alignment at new shop...not feeling it really
07-01-2013, 10:18 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
alignment at new shop...not feeling it really
got spoiled by Joel Reiser when I first got the 4S. Since he doesn't do customer cars anymore, I've been lucky that I've needed little more than my meager skills can handle. Well, it's been 18K miles since my last hubstand alignment...a scant 18 or so months ago... Anyway, new rubber all around, figured it was time for a check. I got almost 18K out of the last set of rears, but with just 10K on the fronts...they were wearing a little funny. Car drove good still, but just not as sharp.
Anyway, my new shop choices were originally a minimun of 3 hours away, or 4+. There is a local shop that does factory authorized service on about every exotic you can mention, but I had a very bad service done many, many years ago by them...and swore I'd never return.
Well, I know more than one Pcar guy who swears by this shop, even a few 993 guys. Hell, they're only 35 minutes away, so I gotta give them another chance...right?
Schedule the alignment almost 3 weeks ago, call to confrim all is still on schedule this morning. I'll be there by 5pm, I trust you'll have your most experienced guy perform the alignment, etc. I'd like to talk to the mechanic, to go over how I use the car, show him the previous settings, etc..."ummm, our mechanics don't talk to the customers" I'm told.
Really? , owner to mechanic is one of the most important relationships with these cars. Instead. I'm told I'll be talking to the owner...then he can relay it to the mechanic. Well, when I get there, the owner isn't around either...only the service advisor who originally didn't know what kinematic toe was, or if they owned or borrowed the special tools that are needed.
Now this guy was pleasant enough, just absolutely not confidence inspiring. Simply do not have anything resembling a good feeling about this at all. I explained my use of the car, it's characteristics(and mileage) on previous tire sets...also written down, went over the corner balance and alignment figures that Joel had, for them to use as a baseline.
I've had three...yes THREE bad service vistis with my other POS daily driver...simple stuff too, in the last two weeks. On the verge of stopping a CC payment to the first shop, two visits and they did more damage. Another big chunk of change today at the dealer(ran out of other options again apparently), and the problem is still there.
Just a world of $hit going on around me, all the vehicle problems, recent elderly aunt finally passed(a blessing), so busy with volunteering for railtrail stuff I fell out of my cycling/diet discipline and finally feel my age...that and sections of my city have been declared disaster area's after the recent and on-going flooding. Christ...everyone is here, FEMA, National Guard, more State Police than you'll ever see...curfew's, Homeland Security, massive restricted travel. A solid 1/3 of the city is still partially under water. Two parks wiped out, one is my singletrack baby...and the Rec Center had the basement flooded, where most of the trail eqpt was stored.
So, obviously the alignment will be for $hit too...can't break the streak.
Really though...the shear sample size of **** poor hack alignments that are reported on this forum alone, is enough to make me drink. Here's hoping this doesn't end up as another one...
Anyway, my new shop choices were originally a minimun of 3 hours away, or 4+. There is a local shop that does factory authorized service on about every exotic you can mention, but I had a very bad service done many, many years ago by them...and swore I'd never return.
Well, I know more than one Pcar guy who swears by this shop, even a few 993 guys. Hell, they're only 35 minutes away, so I gotta give them another chance...right?
Schedule the alignment almost 3 weeks ago, call to confrim all is still on schedule this morning. I'll be there by 5pm, I trust you'll have your most experienced guy perform the alignment, etc. I'd like to talk to the mechanic, to go over how I use the car, show him the previous settings, etc..."ummm, our mechanics don't talk to the customers" I'm told.
Really? , owner to mechanic is one of the most important relationships with these cars. Instead. I'm told I'll be talking to the owner...then he can relay it to the mechanic. Well, when I get there, the owner isn't around either...only the service advisor who originally didn't know what kinematic toe was, or if they owned or borrowed the special tools that are needed.
