Feedback on the ECU Dr. aka Specialized ECU Repair?
12-28-2012, 04:05 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Alex,
Completely stock engine. K&N air filter. Open exhaust with Cup headers, no heat. I will pull the files to see the curve. If my memory serves me correctly the power follows the varioram starting in the 4500rpm range. This was on different two stock engines over a couple a years of racing. The engine Denis has was mine and has ported modified valves with performance springs and titanium keepers. That engine runs nice and flat over 6k up to 7k with no loss of power. (about 20whp over stock and 25 ft/lbs of torque). I should have held onto it, but I am happy it is being used properly. I could no longer run GTS3 with that engine and I was working on the 3.8 RSR to replace it at the time. (350whp plus now)
Fuel does make a difference as I found out by mistake during a race weekend. I had dyno'd that car at 254whp consistently on 93 octane, but they ran out of 93 at the pumps so I had to dump 5 gals of 100 octane mixed in to make weight during qualifying. I ran 2 secs under the track record and was dyno'd. Car picked up 4 whp and I was 20 lbs under weight. I had to start at the back and run the extra weight (finished second in class and it was a bit of fun getting to the front). It was not worth 2 secs since my qual lap was pretty consistent with the 93octane times. (maybe a tenth better)
Completely stock engine. K&N air filter. Open exhaust with Cup headers, no heat. I will pull the files to see the curve. If my memory serves me correctly the power follows the varioram starting in the 4500rpm range. This was on different two stock engines over a couple a years of racing. The engine Denis has was mine and has ported modified valves with performance springs and titanium keepers. That engine runs nice and flat over 6k up to 7k with no loss of power. (about 20whp over stock and 25 ft/lbs of torque). I should have held onto it, but I am happy it is being used properly. I could no longer run GTS3 with that engine and I was working on the 3.8 RSR to replace it at the time. (350whp plus now)
Fuel does make a difference as I found out by mistake during a race weekend. I had dyno'd that car at 254whp consistently on 93 octane, but they ran out of 93 at the pumps so I had to dump 5 gals of 100 octane mixed in to make weight during qualifying. I ran 2 secs under the track record and was dyno'd. Car picked up 4 whp and I was 20 lbs under weight. I had to start at the back and run the extra weight (finished second in class and it was a bit of fun getting to the front). It was not worth 2 secs since my qual lap was pretty consistent with the 93octane times. (maybe a tenth better)
12-28-2012, 04:20 PM
#17
"I had dyno'd that car at 254whp consistently on 93 octane, but they ran out of 93 at the pumps so I had to dump 5 gals of 100 octane mixed in to make weight during qualifying. I ran 2 secs under the track record and was dyno'd. Car picked up 4 whp and I was 20 lbs under weight."
So the Bosch knock control system in the DME ECM works!
So the Bosch knock control system in the DME ECM works!
12-28-2012, 04:43 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Loren. I am not sure what your adding to this thread. My experience is from getting behind the wheel and racing the car. I go by results via data and time sheets. I will try tweeks offered by experienced racers. Bottom line is I remain a skeptic until I see a difference in the performance on my own.
12-29-2012, 03:00 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hi Bob, thanks for jumping in. The transplant is coming along pretty well, but I need to loose the immobilizer one way or another. I did not realize it would be this difficult (not possible?) Anyway, I will put your old 3.6 to good use.
Loren, I'm not looking for any magic snake oil 100 HP per liter, just a reliable map that is track orientated and maybe the Motronic box is not the way to go. I have seen the dyno charts from Bob's set up and he described it accurately. Unfortunately, I do not have the '97 ECU that he used at that time.
Loren, I'm not looking for any magic snake oil 100 HP per liter, just a reliable map that is track orientated and maybe the Motronic box is not the way to go. I have seen the dyno charts from Bob's set up and he described it accurately. Unfortunately, I do not have the '97 ECU that he used at that time.
12-29-2012, 05:15 PM
#20
Race Car
"I had dyno'd that car at 254whp consistently on 93 octane, but they ran out of 93 at the pumps so I had to dump 5 gals of 100 octane mixed in to make weight during qualifying. I ran 2 secs under the track record and was dyno'd. Car picked up 4 whp and I was 20 lbs under weight."
