Tom W

I'm doing my research and trying to decide what sway bars to get when I upgrade my suspension. At the moment I'm planning on PSS9's. I debating between the M030 bars and the RS bars.

How hard/easy is it to adjust the RS bars? The adjustability of the RS bars are a positive feature, but it's a question of ease - camber is adjustable, but not something most of us can or will adjust.

My car is a daily driver. I want to know if I will be able to adjust the bars before an event while I'm changing the wheels from street to sticky or if it's a more complex task. Jacks I have, lift I don't. Is it a 10 minute or 2 hour job? Special tools required? One person or two?

chris walrod

unfortunately when camber is adjusted, the toe needs to be reset as well. a camber tool is easy to make. its basically a flat piece bar stock approx 17" long with digital level (inclinometer) attached to the bar stock. you must first zero the digital level on a known flat horizontal surface of the car and then subtract 90 degrees from what you read on the display.

because of caster, the wheels have to be very straight and centered.

it would be cool to have a fixture of some sort that affixes to the car front and rear with fishing line connecting the two being able to check the toe with calipers to the front and rear of each rim.

so much to dream up and so little time.


Chris

Greg Fishman

[quote]Originally posted by chris walrod:
<strong>

it would be cool to have a fixture of some sort that affixes to the car front and rear with fishing line connecting the two being able to check the toe with calipers to the front and rear of each rim.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

You mean like this: (page down to smart strings)<a href="http://www.smartracingproducts.com/ProdCat/AlSuTool/alsutools.htm" target="_blank">http://www.smartracingproducts.com/ProdCat/AlSuTool/alsutools.htm</a>

Matt Vaughan

Kim, to get some additional reach, you can remove the dust guards on the control arm.

Tom W

Kim's right, I don't want to do my own alignment. As Greg points out it could be done, but it's not a simple task.

Kim: once you have the car up on the jack stands, how long to you think it would take to change the setting on both front and rear sways?

Anyone else care to chime in on how long it takes them?

Edward

With regards to the original post by Tom, the RS Sways are easy to adjust, as others have already mentioned. BUT, I also find the M030 Sways provide an excellent, balanced ride, and are significantly less expensive than RS bars, if cost is a consideration. Also, as much as I love getting to the track, I love it considerably more than preppeing/de-prepping the car every time I go. While this is not a concern for anyone with a dedicated car, I'm already taxed with brake fluid/pad change, wheels swap, harness bar & 5pt belts, etc. One more thing to do, albeit relatively simple, doesn't appeal to me especially when the benefit isn't all that much (benefit perhaps greater to those who truly "race").

Tom, I think the most straightforward solution to your understeer issue resides in a good alignment (check archives for good recommendations) and M030 bars. Sure you can adjust the RS ones, but how often/how likely will you really? Just my thoughts, IMHO, of course.

Edward

Eric in Chicago

[quote]Originally posted by Tom W:
<strong>Kim's right, I don't want to do my own alignment. As Greg points out it could be done, but it's not a simple task.

Kim: once you have the car up on the jack stands, how long to you think it would take to change the setting on both front and rear sways?

Anyone else care to chime in on how long it takes them?</strong><hr></blockquote>


Once the car is up in the air, 10-15 mins. you should have a 15mm (or similar) size nut on each end of the drop link, take it off, move the position, tighten, next.

Tom W

Edward: Thanks. You're echoing my concerns in debating the purchase (how much time does it take and how much "better" are RS from M030). I had the car aligned by a race/alignment shop and the handling improved from what it was when I bought the car. One convcern is that they could only get a max of -.5 for the camber on the right front and I'd really like to increase it now that I'm starting to push the limits a bit (and tire wear is a non-issue so far). I doubt I'll go to RS alignment specs as that's probably more aggressive than I need/want in a daily driver.

Eric: Did you ever have the M030's on your cab or did you go direct from the standard cab bars to RS bars? What's your impression of the RS bars on a cab? Do you adjust them much (street to track and back)?

I'm trying to get a feel for the difference in the bars. I know Matt (H20N00) has the M030 bars on his cab and is very happy with the improvement.

Eric in Chicago

Tom,
I went from stock to adj. bars, I started out with the Weltmeister RS spec bars and have now moved on to the Racers Group bars. I think they feel great on the car, yes, I do adjust them depending on the track and I have had fun "tweeking" the set up this track season. I dont adjust them for street vs track rather track vs track. I think if your ready to crawl under the car and change the settings for different track types, then your ready for RS bars. Most people I know that have the adj. bars, mount them and leave them set. Kind of a waste of money when the ROW bars would probaly probaly give them the same results for less money.

SundayDriver

I think the greatest benefit to the RS bars is that you can tune the car the way you want on a semi-permanent basis. Once set, there really isn't much need to change it for each track unless you are going for that last second of laptime. If you are doing that, then you should be in a dedicated race car with full cage.

When I had my TT, I set it up with the bars to where I wanted it and didn't change it for different tracks. I could fine tune with tire pressure. That was more than adequate as I rarely drive a street car over 8/10ths on the track.

Also, unless you are looking for a very tail happy car, you can do the RS rear and the M030 front. That will get the car looser than most people would like.

Eric in Chicago

Mark ,
I agree, once you have found the correct setting, you pretty much leave it alone, but getting to that point, big track vs small track, tight vs open ect. I have experimented all summer to get it right. I do move the settings when going to Gingerman, small tight track as the settings I use for Road America, big open track will not give me the feel I'm looking for. That said, I think most people would be good with ROW bars.

Edward

Tom,

-.5 camber from the right front??? This is max??
What did the shop say? My car is stock (with M030 sways whcih I like a lot) and I've got about -.8 in the front (can't remember exactly...gotta look), but I've still got room to move. Is there another problem with the right-front?

Edward

Tom W

Mark & Eric: I think I would probably adjust a bit more frequently. I'd like a nice loose rear end for autocross to make those thigh turns easier to get around (I'm working on "helping" it around using trail braking). I would not want as loose a rear end at the track where spinning has more significant consequences!

Edward:
Yes, my printout noted that -0.5 was the max for the right front (and left front was set to match). I didn't really pay attention at the time but have thought about it more recently as I was looking for how to get handling improvements. I've wondered if this might be due to the strut tower brace not allowing more movement and the guy doing the alignment not knowing it was there.

I'm hoping to add PSS9's and the sway bars this winter and really want to go to more camber (-0.8 to -1.0) and was somewhat worried that this would require addition of monoballs (yet more money) if there was not a simple fix to allow dialing in more camber.