Now this guy was pleasant enough, just absolutely not confidence inspiring. Simply do not have anything resembling a good feeling about this at all. I explained my use of the car, it's characteristics(and mileage) on previous tire sets...also written down, went over the corner balance and alignment figures that Joel had, for them to use as a baseline.
I've had three...yes THREE bad service vistis with my other POS daily driver...simple stuff too, in the last two weeks. On the verge of stopping a CC payment to the first shop, two visits and they did more damage. Another big chunk of change today at the dealer(ran out of other options again apparently), and the problem is still there.
Just a world of $hit going on around me, all the vehicle problems, recent elderly aunt finally passed(a blessing), so busy with volunteering for railtrail stuff I fell out of my cycling/diet discipline and finally feel my age...that and sections of my city have been declared disaster area's after the recent and on-going flooding. Christ...everyone is here, FEMA, National Guard, more State Police than you'll ever see...curfew's, Homeland Security, massive restricted travel. A solid 1/3 of the city is still partially under water. Two parks wiped out, one is my singletrack baby...and the Rec Center had the basement flooded, where most of the trail eqpt was stored.
So, obviously the alignment will be for $hit too...can't break the streak.
Really though...the shear sample size of **** poor hack alignments that are reported on this forum alone, is enough to make me drink. Here's hoping this doesn't end up as another one...
07-01-2013, 10:31 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Sadly, we're the niche within the niche.
And I do NOT get how most of these shops run. I'm almost counting the days until I'm "retired" again and have my little shop space with an alignment machine + all the goodies, and tire/wheel equipment. I know I'm not going to lack for business..........
I'll post up again what I commented on elsewhere earlier today--that a K-toe check/adjustment is a necessary part of an alignment on these cars, no matter what a "30 year experienced Porsche mechanic" claims. He's not buying your next pair of rear tires inside 10k miles, is he?
And I do NOT get how most of these shops run. I'm almost counting the days until I'm "retired" again and have my little shop space with an alignment machine + all the goodies, and tire/wheel equipment. I know I'm not going to lack for business..........
I'll post up again what I commented on elsewhere earlier today--that a K-toe check/adjustment is a necessary part of an alignment on these cars, no matter what a "30 year experienced Porsche mechanic" claims. He's not buying your next pair of rear tires inside 10k miles, is he?
07-01-2013, 10:31 PM
#3
Drifting
Wow, I don't even think I should respond to this post for fear of bad luck transferring. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the bad luck streak will be broken with your new alignment.
07-01-2013, 10:49 PM
#5
Seared
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I'll post up again what I commented on elsewhere earlier today--that a K-toe check/adjustment is a necessary part of an alignment on these cars, no matter what a "30 year experienced Porsche mechanic" claims. He's not buying your next pair of rear tires inside 10k miles, is he?
Thankfully the guy I've used for the last 7+ years has his own k-tool and is an air-cooled nut.
Andreas
07-01-2013, 11:13 PM
#6
Magdaddy - Sorry to hear this. I hope you can get your arms around this crap and put it in its place. Balance is key, a bike ride can do wonders.
race911 - After coming across this again, I have to add the reply that I got from a local independent, supposedly one of the best here in MN, when I asked the owner if he had the tools to set kinematic toe. "Why?" I assume that means he doesn't have the tool...
race911 - After coming across this again, I have to add the reply that I got from a local independent, supposedly one of the best here in MN, when I asked the owner if he had the tools to set kinematic toe. "Why?" I assume that means he doesn't have the tool...
07-02-2013, 12:18 AM
#7
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A bit of OT - what is Joel doing these days? Has he shut down the shop and just works on his own, or ? (just curious, took the Anderson/Woods engine rebuilding course which he attended years ago..).
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07-02-2013, 12:45 AM
#8
Rennlist Member
(Go down memory lane in seeing some valued contributors and other enthusiasts who've disappeared over the past couple of years.)
