how to make a 993 handle better?
06-04-2013, 12:10 AM
#1
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how to make a 993 handle better?
Hi all, so I did do a search and didn't come up with much. I'm not new to fiddling around with cars to make them handle a bit better, but I am new to my recently acquired '97 993 Targa. Thus far, it has not been a love affair as I already had an expensive repair with the targa, and directly after purchasing the car I put in new suspension and tires as they were shot.
The suspension I went with was the ROW M030s and Koni FSDs, and I changed the front control arm bushings to Elephant Racing regulars---I would have loved to have gone a bit more aggressive but was afraid it would be too low/stiff to be practical in the crappy road area I have.
I am considering a strut tower brace for the front, but holding off on more spending for the (short) time being.
Now I know the 993 is a 15year old car at this time, but I think I must be missing something here in terms of the handling. I can't quite pinpoint the problem, but part of it is this: I feel like every time I am on the highway, and there is a crest/bump etc, after I go over that crest/bump, the steering wheel ?moves a bit side to side, and the car loses its intended direction momentarily.
I'm not driving aggressively in these moments---just driving normally. But frankly I feel like my daily VW wagon inspires more confidence on similar roads, but maybe this is just because I am more adjusted to that car...?
Any thoughts? Or is simply part of the "charm" of owning this car?
Thanks all.
The suspension I went with was the ROW M030s and Koni FSDs, and I changed the front control arm bushings to Elephant Racing regulars---I would have loved to have gone a bit more aggressive but was afraid it would be too low/stiff to be practical in the crappy road area I have.
I am considering a strut tower brace for the front, but holding off on more spending for the (short) time being.
Now I know the 993 is a 15year old car at this time, but I think I must be missing something here in terms of the handling. I can't quite pinpoint the problem, but part of it is this: I feel like every time I am on the highway, and there is a crest/bump etc, after I go over that crest/bump, the steering wheel ?moves a bit side to side, and the car loses its intended direction momentarily.
I'm not driving aggressively in these moments---just driving normally. But frankly I feel like my daily VW wagon inspires more confidence on similar roads, but maybe this is just because I am more adjusted to that car...?
Any thoughts? Or is simply part of the "charm" of owning this car?
Thanks all.
06-04-2013, 12:38 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
With your shock/spring package you're not into the too-low-but-it-looks-cool bump steer zone. So next stop is to consider who did your alignment. You don't mention which brand of tires, or sizes, but pretty much anything sold today is fine for going up and down the road.
For the record, either of mine are as dead solid as you can get on the platform. Even when my 4S had 125K on the factory delivered stuff it was fine on track.
(And none of what you described has a thing to do with "handling.")
For the record, either of mine are as dead solid as you can get on the platform. Even when my 4S had 125K on the factory delivered stuff it was fine on track.
(And none of what you described has a thing to do with "handling.")
06-04-2013, 01:16 AM
#3
Rennlist Member
With your shock/spring package you're not into the too-low-but-it-looks-cool bump steer zone. So next stop is to consider who did your alignment. You don't mention which brand of tires, or sizes, but pretty much anything sold today is fine for going up and down the road.
For the record, either of mine are as dead solid as you can get on the platform. Even when my 4S had 125K on the factory delivered stuff it was fine on track.
(And none of what you described has a thing to do with "handling.")
For the record, either of mine are as dead solid as you can get on the platform. Even when my 4S had 125K on the factory delivered stuff it was fine on track.
(And none of what you described has a thing to do with "handling.")
06-04-2013, 01:31 AM
#4
Nordschleife Master
911s are particularly sensitive to tire pressure as well, in addition to many other variables.
Alignment and corner balance need to be done by someone familiar with 911s, not just any alignment shop.
Search
-suspension
- m030, m033
-Bilstein, koni, KW
Walrod bushings
Sway bar, anti roll bar
Strut brace
Elephant racing
RS,
Tire and wheels
Check posts by Bill Verburg
Suspension is one of the most discussed topics after oil and tires.
Alignment and corner balance need to be done by someone familiar with 911s, not just any alignment shop.
