with no price. I ask him the price. No price. I give him a price. He gets mad. I justify my price. I ask for a price again. He gets mad.

Read from the bottom up where it starts and help me with my "webicate"

EDIT: What would be a fair price?

Thanks!


Mark...I am one of those people who still believe that it is better to treat
people fairly...I know this is a very un-American stance to take, but it's
just who I am...you must realize that the $100. you paid for the other was a fire sale price...using that as a benchmark would seem to me to be a touch unfair...do you know what these generally sell for out there?...how about this, why don't we ask the Rennlist people for a idea of what this should cost...I garentee you I will come back with a cost which is lower than the concensous...I seriously have little idea what this should go for now but I do know that your offer was a touch on the low side...what do you think?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Buyer" <Buyer
To: "Seller" <Seller
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Bumper


Seriously. I just bought a bumper for $100. No joke. It was a turbo
bumper.
My offer was based on three facts.
1) You told me to name the price.
2) You sold your car and this thing is probably taking up space
(assumption).
3) The above mentioned purchase and my adding $100 to it for the chin
spoiler.

It was not a malicious offer. I completely expected you to come back with
something...anything. Had I offered $1200 for it, would that have been the
smart thing to do? Where do I start the bidding? At what price? I really
did use what I knew to give you a price.

So, back to the matter at hand. What would you like to sell it for?

Mark


----- Original Message -----
From: "Seller" <Seller
To: "Buyer" <Buyer
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: Bumper


Mark...I understand your thinking...you want the lowest price you can
get...$200., $100., $50. if you can get it for that...I asked you to
make me an offer and you attempted to take advantage of the fact that I stated I was not greedy...this is the way it works because we live in a society where everyone appears to be greedy...so, you gave me a low ball offer,offended (not really, but definitely showed your hand) the seller, and that's that...it's the way it works...I would be more than happy to bring it to
the dump then give it away for $200...Mark, there are still a frw people
left in the world where it's not about the money...

Good luck to you also!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Buyer" <Buyer
To: "Seller" <Seller
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: Bumper


Let me be frank. I asked you to name a price. You said "Not really.
Make an offer. I am not a greedy person."

Having 3 of these cars, I am well aware of what they cost new, used,
and how much they cost to repaint.

I sent a bid your way and you come back with banter about being fair?
How the hell should I know what you want to sell it for? Typically
speaking, I bid a price. If you don't like it, you say, "I was thinking more along $xxx.xx". That is the typical way to do it.

It is called negotiations. It is really not that difficult to figure out.

Good luck selling it.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Seller" <Seller
To: <mosterka@wilshire.com
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: Bumper


Mark...these cost about $1500. new...you think that $200. is a fair
price?...$100. for a turbo bumper cover is stealing it...I think you
need to look elsewhere because we're nowhere near each other on
price...sorry

----- Original Message -----
From: <mosterka@wilshire.com
To: <Seller
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: Bumper


Not sure if that means yes or no! I just bought a turbo bumper for
my other 993 (narrow body) for $100. I was lucky in that the color matched
and there was no damage or repaint needed. I figured the chin spoiler would double the price.

Let me know if your e-mail was riddled with sarcasm or not .

Mark


Quoting Seller:

You don't want this then...$200. would certainly be the deal of the
century, no doubt about it...costs nearly that much for an oil change...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Buyer" <Buyer
To: <Seller
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 2:37 PM
Subject: RE: Bumper


I was ballparking around $200+shipping (if necessary). The S chin
spoiler is the only negative I can see since I do not have the S
tail.

Mark



-----Original Message-----
From: Seller
[mailto:Seller]
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 1:24 PM
To: Buyer
Subject: Re: Bumper


Not really. Make an offer. I am not a greedy person.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Buyer" <Buyer
To: <Seller
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 12:36 PM
Subject: RE: Bumper


Seller:

Thanks for getting back to me. Did you have a price in mind?

Mark



-----Original Message-----
From: Seller
[mailto:Seller]
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 12:05 PM
To: Buyer
Subject: Re: Bumper


Hello Mark...yes it is still available...please note that the
turbo S spoiler is permanently fixed to the cover (Porsche uses an
epoxy to make sure it doesn't come off)...I converted to the
euroturbo bumper cover and susequently sold the car...questions?

Seller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Buyer" <Buyer
To: <Seller
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 7:49 AM
Subject: Bumper


I am interested in your bumper. Is it still available?

Thanks.

Mark

TMH

Mark,

For the life of me I can't see anything you did wrong, nor any faults in your logic for setting your initial bid. Based on the "seller's" apparent attitude, however, it sounds like you have already wasted too much of your valuable time with this guy and it is time to move on.

There are lots of folks out there who value Porsche related items way too highly. Like the guys that spend $25k modding their cars and then feel that they can get this back and more when they go to sell it. No point in trying to be logical with people living in their own little worlds, especially when they also have a poor attitude.

Tom

willisit

I find the main problem with mail (and therefore text) is that emotion/sarcasm/truth/etc/etc all gets lost in the reading. What you had written sounded fair and you were simply offering what you thought it'd be worth (testing the water perhaps).

I'm after a turbo bumper here in the UK.. probably never happen.. but I too would have offered a low bid and expected some sort of "Actually I was hoping for more like.. ". It's not nasty.

On another forum I frequent someone was trying to sell their car cheaply - however it was heavily modified and they had removed parts - things went a similar route. It happens a lot.