07-02-2013, 12:49 AM
#9
Rennlist Member
07-02-2013, 06:23 AM
#10
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
thanks for the reply's guys...posted after a couple of beers and a late dinner-post FEMA meeting downtown for updates on flooding. Sorry about the whiney tone.
07-02-2013, 07:58 AM
#11
got spoiled by Joel Reiser when I first got the 4S. Since he doesn't do customer cars anymore, I've been lucky that I've needed little more than my meager skills can handle. Well, it's been 18K miles since my last hubstand alignment...a scant 18 or so months ago... Anyway, new rubber all around, figured it was time for a check. I got almost 18K out of the last set of rears, but with just 10K on the fronts...they were wearing a little funny. Car drove good still, but just not as sharp.
Anyway, my new shop choices were originally a minimun of 3 hours away, or 4+. There is a local shop that does factory authorized service on about every exotic you can mention, but I had a very bad service done many, many years ago by them...and swore I'd never return.
Well, I know more than one Pcar guy who swears by this shop, even a few 993 guys. Hell, they're only 35 minutes away, so I gotta give them another chance...right?
Schedule the alignment almost 3 weeks ago, call to confrim all is still on schedule this morning. I'll be there by 5pm, I trust you'll have your most experienced guy perform the alignment, etc. I'd like to talk to the mechanic, to go over how I use the car, show him the previous settings, etc..."ummm, our mechanics don't talk to the customers" I'm told.
Really? , owner to mechanic is one of the most important relationships with these cars. Instead. I'm told I'll be talking to the owner...then he can relay it to the mechanic. Well, when I get there, the owner isn't around either...only the service advisor who originally didn't know what kinematic toe was, or if they owned or borrowed the special tools that are needed.
Now this guy was pleasant enough, just absolutely not confidence inspiring. Simply do not have anything resembling a good feeling about this at all. I explained my use of the car, it's characteristics(and mileage) on previous tire sets...also written down, went over the corner balance and alignment figures that Joel had, for them to use as a baseline.
I've had three...yes THREE bad service vistis with my other POS daily driver...simple stuff too, in the last two weeks. On the verge of stopping a CC payment to the first shop, two visits and they did more damage. Another big chunk of change today at the dealer(ran out of other options again apparently), and the problem is still there.
Just a world of $hit going on around me, all the vehicle problems, recent elderly aunt finally passed(a blessing), so busy with volunteering for railtrail stuff I fell out of my cycling/diet discipline and finally feel my age...that and sections of my city have been declared disaster area's after the recent and on-going flooding. Christ...everyone is here, FEMA, National Guard, more State Police than you'll ever see...curfew's, Homeland Security, massive restricted travel. A solid 1/3 of the city is still partially under water. Two parks wiped out, one is my singletrack baby...and the Rec Center had the basement flooded, where most of the trail eqpt was stored.
So, obviously the alignment will be for $hit too...can't break the streak.
Really though...the shear sample size of **** poor hack alignments that are reported on this forum alone, is enough to make me drink. Here's hoping this doesn't end up as another one...
Anyway, my new shop choices were originally a minimun of 3 hours away, or 4+. There is a local shop that does factory authorized service on about every exotic you can mention, but I had a very bad service done many, many years ago by them...and swore I'd never return.
Well, I know more than one Pcar guy who swears by this shop, even a few 993 guys. Hell, they're only 35 minutes away, so I gotta give them another chance...right?
Schedule the alignment almost 3 weeks ago, call to confrim all is still on schedule this morning. I'll be there by 5pm, I trust you'll have your most experienced guy perform the alignment, etc. I'd like to talk to the mechanic, to go over how I use the car, show him the previous settings, etc..."ummm, our mechanics don't talk to the customers" I'm told.
Really? , owner to mechanic is one of the most important relationships with these cars. Instead. I'm told I'll be talking to the owner...then he can relay it to the mechanic. Well, when I get there, the owner isn't around either...only the service advisor who originally didn't know what kinematic toe was, or if they owned or borrowed the special tools that are needed.
