Porsche 993: a 911 lost in translation
07-14-2013, 12:20 AM
#46
RL Community Team
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07-14-2013, 12:22 AM
#47
Earned it w/ a few too many :beers: I suppose.Unless you're female I'll assuredly pass on that offer.
You have certifiably terrible taste in automobile design.
07-14-2013, 03:28 AM
#50
07-14-2013, 03:39 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
What's next, your dad can beat up Mongrelcat's dad?
I'd offer you a shovel, but you seem to be doing pretty good on your own.
07-17-2013, 01:50 PM
#52
"Ugly Duckling" Explanations
The 964 and 996 911s were transition cars. The 964 911 transitioned from 3.2-L engines and torsion bar suspensions, to 3.6-L engines and coilover suspensions (I do miss the front fenders from the late 80s 911s and 964s though!). The 996 transitioned from air-cooled to water-cooled engines. If we recall the Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale, the ugly duckling "transforms" into a beautiful swan. Since we're 993 owners on this forum, I could say the "swan" is the 993
I know it's only your opinion, but I disagree with it about the 964. Yes, I agree the 996 was a visual trainwreck, but I think the 964 was a great looking 911. In fact, although I prefer the 993 from the rear, I think the 964 front end is better looking than the 993 with those great 964 pontoon torpedo upright headlights.
To each his own of course, but I love the 964 and the way it looks. From the responses to your comment, I see I'm far from alone
To each his own of course, but I love the 964 and the way it looks. From the responses to your comment, I see I'm far from alone
07-17-2013, 03:56 PM
#53
RL Community Team
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I have owned an 86 Carrera and now a 993 yes certain characteristics are lost in translation. but this has not proven to always be a bad thing.
The 86 did not hove power steering so it had great road feel - better than the 993 but a little more work when parking.
The 86 had an quirky mechanical shift linkage requiring precise adjustment and a certain touch to guide it between gears - 993 shifts as easy as a Toyota.
The 86 had synchros that were a lot more rugged than the 993 but required a more leisurely shifting style to use to shift smoothly.
The 86 had torsion bar suspension so a lot of road feedback & vibration came up through the seat of you pants - not so much with the 993
The 86 Air Conditioning did not have the capacity to cool the car when the outside temperature were over 90 Degrees, even with the aftermarket cool kit.
The 86 has 16" wheels and taller tires that gave you plenty of roll-over warning in feel and sound as you approached the grip limit of the car. Not so with the 993. Very little feedback as to when the tires will let go and a slide begins
And the big one .. You never had to worry about what would happen in the 86 when you pushed it beyond its grip limit in a turn, its *** was always going to come around. The 993 seems to sit on the edge between over and under steer.
Andy
The 86 did not hove power steering so it had great road feel - better than the 993 but a little more work when parking.
The 86 had an quirky mechanical shift linkage requiring precise adjustment and a certain touch to guide it between gears - 993 shifts as easy as a Toyota.
The 86 had synchros that were a lot more rugged than the 993 but required a more leisurely shifting style to use to shift smoothly.
The 86 had torsion bar suspension so a lot of road feedback & vibration came up through the seat of you pants - not so much with the 993
The 86 Air Conditioning did not have the capacity to cool the car when the outside temperature were over 90 Degrees, even with the aftermarket cool kit.
The 86 has 16" wheels and taller tires that gave you plenty of roll-over warning in feel and sound as you approached the grip limit of the car. Not so with the 993. Very little feedback as to when the tires will let go and a slide begins
And the big one .. You never had to worry about what would happen in the 86 when you pushed it beyond its grip limit in a turn, its *** was always going to come around. The 993 seems to sit on the edge between over and under steer.
Andy
07-17-2013, 04:27 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
Not true. A T-bar 911 is not always going to come around when you exceed grip. That is often a fun time, and can be controlled by proper driver input.
I have owned an 86 Carrera and now a 993 yes certain characteristics are lost in translation. but this has not proven to always be a bad thing.
The 86 did not hove power steering so it had great road feel - better than the 993 but a little more work when parking.
The 86 had an quirky mechanical shift linkage requiring precise adjustment and a certain touch to guide it between gears - 993 shifts as easy as a Toyota.
The 86 had synchros that were a lot more rugged than the 993 but required a more leisurely shifting style to use to shift smoothly.
The 86 had torsion bar suspension so a lot of road feedback & vibration came up through the seat of you pants - not so much with the 993
The 86 Air Conditioning did not have the capacity to cool the car when the outside temperature were over 90 Degrees, even with the aftermarket cool kit.
The 86 has 16" wheels and taller tires that gave you plenty of roll-over warning in feel and sound as you approached the grip limit of the car. Not so with the 993. Very little feedback as to when the tires will let go and a slide begins
And the big one .. You never had to worry about what would happen in the 86 when you pushed it beyond its grip limit in a turn, its *** was always going to come around. The 993 seems to sit on the edge between over and under steer.
Andy
The 86 did not hove power steering so it had great road feel - better than the 993 but a little more work when parking.
The 86 had an quirky mechanical shift linkage requiring precise adjustment and a certain touch to guide it between gears - 993 shifts as easy as a Toyota.
The 86 had synchros that were a lot more rugged than the 993 but required a more leisurely shifting style to use to shift smoothly.
The 86 had torsion bar suspension so a lot of road feedback & vibration came up through the seat of you pants - not so much with the 993
The 86 Air Conditioning did not have the capacity to cool the car when the outside temperature were over 90 Degrees, even with the aftermarket cool kit.
