bcameron59

I completed a top end rebuild recently and am hearing significant ticking noise.

All lifters were replaced during the rebuild. After the 10 minute break in, I changed filter and oil (Mobil1 15W50), then ran two more 20 minute sessions to investigate the ticking; cycled through various revs with blips up to 5500 rpm, but this didn't resolve the ticking. Using a mechanic's stethoscope I've isolated it to the right (passenger) side, loudest on the exhaust valves. I reckon either there's one or more bad lifters, or a problem with oil flow to them.

I'm concerned about oil flow because during reassembly, I managed to shred the o-ring for the oil temp/pressure "lid" while fitting it into the crankcase (PET illustration 101-10, pos 34). It was impossible to tell if I got all the pieces (see pic below) so I'm concerned one might have got loose and is plugging oil flow, causing the noisy lifters (and perhaps worse).

I have now removed the right side exhaust valve cover to check for DOA lifters or plugged rocker oil galleries. Cylinder 6 rocker & lifter are fine, although they were quite noisy when running. However, the oil feed aperture on the cam carrier is too small and deep to see if there's any upstream blockage.

Before moving on to cylinders 4 & 5, I'd like to visually inspect the oil flow from the aperture to see if there's any indications of blockage. I'm thinking of doing this by having my helper crank the engine so I can watch how much oil squirts out of the aperture.

My question:
If I crank the engine with a rocker assembly removed, am I going to break anything? I would do this one cylinder and valve at a time, with the DME relay pulled so it doesn't actually fire up.

I figure as long as the rocker's removed, I'm not pushing valves into the heads so there should be no interference with the pistons. Obviously there'll be some mess with oil squirting... at least, I hope so.

Is this logic solid, or am I missing something? For example, any issue with compression being released back into the intake when the intake valve opens, since the exhaust valve won't open with the rocker removed?

I can't think of any reason why this is a bad idea, but would like to tap the collective wisdom of the board before I proceed. TIA for your input!

Ed Hughes

Damn, good luck chasing this down. I'm with you, I can't think of anything that could be harmed with the exhaust valve of one cyl disabled, and only cranking on the starter.

Garth S

Even if small shredded bits of that O-ring dropped into the crankcase via the pressure sensor well, is that not on the oil return side? ie., the scavenging pump and filter(s) will see that oil before it is supplied under pressure to the valve train.

From my modest experience, hydraulic lifters retain their operating height for quite some time once pumped up: if you are removing the right bank exhaust rockers, why not measure the heights? - and compare to even the old ones pulled previously.

A brief cranking of the engine as described should not harm anything - a few 'wuffs' of compressed air back into the intake is not going to launch it into space. However, were the oil gallery plugged at one cylinder, I'd first look for scuffing on the lifter/rocker.

You may save yourself some grief by having a couple more new lifters and swapping one in starting at #6.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Brian,

Perchance, did you soak the lifters in oil before installing them into the rockers?

If not, these things can take some time to pump up and will be "ticky" until that happens. I'm not you'll know anything definitive with your testing methodology here so I'd tell you not to be overly concerned until you drive it several miles and get the engine up to operating temperature.

We do this on our engine dyno and they get nice & quiet once things are warmed up.

trophy

Thinking out loud here Brian...

I cannot see any damage being caused this, I would relieve pressure by also removing the sparkplug for the cylinder you are testing.

Turning over the car to watch oil flow will be extremely messy, the amount of flow going to cams and lifters is quite considerable and under pressure (remember the oiling system is operating at up 5+ bar (70+ psi). With the rocker and rocker shaft out the oil will be squirting directly away from the engine, Safety Glasses will be a must as will something to catch/contain the oil.

Other options are to replace suspect lifters with known working ones, maybe the ones originally from your engine, or you could use a modded mechanical lifter in its place.

nine9six

I dont claim the wisdom of either of you gentlemen, but have you performed this check before, so that you have a baseline idea as to how much oil should be exiting the apature?

Is there a measurement specification for oil flow or pressure that you can gage for proper flow, or potential blockage at the apature?

Visual indications are very subjective and most likely not very reliable, unless you have a plethroa of experinece via the visual inspection method being suggested.

Im not trying to rain on your parade, just wondering how you will know what is clear as opposed to what may be partially blocked?
Im jus sayin...

WoW! in the time it took to write a response, only Ed Hughes had responed to the OP!!! You guys are FAST!