Search
-suspension
- m030, m033
-Bilstein, koni, KW
Walrod bushings
Sway bar, anti roll bar
Strut brace
Elephant racing
RS,
Tire and wheels
Check posts by Bill Verburg
Suspension is one of the most discussed topics after oil and tires.
06-04-2013, 01:58 AM
#5
RL Technical Advisor
JMHO,......
Two things;
1. Of all the Porsches, 993's do NOT suffer fools about alignment and there are damned few people who can do this critical task competently.
2. Worn shocks really destabilize the car and mask its amazing road manners. The OEM Monroes are usually worn out by 35K and since its a slow insidious process, oftentimes people don't realize how bad things have become until new ones are fitted. This usually leads to that "Aha!" moment when you can finally see (and feel) how good these cars are.
From your observations and description, it sounds to me like your alignment is suspect. You didn't post anything about where you live so I'm unable to offer anything specific about who to see in your hometown for a good alignment.
(this is a reminder for readers to post where they live since that's useful information toward getting professional assistance)
Hope this helps a little bit,
Two things;
1. Of all the Porsches, 993's do NOT suffer fools about alignment and there are damned few people who can do this critical task competently.
2. Worn shocks really destabilize the car and mask its amazing road manners. The OEM Monroes are usually worn out by 35K and since its a slow insidious process, oftentimes people don't realize how bad things have become until new ones are fitted. This usually leads to that "Aha!" moment when you can finally see (and feel) how good these cars are.
From your observations and description, it sounds to me like your alignment is suspect. You didn't post anything about where you live so I'm unable to offer anything specific about who to see in your hometown for a good alignment.
(this is a reminder for readers to post where they live since that's useful information toward getting professional assistance)
Hope this helps a little bit,
06-04-2013, 03:31 AM
#6
Rennlist Member
Hey Jibble,
That is not how your car should feel. It should produce a broad grin every time you turn the steering wheel, press the gas or even brake.
Why did you get new control arm bushings? How did you know they were shot?
My C2 needed new shocks when I bought it at 68Kmiles. Bilstein PSS10 transformed the car from skittish, unstable to planted, confidence-inspiring. Key factor was an alignment by a guy who knows 993 rear kinematic toe, front caster etc.
There are so many variables you (and I, if not all of us) really need help. Attending local PCA autocross events has given me access to many knowledgeable folks who have taught me about these cars. Even if you don't compete, it's a fun event to attend.
It could be something as simple as tire pressures but the 993 should always be a joy to drive.
That is not how your car should feel. It should produce a broad grin every time you turn the steering wheel, press the gas or even brake.
Why did you get new control arm bushings? How did you know they were shot?
My C2 needed new shocks when I bought it at 68Kmiles. Bilstein PSS10 transformed the car from skittish, unstable to planted, confidence-inspiring. Key factor was an alignment by a guy who knows 993 rear kinematic toe, front caster etc.
There are so many variables you (and I, if not all of us) really need help. Attending local PCA autocross events has given me access to many knowledgeable folks who have taught me about these cars. Even if you don't compete, it's a fun event to attend.
It could be something as simple as tire pressures but the 993 should always be a joy to drive.
06-04-2013, 04:23 PM
#7
Drifting
It's hard to judge from the description, but i want to say its normal and depends on what you are used to. If you are used to driving with one finger on the wheel on crappy roads, 993 with aftermarket suspension does feel like you have to keep the steering wheel in your hands. It took me a few trips to get used to the steering wheel "jumping" in my hands a bit over certain bumps. Now, I don't even notice that. But when high gets bumpy I tend to hold the wheel a bit tighter.
On even road the car is very well planted and tracks very straight.
When I drive my Benz on crappy bumpy highway it may seem a bit better planted because much less information goes through steering or suspension. It makes the road seem better that it is.
On even road the car is very well planted and tracks very straight.
When I drive my Benz on crappy bumpy highway it may seem a bit better planted because much less information goes through steering or suspension. It makes the road seem better that it is.