So the Bosch knock control system in the DME ECM works!
So the Bosch knock control system in the DME ECM works!
Irrelevant... trolling again Loren.
There is an interesting article in one of the racing magazines at the moment, Grassroots or something. It compares the different fuels on the dyno, interesting reading. (all done on a spec Miata)
12-29-2012, 08:11 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
The way I understand it, higher octane does not give you more horsepower, it prevents the timing being retarded (and resulting reduction in horsepower) due to knock under load when using a few counts less in octane.
12-29-2012, 10:21 PM
#23
Race Car
I cannot remember if they tuned each time or left the tune the same and just changes fuel. I will get the details and post, I don't think I will do it justice by guessing.
12-30-2012, 01:53 AM
#26
"What does this have to do with the knock control working or not? "
- Steven -
Try thinking as you read (Steven), it may help you understand better how
an engine management system functions when variables such as timing,
engine load, octane, detonation, and knock control inner act and how
the resulting performance may change because of one or all of these
variables.
Some may need hand-holding when statements aren't expressed
explicitly. Here's some help:
Once the race gas was introduced, the knock control system most likely
allowed less timing retard under heavier loads, e.g. hard acceleration
out of a turn, thus resulting in more torque as noted (HP - performance,
"Car picked up 4 whp").
Again:
"I had dyno'd that car at 254whp consistently on 93 octane, but they ran out of 93 at the pumps so I had to dump 5 gals of 100 octane mixed in to make weight during qualifying. I ran 2 secs under the track record and was dyno'd. Car picked up 4 whp and I was 20 lbs under weight."
So the Bosch knock control system in the DME ECM works!
- Steven -
Try thinking as you read (Steven), it may help you understand better how
an engine management system functions when variables such as timing,
engine load, octane, detonation, and knock control inner act and how
the resulting performance may change because of one or all of these
variables.
Some may need hand-holding when statements aren't expressed
explicitly. Here's some help:
Once the race gas was introduced, the knock control system most likely
allowed less timing retard under heavier loads, e.g. hard acceleration
out of a turn, thus resulting in more torque as noted (HP - performance,
"Car picked up 4 whp").
Again:
"I had dyno'd that car at 254whp consistently on 93 octane, but they ran out of 93 at the pumps so I had to dump 5 gals of 100 octane mixed in to make weight during qualifying. I ran 2 secs under the track record and was dyno'd. Car picked up 4 whp and I was 20 lbs under weight."
So the Bosch knock control system in the DME ECM works!
Last edited by Lorenfb; 12-30-2012 at 02:38 AM.
12-30-2012, 02:17 AM
#27
RL Technical Advisor
Loren,...honestly sir,......
Can you offer anything constructive WITHOUT the nasty & personally insulting remarks????
Is that possible?
Some civility on your part would sure be welcome and certainly much more professional.
Can you offer anything constructive WITHOUT the nasty & personally insulting remarks????
Is that possible?
Some civility on your part would sure be welcome and certainly much more professional.
12-30-2012, 10:12 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
Proof from the chip manufacturers...yes, that would be constructive. Power and torque curves that consumers can then confirm with their own cars and their chip. So far I have not seen any nor received any from any of them when I asked. Maybe they have something to hide?
I've never seen a single dyno run on Rennlist where a stock 993 gained 40 HP and 48 lbf.ft of torque simply by inserting a chip.
I've never seen a single dyno run on Rennlist where a stock 993 gained 40 HP and 48 lbf.ft of torque simply by inserting a chip.
Last edited by IXLR8; 12-30-2012 at 10:43 AM.
12-30-2012, 12:18 PM
#29
Race Car
As smart as are, you have this one about face.
Our cars are tuned for a max octane, and yes if you in lower octane in and the ecu senses knock it will retard then ignition. In our cars cases in 3 degree increments up to 9 degrees retard. The reverse is not true just because you put higher octane fuel in doesn't mean the ecu will increase the timing till it senses knock and then retard again. It will allow the ecu to operate at its max per programmed ignition timing.