OverBoosted28

Why aren't you using the Mobil 1 V-Twin 20/w50?

frankv

Brian, fwiw I had the lifters changed on mine last year and had the same thing happen, a couple on the right exhaust side were still ticking. We ended up replacing them again with new lifters and all has been good since. I figure that there were a couple of bad ones in the pile.

Regards, Frank

shadow993

I replaced my lower lifters and they ticked. I had to take them out and inject oil into them. After that all was good.

bcameron59

Thanks for the replies, glad to hear from several of the Board stalwarts! Answers to some of the questions:

"is that not on the oil return side?"
Diagram shows pressure / temp sensors (#6) upstream of cam/rockers (#11) etc (see pic below). When I ripped open the oil filters after break-in there was lots of other krud, but no o-ring bits. Unfortunately, I didn't think to drain the break-in oil through a strainer to catch any bits; that oil is long gone to the recycler.

"why not measure the heights?"
I've pulled lifter #3 on the left (quiet) side, height is identical with #6. However, #6 can be easily compressed by finger, whereas #3 won't budge. I'll swap them and see if that gives any more clues whether #6 is bad, or oil starved.

"look for scuffing on the lifter/rocker"
They're about the same on both sides, and about the same as when they were out. Except not as shiny, because they're covered with oil. Mind you, I've got less than an hour on the engine, so if oil flow were impeded it might not show up yet as scuffing.

"did you soak the lifters in oil?"
Yes, but maybe not long enough - only overnight before installing the next morning. And they've sat since before Christmas, and might have drained out. During investigation the motor reached operating temp, and some of the lifters did quiet down after revving to 5500 a few times.

"Thinking out loud"
Steven, excellent idea to remove the sparkplug, should have thought of that, d'oh. Re: making a mess, I've seen your immaculate garage: I would eat off that floor. I suspect what you call "extremely messy" would pale in comparison to my Exxon Valdez experience at break-in... not one, but two, major leaks. I am now an expert in oil spill cleanup, if not prevention. Of course, safety glasses were part of the plan, along with shrouding off the heat exchanger and brake discs, and keeping gallons of kitty litter on hand.

"what is clear as opposed to what may be partially blocked?"
Excellent question. Really I just hoped to verify that the line isn't completely blocked, and not wildly different from the (good) left side.

"why not Mobil V-Twin 20-50?"
This is the frozen wasteland of the North. The real question is, why not 10-40. I'm trying to get it on the road before spring, wife wants to go to Emerald Lake resort and skiing at Lake Louise in style...

Anyway, thanks to the reassurance from all, I did the squirt test and nothing blew up. It wasn't a high pressure firehose squirt, but a few cranks of the engine pushed through a good 1/4 litre. Left and right are the same as far as I can tell. So it doesn't look like I have to pull the engine apart to clean out oil galleries, yay.

Next step, I'll soak the noisy lifters, then run the engine for longer time. If that doesn't work, I'll replace them.

Shadow993, how did you inject the oil when you did yours?

CalvinC4S

New lifters don't usually pump up until you go out and really drive it.
The 5k blips are not going to do it.

Top-Gun

I'm going through something similar, replaced exhaust lifters last winter and the drivers side still ticks.
I put ~500 miles of varied driving on them and no sign of quieting down. I've started to suspect a noisy valve guide but its possible we both recieved new lifters that are just loud/defective somehow.

I'm digging into mine again this winter, I'll be watching this thread to see what you find.

I too let mine soak in oil for a few days prior to install; I considered injecting them using a plastic syringe but I was concerned it would blow the plunger out of them.

Perhaps INA made a crappy batch of these things?

pp000830

You may be looking for love here in the wrong place. Drive the car for a while and see if it quiets down. It could be anything even a small bit of debris in the valve seat that may work its way out over time. Stop taking things apart I say!

trophy

Is your oil level correct? I remember a friends car that had some work done, engine out and out for a number of months. Once it was all back together there was a lifter noise, we checked the oil and It was less than a quart low, however the ticking went away as we were topping up the oil...

bcameron59

I was kinda hoping to resolve the ticking before putting the mufflers and engine compartment blower stuff back together. That way I don't have to pull everything apart again, if lifter(s) end up being bad.

It's going to be a while before I get the car on the road; still working on suspension, brakes, and body cleanup incl. zinc electroplating everything possible as I go. If I'm lucky I can fit in 1/2 day every second week to work on it; yesterday was my first garage day since the week before Christmas.

So is there really a difference between actually driving it, and running the engine while car is up on jack stands?