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06-04-2013, 06:17 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
I would also be interested in what tires you have and how old they are/mileage. I get some tram-lining in both of mine, but they are setup well and are confidence inspiring even over less-than-perfect roads. Your car will be the same once we figure out what is up.
06-04-2013, 06:29 PM
#9
Race Car
Based on what was done (New Shocks, New Tires and New front bushings) I would say, as alluded to by others, is the alignment.
Any time a crest or bump is encountered causing the suspension to load and unload it causes a dynamic changes in alignment. If something like Kinematic Toe is not equal each side the compression/drooping of the suspension over a crest or bump will cause the rear tires to temporarily see different toe, thus making the car feel like it is moving around (and not in a good way). This is also the same in the front end when castor is not equal side to side.
These cars are very sensitive to alignment settings, especially toe. Do you have a copy of the alignment sheet when you had the new suspension installed? Ask the alignment guys what Kinematic tool they used to check the Kinematic Toe, if they look at you blankly you can bet the alignment was not done right.
I know its crude to ask, however, how much did you pay for the alignment? A cheap alignment is a very good indication that it wasn't done correctly (By cheap I mean anything less that around $200, and even this would be on the very low side).
Any time a crest or bump is encountered causing the suspension to load and unload it causes a dynamic changes in alignment. If something like Kinematic Toe is not equal each side the compression/drooping of the suspension over a crest or bump will cause the rear tires to temporarily see different toe, thus making the car feel like it is moving around (and not in a good way). This is also the same in the front end when castor is not equal side to side.
These cars are very sensitive to alignment settings, especially toe. Do you have a copy of the alignment sheet when you had the new suspension installed? Ask the alignment guys what Kinematic tool they used to check the Kinematic Toe, if they look at you blankly you can bet the alignment was not done right.
I know its crude to ask, however, how much did you pay for the alignment? A cheap alignment is a very good indication that it wasn't done correctly (By cheap I mean anything less that around $200, and even this would be on the very low side).
06-04-2013, 08:24 PM
#10
base level, all the suspension components need to be nominal
you replaced the front A-arm bushes w/ Elephant street, this is a good first step but how about the 10 other bushes that are are in the rear suspension and are likely as bad the ones already replaced?
shocks, check
springs, check
tires? condition and pressures nominal?
next level, you need a competent alignment and corner balance
you replaced the front A-arm bushes w/ Elephant street, this is a good first step but how about the 10 other bushes that are are in the rear suspension and are likely as bad the ones already replaced?
shocks, check
springs, check
tires? condition and pressures nominal?
next level, you need a competent alignment and corner balance
06-04-2013, 11:20 PM
#11
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Hi all, thanks for the numerous answers. I'll try to answer most of the questions.
Car: 97 Targa, 110k+miles.
My location: NYC area (sorry, I've been reading for a while but only recently acquired the 993 and I guess I didn't update my info.
Driving style: not a one finger one the wheel driver.Minimal is left hand at 10oclock as while shifting, but also with sensitive roads, 2 hands at 10 and 2.
Tires: Conti sport contact DWS tires. Mileage at this point about 400miles.
Tire pressure: 35 front, 44 rear.
Bushings: yes, I am aware there are a good number of other bushings on the car, but am working on them slowly (those damn things are quite pricey)--also per several posts, my impression was that the front control arm bushings were the "most important". Also, I was told that if I chose to replace the bushings later, this would require repeat alignment, so I chose to swap them now. Per my shop, the bushings that were replaced were not in horrible condition but had certainly been in there a few years. They were not the original ones as far as they could tell however, as they were not shot. Reportedly other bushings are not horrible either. My complaint of nonconfidence was also present with the old suspension that I picked up the car with 2 months ago (which appeared ?original) with the old bushings, so I don't think that this is the source of the problem.
Alignment and install work: done by a good reputable performance shop that handles mainly VW/audi/BMWs, but does do some Porsches on a regular basis. I have had work done from them before on other cars and they have always been very honest and straight with me at all times. I did receive a copy of their alignment sheet, and listed values below. I can check what tool to align kinematic toe but will need to ask them.