Hope you find that bumper

graham_mitchell

Mark, to be honest I think the seller sounds quite reasonable. I wouldn't describe his behaviour as 'getting mad'.

laurence '97 C4S

What's the big deal. You offered one price, he didn't accept it. Either hit his price or move on. All the personal nonsense is just that: nonsense.

Mark97c2

My thinking is that used bumpers go for 100-500 because they have been painted already and they also vary depending on the condition; if it was re-painted; if valances are attached...permanently...

1200 is a lot for a brand new bumper...that's like dealer price...but who shops at the dealer for this kind of stuff...places like Jasmine, carnewal, Forestfine offer brand new bumpers for hundreds less for the same OEM stuff.

Although I have not seen the bumper to judge, I would think $200 would be an adequate pricing *if* the bumper was in *fair* shape but the permanent chin spoiler really hurts the price IMO.

To the seller, I don't think Mark was being cocky or anything, he gave a price of what he thought was *correct* for the bumper. You didn't specify a price to him and if i'm not mistaken, you still havn't. If you don't want his business, then don't deal with him.

My $.02

GratefulJED

Having recently dealt with Mark as a seller, I can say that he is gruff, antagonistic, sophomoric, pedantic, and any other of a hundred adjectives that describe his kind and if it were not for the fact that I have more money than sense no meeting of the minds would have occured. Having said that, I would certainly deal with him again!!!

small print: none of the forgoing is true except for the part about dealing with him again!!


EDIT: My hero would be a guy that can trade used fabspeed exhausts for a turbo bumper and still have money left over for dinner, drinks and a night on the town in LA!

Jeff 993TT

Reminds me of a similar expereicne that I had when I tried to buy a set of RUF pedals from another rennlister. He was "insulted" by my low offer. But he calmed down after I told him that another set was sold at that same price the week before.

I think that people just don't understand market value sometimes. That being said, did I mention that I was selling my TT for 120K? Any takers?

STLPCA

Mark
It's an obvious difference in philosophy. Many here treat Rennlister to Rennlister transactions as just any arms length deal between 2 strangers. I.e., dog eat dog w/each side fighting for the last scrap. That's OK, I see no fault in what you did & this is NOT intended as a flame.

However, many others here, and I suspect your seller, go out of their way to interject a sense of objective fairness & helpfulness when dealing w/other Members, much as (I hope) is done within a family. I would guess that the seller would have accepted a moderately below market offer w/o further negotiations. IMO, your offer was seen as a lowball to start a process the seller wanted to avoid.

I have willingly overpaid a bit for purchases from & accepted less for sales to Rennlist Members rather than haggle for the best deal for me. As a result, I think I've developed some friendships from those exchanges. In the same vein, an R-lister sent me quite usable take off track tires at no charge (I had to fight w/him to reimburse the UPS charges), another sent me a needed switch w/o charge, I've received & sent copies of various CDs & other items w/o charge. The archives are full of Rennlisters giving away parts that could have been sold here or on eBay.

I've gotten thousands of dollars of benefit from Rennlist, so I figure a few hundred spent/foregone to benefit the community is well spent.

All, of couse, just my $.02 .

Ruairidh

I 100% agree with Kim. Life is just too short otherwise.

Edward

Mark,

I don't know you but since you're asking, I disagree wholheartedly with how the "Seller" conducted this matter. Were he my best friend, brother, complete stranger, or anything in between, I would say the same: that his taking "offense" was out of line. Following your correspondence, I found you to be completely reasonable given that:

a) you had bought a bumper for that price
b) you had asked him what, twice ?? for a price
c) you had tried to make amends after his initial "offense"

And to the "Seller," should you be following this thread, I think you have fully Chosen to be offended here. Re-read the correspondence between the two of you with an objective eye, and I hope you will find that perhaps you over-reacted a bit. Peace to you both!


Edward

chris walrod

If a seller has no idea what he(or she) wants for something, dont advertise it until you do!!!

Everybody has a price they would sell anything (well almost anything) for.

From what I read Mark, I took it as this seller was fishing to get a unreasonably high offer? I dont know. Like others have said, its hard to extract emotion from an email.

As an aside, I'll give you $200 for your green bumper.....

Mark in Hermosa

Thanks all. GratefulJED...too funny.

Dan:

I agree. The seller is not a rennlist member, or I have a feeling this would have gone a lot better. The bumper I bought for $100 was from a Rennlist member. He bought it for $100 and gave it to me only because the color matched my car (selfless). I gave him an extra $100 as a thank you for him and his girlfriend to go to dinner ($10 says she spent it...).

I have sold a few things to a few members and it seemed like a favor between two friends, more than anything.

SOOOO, back to the question (or one of them) at hand, what is this bumper worth?????

Jeff 993TT

Well, here are some more data points:

a) They are on ebay for $650 new
b) The chin spoiler ( if OEM ) costs about $800 new

But since you are not interested in the chin spoiler, that's actually a negative to you.

So it's probably worth around $300 to you, but for somebody who wants the chin spoiler, it's probably worth around $600.

Too bad you can't seperate the chin spoiler, because I'd be interested in just that one piece. But I've heard that it's glued onto the bumper and can't be seperated easily. Or can it?

Anir

Mark,

Personally, I would not deal with this seller - at any price. He seems like a strange dude, and a terrible businessman to boot. I'm not surprised to hear that he is not a Rennlist member.

I think you handled yourself in an appropriate manner.