993Power

Hey Mark thanks extremely for the pics and dynos. Gives me an idea of what I can look to do. I see that you have turned up the boost to 9psi, and I know that the kit comes out of the box I believe 5-6 psi, and the only way to get more boost out of a Supercharger is a bigger pulley. Did you do this ?

While Just like you, ill definetly be experimenting too and hopefully provide dyno sheets when I am done. My friend is porting out the throttle body to get rid of the "step" by the plate and putting a Bigger Plate inside, also, I am adding 3.8 RSR Headers and maybe doing a chip by reprogramming the ECU, to retard the timing a bit more, and bump up the fuel and higher rpm.

Again, thanks for the Help Mark Good luck!

chris

johnfm

Chris

you mean smaller pulley for higher boost (pulley on the blower, not the pulley on th emotor, BTW)


Mark

did PACE do the sandwich intercooler?? It is very small - clearly to retain stock engine lid - but I think this is probably why you need water injection too

993Power

Hey John, thanks for clearing that up for me, I always thought Bigger was better =) hahaha

chris

Mark Budgen

John,

a local specialist made the intercooler against my own designs but I suspect that Pace could probably do a similar job. My wife prefers the standard look hence I had to work out how to fit it all under the standard engine lid. Once you get used to the power the water/methanol usage goes down and hence my dash board refill warning light doesn't come on as much (probably a galloon a month). A larger intercooler would definitely be the way to go if you have the space.

As I force air through the system and don't relie on normal air flows in the confined space heat soak isn't as bad as the size might suggest. I suppose the total core dimensions are probably only 6 by 6 by 6. However if I had the time, money and planned to track it I would probably flip the supercharger outlet around, not sure how, and fit a new tail and larger intercooler across the whole engine width. I've also come to the conclusion that A-W is more risky than A-A. But thats all for the future..

Chris, I use a 2.6" suppercharger pulley and this gives peak boost as 9lb but at redline this drops to 7lb after the intercooler. This characteristic is similar to the car without an intercooler as it gets on cam. Also with this pulley the M90 is at it's limit. I am trying to work out how the 996 gets as much air in with this SC to make the power that it does. They must have worked out a cleaver SC intake system as the peak number of air molecules going in must be about the same as I pump in without something on a M90. They are probably also running better fuel/timing than I can. I need to see if I can make the SC intake resonant at 12-13k SC rpm, any suggestions??? I'm not sure if the SC input characteristics can be made to resonant using something like a Helmholtz resonator.

Please note that my compression is also down to 9.5.

In hindsight if I had the money I would probably have gone with a SoK kit as the screw compressor is more efficient.

Mark.

YellowC4S

I have heard that you lose air conditioning. Is this true?

johnfm

MArk still has his A/C.

MArk

I checked the Pace site and they can make curves and tapered I/C cores. I think this will be the way to go to keep the stock tail - which I also prefer BTW.
Also, do you think that your I/C sizing is losing some boost - what sort of pressure loss are you getting acroos the I/C?

Richard

glad someone has replaced the 7th injector with bigger injectros. Did you just re-chip the DME, or go to something like MoTeC?

I have just e-mailed the guys at SoK to find out if they do a kit - hopefully they will get back to me soon.

graham_mitchell

I like the idea of dropping the 7th injector, upgrading existing injectors and remapping. I already decided to do this if I ever install the kit but it is nice to know that it works.

I would have thought that a Unichip programmable piggy-back computer would be ideal for a custom installation like this. It is inexpensive too.

Johnfm, please share your findings at SoK with us

I am a little torn about the TPC kit. I would much rather that TPC used a whipple/lysholm type supercharger as it has several advantages. I seem to remember that Mark Budgen wrote that in hindsight he would rather have installed a whipple/lysholm type too. This makes me think that it would be better to get it right first time but I have no idea how to go about the custom fabrication required, and how the cost might compare to a kit like TPC's.

johnfm

The main bit of fabrication for the TPC system seems to be:

mounting of the S/C and pulley tensioner
mounting of the S/C itself and
the new inlet.