Alignment values Front: Left Right
Camber -0.23deg -0.25deg
Cross Camber 0degrees 02'
Caster 5degree 16' 5 degree 26'
Cross caster -0degrees 10'
Toe 0degree 03' 0 degree 03'
Total Toe 0degree 05'
Alignment values Rear: Left Right
Camber -1deg 08' -1deg 04'
Cross Camber -0degrees 03'
Toe 0degree 09' 0degree 09'
Total Toe -0degrees 10'
Thrust Angle 0 degree 0'
I think NYC993 may be understanding what I'm describing best---perhaps I am simply not used to having such sensitive steering? This is after all, my first true sports car. Other cars were are a 2002 WRX and 2010 VW JettaWagon and although great cars with decent handling, likely not as sensitive to input as the 993.
Thanks again for all the input. I look forward to hearing more input!
Car: 97 Targa, 110k+miles.
My location: NYC area (sorry, I've been reading for a while but only recently acquired the 993 and I guess I didn't update my info.
Driving style: not a one finger one the wheel driver.Minimal is left hand at 10oclock as while shifting, but also with sensitive roads, 2 hands at 10 and 2.
Tires: Conti sport contact DWS tires. Mileage at this point about 400miles.
Tire pressure: 35 front, 44 rear.
Bushings: yes, I am aware there are a good number of other bushings on the car, but am working on them slowly (those damn things are quite pricey)--also per several posts, my impression was that the front control arm bushings were the "most important". Also, I was told that if I chose to replace the bushings later, this would require repeat alignment, so I chose to swap them now. Per my shop, the bushings that were replaced were not in horrible condition but had certainly been in there a few years. They were not the original ones as far as they could tell however, as they were not shot. Reportedly other bushings are not horrible either. My complaint of nonconfidence was also present with the old suspension that I picked up the car with 2 months ago (which appeared ?original) with the old bushings, so I don't think that this is the source of the problem.
Alignment and install work: done by a good reputable performance shop that handles mainly VW/audi/BMWs, but does do some Porsches on a regular basis. I have had work done from them before on other cars and they have always been very honest and straight with me at all times. I did receive a copy of their alignment sheet, and listed values below. I can check what tool to align kinematic toe but will need to ask them.
Alignment values Front: Left Right
Camber -0.23deg -0.25deg
Cross Camber 0degrees 02'
Caster 5degree 16' 5 degree 26'
Cross caster -0degrees 10'
Toe 0degree 03' 0 degree 03'
Total Toe 0degree 05'
Alignment values Rear: Left Right
Camber -1deg 08' -1deg 04'
Cross Camber -0degrees 03'
Toe 0degree 09' 0degree 09'
Total Toe -0degrees 10'
Thrust Angle 0 degree 0'
I think NYC993 may be understanding what I'm describing best---perhaps I am simply not used to having such sensitive steering? This is after all, my first true sports car. Other cars were are a 2002 WRX and 2010 VW JettaWagon and although great cars with decent handling, likely not as sensitive to input as the 993.
Thanks again for all the input. I look forward to hearing more input!
06-04-2013, 11:58 PM
#12
RL Technical Advisor
This one is VERY critical and many shops without a thorough understanding of 993 rear kinematic toe geometry pooh-pooh this one.
Your shop must have either the factory kinematic tool, or the Autometrix kinematic tool to do this correctly. The only other way is to actually measure bump steer at the rear axle, however that's only useful if you have adjustable rear links such as the ERP ones.
Your shop must have either the factory kinematic tool, or the Autometrix kinematic tool to do this correctly. The only other way is to actually measure bump steer at the rear axle, however that's only useful if you have adjustable rear links such as the ERP ones.
06-05-2013, 09:45 AM
#15
Rennlist Member
Handle better....(Long) {As usual from me}
(Suffering from extreme jet lag after 10 days in Europe returning to California having successfully adapted to Euro time, a 9 hour difference...as a result I am up at 4:00 AM and ready to compose long rambling posts)
Sorry to hear about your unfortunate 993 Targa experience and the initial huge repair bill. But on the up side, you have a 993 Targa with a magnificent view through the roof, and really cool wheels, made just for your Targa. There are worse fates...you could be driving a NOVA!
