nrubenstein

Argh.

You are trying to conflate two entirely different things. If you think that I'm saying that people should be racing with three point belts, well, I'll just say that I don't think you are actually reading what I wrote.

There are two entirely separate issues here. The first is that you would be nuts to wear a harness on track and not wear a HANS today. The past is pretty much completely irrelevant. Without a HANS or equivalent, your neck is almost completely unprotected. In a street car that does not have a cage, the airbags and seat belts are designed to limit the damage. That's why people don't generally break their necks in crashes on the street (or on track in street cars).

The second issue is the question of what safety equipment actually makes you safer when you are running a street car on the track?

There are a couple levels to this question:
1) In a bone stock car, are you actually safer wearing a helmet? Does the interaction between the helmet and your airbags make you less safe? Is the extra weight added to your head harmful?
2) What is the minimum level of safety equipment necessary to actually make you safer? I said that in a relatively modern car in a DE (i.e. NOT racing!), if I couldn't use a HANS, I'd rather just wear the 3-point.

Again, let me reiterate: I am not talking about racing. When it comes to actual racing safety, I am a great believer in stepping through the FIA handbook. And, of course, the FIA handbook includes HANS.

Mark in Baltimore

To go back to the OP, if my car still had the DAS bar in it, I'd wear a HANS device, no question. Sorry, Juha, based on completely anecdotal observations, I see far more guardrail or tire wall impacts than rollovers. The track rollovers I have seen with 911's either with or without a rollbar have resulted in an intact driver compartment. This is based on over a decade of track experience. (Cue Ken to one up me with his thirty plus years of track work. )

When I go out on the track, even if it's "just" a DE, no matter how hot it is, I wear my suit (with cool shirt) and my HANS device. It's like buying a radar detector and zapping cross country without it because it's too inconvenient. You bought it; why not use it?

Flying Finn

OK, I think we just have to agree to disagree. I'd rather have 6-point harness and full cage.

Mark in Baltimore

+C6.

FullThrottle64

No. Neck injuries are quite common in street collisions; they just aren't as severe since the majority of incidents occur at far lower speeds. Yes, a three-point harness doesn't hold the shoulders to the seat the way a 5/6-point does, but that's only part of the story.

Why are you leaving your airbags active on track? In general, you don't want an airbag to be active during track driving, for a variety of reasons. To my knowledge, none of the serious racing sanctions allow them. DEs may not require deactivation, but that doesn't mean that they are a good idea in that environment.

Given the number of people who swap out their seats for pure racing seats that don't have integral side airbags, I think that suggesting that people rely on the stock safety systems is a bad idea.

Let me also point out that not all HNRs work like the HANS and require a /6-point harness to be effective. There are other systems available that might be a better fit for use in a "pure" street car.

race911

I was paged? Huh? Might be able to find the photos I took at the POC Tribute race about 10 years ago when Stefanowicz and Ollila got tangled going into T2 at Willow while avoiding a backmarker. THAT (Ollila 911/930/935/Whatever) was one of the most destroyed hulks that ever got hauled back to the paddock. Obvioiusly full cage, but likely pre-HANS. Intact driver compartment, no driver injury. At least to the extent he wasn't transported.

Now, contrast that with the 100% stock E36 M3 I had the (dis)pleasure of riding in when we went softly sliding off track at Thunderhill, hitting some ruts and doing a 720. A pillar crushed down in the driver's head. And I'm not sure how arms didn't fly out the windows. All this at 20 (?) MPH.

Nearly infinite number of scenarios out there; and I've seen total POS cars survive rather well, as well as pro-prepped DE cars with properly installed "lite" equipment having a poor outcome.

Ultimately, I say work with PROFESSIONALS to acheive your comfort/risk level.

Juha G

How about those collapsed roofs? This 997 GT2 owner got his handed over today in Helsinki:

seeq

HANS vs no HANS

trophy

Boy does that video show the benefit of the Hans, thanks for posting.

e9stibi

For me it is easy:

3 point harness -> no HANS
6 point harness -> HANS

Someone should not drive 6 pt harness without a HANS ... But this is my risk management and shared by a lot of pro coaches on my race tracks.