Now this guy was pleasant enough, just absolutely not confidence inspiring. Simply do not have anything resembling a good feeling about this at all. I explained my use of the car, it's characteristics(and mileage) on previous tire sets...also written down, went over the corner balance and alignment figures that Joel had, for them to use as a baseline.
I've had three...yes THREE bad service vistis with my other POS daily driver...simple stuff too, in the last two weeks. On the verge of stopping a CC payment to the first shop, two visits and they did more damage. Another big chunk of change today at the dealer(ran out of other options again apparently), and the problem is still there.
Just a world of $hit going on around me, all the vehicle problems, recent elderly aunt finally passed(a blessing), so busy with volunteering for railtrail stuff I fell out of my cycling/diet discipline and finally feel my age...that and sections of my city have been declared disaster area's after the recent and on-going flooding. Christ...everyone is here, FEMA, National Guard, more State Police than you'll ever see...curfew's, Homeland Security, massive restricted travel. A solid 1/3 of the city is still partially under water. Two parks wiped out, one is my singletrack baby...and the Rec Center had the basement flooded, where most of the trail eqpt was stored.
So, obviously the alignment will be for $hit too...can't break the streak.
Really though...the shear sample size of **** poor hack alignments that are reported on this forum alone, is enough to make me drink. Here's hoping this doesn't end up as another one...
07-02-2013, 07:07 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
So...again, off to new shop. They call this morning and the owner asks me if I have noticed a pulling sensation both left and right after the initial return to straight...turn left, back to straight...car pulls left, turn right, back to straight, car pulls to right. Again, I get a rear tail wag sensation...car just doesn't feel planted.
The owner tells me that the front monoballs are frozen, and that is the problem. This is his diagnosis, after initial test drive-up on the lift VISUAL inspection. They can not do an alignment, because that would make the situation worse. He explains to me that the top monoballs move under cornering, and their being frozen is the problem. They need to be replaced he tells me. We agree for him to look into replacement, and I tell him I will also.
I enquire about servicing them, clean up, etc...he says replacement, as there is severe corrosion. Anyway, suspension set-up is full H&R system-struts-front monoballs, and matching sways. The PO installed them 33K miles ago, on 11/09. The car isn't driven in winter conditions here in Central New York, but does see clean winter road use occasionally, so salt-sand, etc is out there.
I text Joel Reiser my previous mechanic...never seen it before he says, call my other local Pcar tech-now an indy who doesn't have an alignment machine...he's never heard of that happening, contact H&R...they say "what?" stainless ball in an aluminum socket...how is corrosion a problem. H&R wants to see a pic of the condition, they give me their email.
I call back the shop, tell them that H&R wants to see the corrosion. Ask how stainless and aluminum can rust up...are you sure it isn't serviceable. They pretty much tell me they don't want to tie a lift up taking it apart...it's their busy time of year, etc.
So, I pretty much tell them...so you just want to throw $$$ new parts at it without really knowing specifically whats corroded just to expidate the service on your end?
You never had a customer bring a car in for a routine service, and discovered that additional work and parts were needed?
Every customer you have with Porsche's, ferrari's, AM's etc...they are factory authorized for about everything...justs lets you install whatever you reccomend without debate, or maybe even bringing in specific parts for your installation?
They simply had no interest in properly investigating the issue. When others I trust, tell me they never heard of monoballs freezing up, well, I believe the folks I know and trust. Also, this shop tells me that the front struts are clearly labelled L&R...and they are installed on the wrong side.
So, questions for those who know
1-can/have you ever seen monoball's freeze?
2-do they really move under turning? I thought they were simply to take camber out when lowering...
3-are the struts(essentially a custom valved Bilstein HD) really L&R specific?
Waiting for H&R to call back, for their response to the issue-shop did send a pic. Then I have to decide where it's going next.
yup...I'm on a roll here folks, I'm on a roll.
07-02-2013, 07:37 PM
#13
Seared
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joe,
What a galactic CF. Sorry.