We all know, when we buy a used car, we roll the dice. And sooner or later something serious will break on any car...the day anything is made, it is starting to deteriorate. So maybe your expensive bill is a "get it out of the way" experience. Perhaps you'll see no more events of this nature? Let's hope so.
The only exception I have experienced in the auto world, is my Toyota Prius. It is a 2004 with 215,000 miles and still gets 40 to 42 mpg. And I drive it with my foot to the floor, back and forth from LA to the Central Coast. But one of these days, the "chickens will come home to roost" and I'll get that huge bill...at this point the Prius may go to the scrap yard.
"ROW M030s and Koni FSD" In my experience, the complete M030 (RoW) package, springs, sways, shocks, struts and drop links is an inexpensive, yet hardy suspension. Recall, these are the same shocks and struts that came in the 993 Turbo. I know first hand as my former shop (ANDIAL), sold me the used suspension off of a low mileage Turbo having a suspension upgrade. The struts and shocks are a faded rust color as I recall.
I did add the Turbo 21mm rear sway bar in lieu of the M030 (RoW) 20mm rear bar. I stayed true to the package and installed the 22mm M030 (RoW) front bar. And of course I used the M030 (RoW) springs. This set up provided a dramatic improvement in handling in my experience. I only reason I replaced this suspension, I had a pal selling his PSS9s with ERP front camber plates and rear spring hats for cheap....couldn't pass up the deal. Then off to the track for me to experience the results of the transformation!!! Guess what? The car wasn't any faster after the change...but I have to admit (This was pre-trailer days) the drive to the track was better, as I could drive with soft settings for the street and stiffen the springs for the track.
There is another practice that seems to be an integral part of my make up, that is, buy something for the car, try it out, and if I don't like it, extract it from the car and get its replacement. Sell the old part on Rennlist or E Bay. You may only get $0.50 on the dollar (If you are lucky). This is just the old trial and error approach. As we see in WIKIpedia, "Trial and error is a fundamental method of solving problems.[1] It is characterised by repeated, varied attempts which are continued until success,[2] or until the agent stops trying. It is an unsystematic method which does not employ insight, theory or organised methodology." So as you can imagine, this approach can get expensive.
The biggest factor for a minimized angst ownership experience, is having access to a great Porsche shop. I have been known to drive 2 to 4 hours to go to a shop that I believed truly meet my needs, a shop that shared my passion (Our passion) for these great cars. I nearly drove to Portland OR to have my latest suspension installed by Steve Weiner at Rennsport. Our schedules conflicted.
OK now to the "meat" of the post. Dare I say this at the risk of being misperceived? OK, let's be real here, the KONI FSD is an inexpensive, and somewhat inflexible entry level suspension. I do not believe it has the threads on the shocks and struts to adjust the spring perches if one wants to lower the car past M030 (RoW) ride height.
I have found it is better in the long run to spend a little more initially and get what I really want. This way, assuming the product works to my expectations, every time I get in the car, I am NOT reminded that I bought this cheap, this or that. Damn, had I only spent a little more initially....if you spend "too much", it is a one time event. If you go cheap and it doesn't work out, you are reminded of this every time you drive the car.
Assuming the FSDs are not the issue, what about the tires? Maybe you bought the "wrong" tires? Check out the sport "summer" tires for your car from Tire Rack, a Rennlist sponsor. I have had great luck with Hankook summer sport tires.
Alignment? Has the car been aligned? If you want some feedback on this, post your alignment data on the Forum. For 100% street usage, get a factory recommended alignment. If you are going to track the car, ask for alignment spec advice. You'll get it on this Forum.
Time heals all wounds...the joy of driving your new car will soon brush away the initial bad experience. And know that the 993 car, Targa or otherwise, is a car that handles incredibly well, when set up properly. I got my 1997 car in December of 1999. I love that cars as much today as I did when I first got her. Why that a 13+ year love affair, lots of marriages don't last that long.