Newer ecu's have the ability to do this, but again up to a maximum timing advance parameter set in the initial programming in the ecu. This doesn't mean that the car is tuned perfectly for the enhanced octane, but is better than an ecu that doesn't adapt.
To get the most out of any increased octane fuel, you need to tune specifically for it, and octane is not the only factor, different fuels have different characteristics other than octane that can affect the resulting power output. It's one of the reasons companies like vp racing fuels produce so many different fuels even at the same octane.
I know the motronic knock works well, as I have replicated the parameters in the aftermarket ecu I put in my own car, which has working knock control.
Our cars are tuned for a max octane, and yes if you in lower octane in and the ecu senses knock it will retard then ignition. In our cars cases in 3 degree increments up to 9 degrees retard. The reverse is not true just because you put higher octane fuel in doesn't mean the ecu will increase the timing till it senses knock and then retard again. It will allow the ecu to operate at its max per programmed ignition timing.
Newer ecu's have the ability to do this, but again up to a maximum timing advance parameter set in the initial programming in the ecu. This doesn't mean that the car is tuned perfectly for the enhanced octane, but is better than an ecu that doesn't adapt.
To get the most out of any increased octane fuel, you need to tune specifically for it, and octane is not the only factor, different fuels have different characteristics other than octane that can affect the resulting power output. It's one of the reasons companies like vp racing fuels produce so many different fuels even at the same octane.
I know the motronic knock works well, as I have replicated the parameters in the aftermarket ecu I put in my own car, which has working knock control.
"What does this have to do with the knock control working or not? "
- Steven -
Try thinking as you read (Steven), it may help you understand better how
an engine management system functions when variables such as timing,
engine load, octane, detonation, and knock control inner act and how
the resulting performance may change because of one or all of these
variables.
Some may need hand-holding when statements aren't expressed
explicitly. Here's some help:
Once the race gas was introduced, the knock control system most likely
allowed less timing retard under heavier loads, e.g. hard acceleration
out of a turn, thus resulting in more torque as noted (HP - performance,
"Car picked up 4 whp").
Again:
"I had dyno'd that car at 254whp consistently on 93 octane, but they ran out of 93 at the pumps so I had to dump 5 gals of 100 octane mixed in to make weight during qualifying. I ran 2 secs under the track record and was dyno'd. Car picked up 4 whp and I was 20 lbs under weight."
So the Bosch knock control system in the DME ECM works!
- Steven -
Try thinking as you read (Steven), it may help you understand better how
an engine management system functions when variables such as timing,
engine load, octane, detonation, and knock control inner act and how
the resulting performance may change because of one or all of these
variables.
Some may need hand-holding when statements aren't expressed
explicitly. Here's some help:
Once the race gas was introduced, the knock control system most likely
allowed less timing retard under heavier loads, e.g. hard acceleration
out of a turn, thus resulting in more torque as noted (HP - performance,
"Car picked up 4 whp").
Again:
"I had dyno'd that car at 254whp consistently on 93 octane, but they ran out of 93 at the pumps so I had to dump 5 gals of 100 octane mixed in to make weight during qualifying. I ran 2 secs under the track record and was dyno'd. Car picked up 4 whp and I was 20 lbs under weight."
So the Bosch knock control system in the DME ECM works!
12-30-2012, 12:27 PM
#30
Race Car
Proof from the chip manufacturers...yes, that would be constructive. Power and torque curves that consumers can then confirm with their own cars and their chip. So far I have not seen any nor received any from any of them when I asked. Maybe they have something to hide?
I've never seen a single dyno run on Rennlist where a stock 993 gained 40 HP and 48 lbf.ft of torque simply by inserting a chip.
I've never seen a single dyno run on Rennlist where a stock 993 gained 40 HP and 48 lbf.ft of torque simply by inserting a chip.
For me dyno charts for dyno charts sake are not valuable, dyno comparisons are really only useful when used as a Base line for seeing if modifications work or not. Same car, same dyno, same atmospheric variables etc. even the tire condition needs to be the same, tire pressure can make a difference.