The 86 has 16" wheels and taller tires that gave you plenty of roll-over warning in feel and sound as you approached the grip limit of the car. Not so with the 993. Very little feedback as to when the tires will let go and a slide begins
And the big one .. You never had to worry about what would happen in the 86 when you pushed it beyond its grip limit in a turn, its *** was always going to come around. The 993 seems to sit on the edge between over and under steer.
Andy
07-17-2013, 11:42 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
We knew it was coming from the 935 days. Then again, look how long it took them to get a street ready version of PDK in the cars, relative to first installation in a 962.
Wow.
Some 964, and by extension retrofit 993s, have non-hydraulic assist fitted. I'll take a hydraulic assist 964/993 10 times out of 10 at the limit, mainly from geometry issues.
741/901/915/930 (not to mention some of the front engine cars) Porsche synchros are most definitely NOT more robust than the cone, Borg Warner synchros of the G50, etc.
Semi trailing arm suspension architecture is more responsible for NVH, than anything else. "Torsion bar" 911 trailing arms-->964 trailing arms is not nearly as big a step as 964 trailing arms-->993 subframe.
Plenty of 964/993 had 16" wheels fitted. Guarantee you that running a 225/245X16 R compound will ride firmer than an all-season 205/255X17. And I can't think of any then-current 16" tire where rollover was an issue at anything approaching proper inflation pressure.
And finally, I can't even get my head around that last sentence. Sorry. I'm well over 30 years into these things of every air cooled variant you can imagine. All, when driven on limit (meaning NOT on the street), are driven on the rear tire's slip angle. Any 911 that can't be driven that way has a mechanical problem, either merely in setup or poorly "upgraded" components.
I have owned an 86 Carrera and now a 993 yes certain characteristics are lost in translation. but this has not proven to always be a bad thing.
The 86 did not hove power steering so it had great road feel - better than the 993 but a little more work when parking.
The 86 had an quirky mechanical shift linkage requiring precise adjustment and a certain touch to guide it between gears - 993 shifts as easy as a Toyota.
The 86 had synchros that were a lot more rugged than the 993 but required a more leisurely shifting style to use to shift smoothly.
The 86 had torsion bar suspension so a lot of road feedback & vibration came up through the seat of you pants - not so much with the 993
The 86 Air Conditioning did not have the capacity to cool the car when the outside temperature were over 90 Degrees, even with the aftermarket cool kit.
The 86 has 16" wheels and taller tires that gave you plenty of roll-over warning in feel and sound as you approached the grip limit of the car. Not so with the 993. Very little feedback as to when the tires will let go and a slide begins
And the big one .. You never had to worry about what would happen in the 86 when you pushed it beyond its grip limit in a turn, its *** was always going to come around. The 993 seems to sit on the edge between over and under steer.
Andy
The 86 did not hove power steering so it had great road feel - better than the 993 but a little more work when parking.
The 86 had an quirky mechanical shift linkage requiring precise adjustment and a certain touch to guide it between gears - 993 shifts as easy as a Toyota.
The 86 had synchros that were a lot more rugged than the 993 but required a more leisurely shifting style to use to shift smoothly.
The 86 had torsion bar suspension so a lot of road feedback & vibration came up through the seat of you pants - not so much with the 993
The 86 Air Conditioning did not have the capacity to cool the car when the outside temperature were over 90 Degrees, even with the aftermarket cool kit.
The 86 has 16" wheels and taller tires that gave you plenty of roll-over warning in feel and sound as you approached the grip limit of the car. Not so with the 993. Very little feedback as to when the tires will let go and a slide begins
And the big one .. You never had to worry about what would happen in the 86 when you pushed it beyond its grip limit in a turn, its *** was always going to come around. The 993 seems to sit on the edge between over and under steer.
Andy
Wow.
Some 964, and by extension retrofit 993s, have non-hydraulic assist fitted. I'll take a hydraulic assist 964/993 10 times out of 10 at the limit, mainly from geometry issues.
741/901/915/930 (not to mention some of the front engine cars) Porsche synchros are most definitely NOT more robust than the cone, Borg Warner synchros of the G50, etc.
Semi trailing arm suspension architecture is more responsible for NVH, than anything else. "Torsion bar" 911 trailing arms-->964 trailing arms is not nearly as big a step as 964 trailing arms-->993 subframe.
Plenty of 964/993 had 16" wheels fitted. Guarantee you that running a 225/245X16 R compound will ride firmer than an all-season 205/255X17. And I can't think of any then-current 16" tire where rollover was an issue at anything approaching proper inflation pressure.
And finally, I can't even get my head around that last sentence. Sorry. I'm well over 30 years into these things of every air cooled variant you can imagine. All, when driven on limit (meaning NOT on the street), are driven on the rear tire's slip angle. Any 911 that can't be driven that way has a mechanical problem, either merely in setup or poorly "upgraded" components.
07-18-2013, 12:53 AM
#56
Race Car
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I'd be curious to know how many miles race911 has logged in 2-wheel-drive 993s, just as a point of reference.
P.S. thanks for the reminder that the 993 was designed for the 16 in wheels!
P.S. thanks for the reminder that the 993 was designed for the 16 in wheels!
07-18-2013, 01:09 AM
#57
07-18-2013, 01:13 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
So, what was the question?
Miscellaneous Laguna session on 5 year old Hoosiers. Nothing happening until about 4:30.