Sorry to hear about your unfortunate 993 Targa experience and the initial huge repair bill. But on the up side, you have a 993 Targa with a magnificent view through the roof, and really cool wheels, made just for your Targa. There are worse fates...you could be driving a NOVA!
We all know, when we buy a used car, we roll the dice. And sooner or later something serious will break on any car...the day anything is made, it is starting to deteriorate. So maybe your expensive bill is a "get it out of the way" experience. Perhaps you'll see no more events of this nature? Let's hope so.
The only exception I have experienced in the auto world, is my Toyota Prius. It is a 2004 with 215,000 miles and still gets 40 to 42 mpg. And I drive it with my foot to the floor, back and forth from LA to the Central Coast. But one of these days, the "chickens will come home to roost" and I'll get that huge bill...at this point the Prius may go to the scrap yard.
"ROW M030s and Koni FSD" In my experience, the complete M030 (RoW) package, springs, sways, shocks, struts and drop links is an inexpensive, yet hardy suspension. Recall, these are the same shocks and struts that came in the 993 Turbo. I know first hand as my former shop (ANDIAL), sold me the used suspension off of a low mileage Turbo having a suspension upgrade. The struts and shocks are a faded rust color as I recall.
I did add the Turbo 21mm rear sway bar in lieu of the M030 (RoW) 20mm rear bar. I stayed true to the package and installed the 22mm M030 (RoW) front bar. And of course I used the M030 (RoW) springs. This set up provided a dramatic improvement in handling in my experience. I only reason I replaced this suspension, I had a pal selling his PSS9s with ERP front camber plates and rear spring hats for cheap....couldn't pass up the deal. Then off to the track for me to experience the results of the transformation!!! Guess what? The car wasn't any faster after the change...but I have to admit (This was pre-trailer days) the drive to the track was better, as I could drive with soft settings for the street and stiffen the springs for the track.
There is another practice that seems to be an integral part of my make up, that is, buy something for the car, try it out, and if I don't like it, extract it from the car and get its replacement. Sell the old part on Rennlist or E Bay. You may only get $0.50 on the dollar (If you are lucky). This is just the old trial and error approach. As we see in WIKIpedia, "Trial and error is a fundamental method of solving problems.[1] It is characterised by repeated, varied attempts which are continued until success,[2] or until the agent stops trying. It is an unsystematic method which does not employ insight, theory or organised methodology." So as you can imagine, this approach can get expensive.
The biggest factor for a minimized angst ownership experience, is having access to a great Porsche shop. I have been known to drive 2 to 4 hours to go to a shop that I believed truly meet my needs, a shop that shared my passion (Our passion) for these great cars. I nearly drove to Portland OR to have my latest suspension installed by Steve Weiner at Rennsport. Our schedules conflicted.
OK now to the "meat" of the post. Dare I say this at the risk of being misperceived? OK, let's be real here, the KONI FSD is an inexpensive, and somewhat inflexible entry level suspension. I do not believe it has the threads on the shocks and struts to adjust the spring perches if one wants to lower the car past M030 (RoW) ride height.
I have found it is better in the long run to spend a little more initially and get what I really want. This way, assuming the product works to my expectations, every time I get in the car, I am NOT reminded that I bought this cheap, this or that. Damn, had I only spent a little more initially....if you spend "too much", it is a one time event. If you go cheap and it doesn't work out, you are reminded of this every time you drive the car.
Assuming the FSDs are not the issue, what about the tires? Maybe you bought the "wrong" tires? Check out the sport "summer" tires for your car from Tire Rack, a Rennlist sponsor. I have had great luck with Hankook summer sport tires.
Alignment? Has the car been aligned? If you want some feedback on this, post your alignment data on the Forum. For 100% street usage, get a factory recommended alignment. If you are going to track the car, ask for alignment spec advice. You'll get it on this Forum.
Time heals all wounds...the joy of driving your new car will soon brush away the initial bad experience. And know that the 993 car, Targa or otherwise, is a car that handles incredibly well, when set up properly. I got my 1997 car in December of 1999. I love that cars as much today as I did when I first got her. Why that a 13+ year love affair, lots of marriages don't last that long.