The rest looks like silicone ducting, though Mark will be the oracle on this one, since he seems to have done a lot of modding on this.

If/when I hear back from SoK, I will report findings.

Mark Budgen

John,

I think I lose 2-3lb at red line but suspect that SC just has to work a little harder ie it has to generate more pressure at it's output. I have a small tool that suggest that the power I lose at the crank to generate the extra head isn't that great, maybe 3-5hp over no intercooler. If pace can make a less restrictive intercooler that would be interesting but given that I get 310ish rwhp that's enough for me for now.

The main part that comes with the TPC kit is the inlet manifold casting that the SC mounts on.

Cheers, Mark.

johnfm

Thanks Mark.

Jack Ennuste

I have driven my car with TCP S/C about a year. May-be the 7,-th injector solution is not perfect, but it works. Earlier models had quite primitive analog unit, but I have Split Second digital computer controlling additional injector. I really don't want to see more torque and power with current setup. Adding power requires upgrading wheels/tires, suspension and possibly brakes. Currently I have 255/40 R17 rear tires and TPC is clearly too much for them.

I don't agree, that main "role" of TPC is intake manifold. I believe that it is R&D and testing, remapping fuel delivery sourcing all components (ducts, filters, computer, pulleys, tensioner, heater bypass, fuel lines, injector, etc)

If I had to improve TCP S/C performance, I'd go for lowered compression. Currently it's about 11,5, normal S/C compression is around 8-9. This requires new pistons, opening the engine and more aggressive alteration of fuel mapping indeed.

nateweiss

Seems i can post now! New meber here - owner of a 1997 993 Targa for just over a year. Currently the car is at Turbo Performance Center outside of Baltimore receiving a supercharger - I will let everyone know how it drives after I pick it up on Saturday!

YellowC4S

Thanx loads Nate, I'm looking forward to hearing about how it turns out. Has anyone done a SC on a C4/C4S? How does it react with the AWD?
Thanx again, in advance,

johnfm

Jack

I didn't suggest that TPC 'just' designed a manifold casting. I agree with your post entirely - R&D, making expensive mistakes, the black box etc etc. Hats off to them. However, we are looking at other ways to continue their good work - like intercoolers, whipple chargers, removing the 7th injector etc.

993Power

Hey guys, I guess what we are saying, is that it's better to not use the 7th injector, due to a failure, or something worst that could blow up or motors. Using a 7th injector is a cost effective way, of giving more fuel, BUT, would be very "risky". What I mean of "risky" is that since the Injector is spraying (usually) by the throttle body about a couple inches away, it would undoubtly not "share" the fuel to all the cyclinders as normally 6 injectors would be firing. I know TPC uses split Second Performance AIC, and I have seen it in action and works very good. Their are other Electronic devices such as HKS AIC, which can control up to 4 injectors seperately, and can use saturated, high or low impedence injectors. But when you go their, your raising the price up, of buying bigger injectors, injector bosses, and so on. RX-7 Twin Turbo's and Toyota Supras have done this for a LONG TIME, adding 2 additional Injectors to give more fuel, instead of upgrading their stock fuel system, which in their case would be cheaper.

Just watch your EGT or A/F.

So I guess in a NUT SHELL, upgrading injectors would be a better way to prevent detonation and actually give more HP. It may actually prove cost efective cheaper, if you do so add more Injectors going the AIC way. I guess that's what TPC did, to save money on their kit. But if it has been working for most people over a years time span, and they havent had any problem at all, then it must be working good for them.

IMHO, adding a Side Air to Air intercooler, next to the supercharger and adding a 10" puller fan to it would be a bit better then Air to Water (no pun intended or making fun of), because you always have to refill it. You could also run a bigger Throttle body, which I am doing Right now Boring it out to 72.5mm and adding a bigger Plate inside. Also add 3.8 RS Headers would also do the trick. Ill keep you guys informed with Dyno's and new things.

Take care

chris