Front struts are side specific - if for nothing other than where the brake hard line attaches. If you can, take a pic of one of your front struts (local to where it bolts to the wheel bearing carrier) and post it here. Should remove any doubt.
The monoball / spherical strut mount will turn as the strut turns - so I presume the stainless ball will need to rotate without restraint in its aluminum socket (Teflon lined?).
Andreas
What a galactic CF. Sorry.
Front struts are side specific - if for nothing other than where the brake hard line attaches. If you can, take a pic of one of your front struts (local to where it bolts to the wheel bearing carrier) and post it here. Should remove any doubt.
The monoball / spherical strut mount will turn as the strut turns - so I presume the stainless ball will need to rotate without restraint in its aluminum socket (Teflon lined?).
Andreas
07-02-2013, 08:04 PM
#14
update, and more info. Car had a less than sharp feeling, always attributed it to tires on the way out. When the new set went on, the car simply felt a little loose. I've felt that rear wag sensation before, a slight rear end adjustment dialed it out last time.
So...again, off to new shop. They call this morning and the owner asks me if I have noticed a pulling sensation both left and right after the initial return to straight...turn left, back to straight...car pulls left, turn right, back to straight, car pulls to right. Again, I get a rear tail wag sensation...car just doesn't feel planted.
The owner tells me that the front monoballs are frozen, and that is the problem. This is his diagnosis, after initial test drive-up on the lift VISUAL inspection. They can not do an alignment, because that would make the situation worse. He explains to me that the top monoballs move under cornering, and their being frozen is the problem. They need to be replaced he tells me. We agree for him to look into replacement, and I tell him I will also.
I enquire about servicing them, clean up, etc...he says replacement, as there is severe corrosion. Anyway, suspension set-up is full H&R system-struts-front monoballs, and matching sways. The PO installed them 33K miles ago, on 11/09. The car isn't driven in winter conditions here in Central New York, but does see clean winter road use occasionally, so salt-sand, etc is out there.
I text Joel Reiser my previous mechanic...never seen it before he says, call my other local Pcar tech-now an indy who doesn't have an alignment machine...he's never heard of that happening, contact H&R...they say "what?" stainless ball in an aluminum socket...how is corrosion a problem. H&R wants to see a pic of the condition, they give me their email.
I call back the shop, tell them that H&R wants to see the corrosion. Ask how stainless and aluminum can rust up...are you sure it isn't serviceable. They pretty much tell me they don't want to tie a lift up taking it apart...it's their busy time of year, etc.
So, I pretty much tell them...so you just want to throw $$$ new parts at it without really knowing specifically whats corroded just to expidate the service on your end?
You never had a customer bring a car in for a routine service, and discovered that additional work and parts were needed?
Every customer you have with Porsche's, ferrari's, AM's etc...they are factory authorized for about everything...justs lets you install whatever you reccomend without debate, or maybe even bringing in specific parts for your installation?
They simply had no interest in properly investigating the issue. When others I trust, tell me they never heard of monoballs freezing up, well, I believe the folks I know and trust. Also, this shop tells me that the front struts are clearly labelled L&R...and they are installed on the wrong side.
So, questions for those who know
1-can/have you ever seen monoball's freeze?
2-do they really move under turning? I thought they were simply to take camber out when lowering...
3-are the struts(essentially a custom valved Bilstein HD) really L&R specific?
Waiting for H&R to call back, for their response to the issue-shop did send a pic. Then I have to decide where it's going next.
yup...I'm on a roll here folks, I'm on a roll.
So...again, off to new shop. They call this morning and the owner asks me if I have noticed a pulling sensation both left and right after the initial return to straight...turn left, back to straight...car pulls left, turn right, back to straight, car pulls to right. Again, I get a rear tail wag sensation...car just doesn't feel planted.
The owner tells me that the front monoballs are frozen, and that is the problem. This is his diagnosis, after initial test drive-up on the lift VISUAL inspection. They can not do an alignment, because that would make the situation worse. He explains to me that the top monoballs move under cornering, and their being frozen is the problem. They need to be replaced he tells me. We agree for him to look into replacement, and I tell him I will also.
I enquire about servicing them, clean up, etc...he says replacement, as there is severe corrosion. Anyway, suspension set-up is full H&R system-struts-front monoballs, and matching sways. The PO installed them 33K miles ago, on 11/09. The car isn't driven in winter conditions here in Central New York, but does see clean winter road use occasionally, so salt-sand, etc is out there.
I text Joel Reiser my previous mechanic...never seen it before he says, call my other local Pcar tech-now an indy who doesn't have an alignment machine...he's never heard of that happening, contact H&R...they say "what?" stainless ball in an aluminum socket...how is corrosion a problem. H&R wants to see a pic of the condition, they give me their email.
I call back the shop, tell them that H&R wants to see the corrosion. Ask how stainless and aluminum can rust up...are you sure it isn't serviceable. They pretty much tell me they don't want to tie a lift up taking it apart...it's their busy time of year, etc.
So, I pretty much tell them...so you just want to throw $$$ new parts at it without really knowing specifically whats corroded just to expidate the service on your end?
You never had a customer bring a car in for a routine service, and discovered that additional work and parts were needed?
Every customer you have with Porsche's, ferrari's, AM's etc...they are factory authorized for about everything...justs lets you install whatever you reccomend without debate, or maybe even bringing in specific parts for your installation?
They simply had no interest in properly investigating the issue. When others I trust, tell me they never heard of monoballs freezing up, well, I believe the folks I know and trust. Also, this shop tells me that the front struts are clearly labelled L&R...and they are installed on the wrong side.
So, questions for those who know
1-can/have you ever seen monoball's freeze?
2-do they really move under turning? I thought they were simply to take camber out when lowering...
3-are the struts(essentially a custom valved Bilstein HD) really L&R specific?
Waiting for H&R to call back, for their response to the issue-shop did send a pic. Then I have to decide where it's going next.
yup...I'm on a roll here folks, I'm on a roll.
here is a typical monoball set, in the tilted one you can see the teflon band that wears, cheaper ones have narrower thinner bands that wear quicker. Cheaper ones will also have a lower quality steel and looser tolerances. The typical failure modes generates a rattle on bumps.
monoballs are not an appropriate bush for the use you describe
monoballs in the shock tops do turn when front wheels are turned, the monoballs on the horizontal arms if you have them mostly rotate similarly.
there is one monoball on each side in a stock 993 rear suspension, the leading A arm bush is a rubber sealed monoball that can get loose w/ wear, can't imagine it freezing up, but new RS ones are certainly quite stiff and difficult to move by hand.
07-02-2013, 08:20 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
just got off the line with H&R...no seperate parts available...older system. Worse case I need two new complete top units. That being said, he said simply first take them apart clean and lube...and swap struts L&R while your there. Bracketing is different, but functionally the same. Just strange that Protosport, or Joel never noticed.
Well, if they don't clean up...it'll be lots of down time awaiting parts. H&R are still trying to determine compatibility to get me a replacement part number for christ sake...let alone determining available stock on hand. That could be a problem if I decide to take the car to a 2+ hour away shop. I might let the young tech at the dealer(gasp!)look at it first, he has done a handful of 993 alignments. Just so damn hard to arrange return transportation dropping the car off far away.
uggghhhhhhhhhh
Well, if they don't clean up...it'll be lots of down time awaiting parts. H&R are still trying to determine compatibility to get me a replacement part number for christ sake...let alone determining available stock on hand. That could be a problem if I decide to take the car to a 2+ hour away shop. I might let the young tech at the dealer(gasp!)look at it first, he has done a handful of 993 alignments. Just so damn hard to arrange return transportation dropping the car off far away.
uggghhhhhhhhhh