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Collapsed Lifter ?? Loud clicking sound

 
Old 12-04-2012, 06:54 PM
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benjr
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Default Collapsed Lifter ?? Loud clicking sound

I have a 97 993 targa. Just did 60 k service a few months ago. Lifters have been a little noisy when cold. Recently I was running the car hard. Very fast starts a little redline action.. I noticed a loud clicking which isnt exhaust leak. Robin Sun said I cant collapse a lifter by driving the car hard. Any other things I could check ? Rocker arms ? Is it possible to replace lifters with the engine in the car? I have seen posts on how to do it out of the car but just curious how long it would take inside the car? I have access to a lift at a DIY garage so that should make the task easier. If anyone has experience with this I could make an audio clip of the sound using my iPhone.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:10 PM
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kjr914
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Do some searching, as there are plenty of threads about the various sounds and symptoms. Not all ticking is lifters. (bent valve stems, exhaust leaks, blah blah...)

Get either a mechanic's stethoscope (<$10 at Harbor Freight, or I've heard of using a piece of old garden hose held against the engine and ear) and figure out where the noise is coming from.

Here's a DIY just as an FYI on where they are located and what is involved with repair for the lifters. You don't have to take the engine out to do this. Also you could reference "valve cover gasket replacement" DIYs for info.
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-1995...air-101-a.html
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:27 PM
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When it is dark out, look underneath the car on each side at the lower valve covers for arcing from the plug wires to the valve cover bolts. Did you replace the plug wires at the 60k service? Arcing wires make quite the racket, and if your plug wires were not replaced, that could be the culprit. Leaks from the lower valve covers deteriorate the insulation on the plug wires.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:55 PM
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Just got done replacing the lifters on one intake bank a few weeks ago. I also noticed the lifters were getting a bit more noisy, but when one finally went, it was very noticeable. I knew it was a lifter right away.

I isolated it to one side but could not tell if it was an intake or exhaust. I started by checking the exhaust side. I clicked the motor over a few times to make sure each rocker was not on a cam lobe, but didn't notice any difference in the rocker play. I then pulled the top side apart and quickly found the offending part. Before I put the new lifters in, I soaked them in oil. I buttoned everything back up and cranked the motor over a bit with the DME relay out to keep it from firing. When the car started, all was quite with no lifter noise.

If you do have a bad lifter, they are fairly easy to replace. The lower exhaust side is much easier to get to. - good luck

Last edited by swmic; 12-05-2012 at 12:45 AM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:32 PM
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I replaced all six lifters on the driver's side, with the engine in the car.
PITA, because everything is hard to get to. Finding the right combination of tools is key. I used 3 different allen wrenches and sockets. Make sure you replace the valve cover allen bolts. These things are easy to strip. A very good torque wrench is a must with this job.

I would describe the sound as being a loud clacking.

I had collapsed one lifter after running the car hard on a very hot day in the desert. My car had 100k miles. All the lifters' seals were all very brittle, so I decided to replace all the lifters on that side while I was at it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:01 AM
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Mike J
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Its possible to fail a new lifter - just happened on a car i worked on. Lifter failed, replaced all 12, quiet, then a clicking noise a month later, one of the new lifters failed, replaced and all is quiet again. Guess what i am saying is do not write off the lifters even if they are new.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:32 PM
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Lifter noise. Easy to diagnose. Just pull off the valve coves and look. I’ve seen crazy things like loose rockers falling off and out of position due to poorly trained hands doing work. My lifters became loud all at once when at 80K + miles I theorize that the thicker oil I had just filled with was enough to create the pressure in the lifters to pop off the lifter cartridge’s oil seals. I am not sure the lifters actually fail first or it is just the rubber oil seals slip off. Unfortunately I have never seen the seals for sale as a separate preventative service part, too much money to be made selling the complete part I guess.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:57 PM
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On most of the lifters I have replaced, the O rings were either in pieces or missing entirely. One car was bad enough that the lifters dropped out of the rockers as the rocker was removed from the car.

On the ones that were new that were noisy, the only thing we could see that felt wrong is the swivel foot did not rotate as smoothly as the brand new ones, and in fact had a catch point that was a bit rough. The O ring seal was fine on both of them.

Cheers,

Mike
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:04 PM
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T0M993
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Just wanted to confirm- is the clicking noise evident at idle or does it increase as you climb up the RPM band?
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:37 PM
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Mine was highly evident at idle and obviously got worse with RPM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:33 PM
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I recently replaced all 12 lifters and the ticking at idle has been virtually eliminated. Over the past 2 weeks however I can definitely hear a ticking that starts around 2000 rpm and gets stronger as I climb up the RPM band but I can only hear it when the top is town and I am driving beside a wall, barricade or something nearby that can reflect the noise. I am also burning a liter of LiquiMoli every 700 miles or so which many claim is normal but I fear valve guides every time I hear the clicking or notice that my oil had dropped a bit.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:39 PM
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Its hard to tell what is normal while driving along a well - the sound reflections make it seem worse that it actually is. If your consumption is that high, I agree, you likely have valve guide wear. However, I know of cars that have been driven for years with that consumption with no issues. I think it becomes more important if you track or push the car where the valves are trying to sink a lot of heat to the heads - the gap in the guide heat isolates the valve.

How loud is the noise? It is a difference from previous "drive-bys" :-)

cheers,

Mike
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:07 PM
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Thanks for the insight, Mike. I feel like the sound quiets slightly (still very apparent at high RPMs) after I refill my oil but at this point I am fairly certain that I have driven my self crazy and don't know what I'm really hearing any more. I know there is a top end rebuild in my future, I'm just hoping its 25k away.

Cheers.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:33 PM
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If would be interesting if the tone actually changed because of a lower oil level - the implies that some sort of oil starvation or something is happening, which should not given the size of the oil reserve on these cars - and I find myself second guessing as well on a noise change because I start to forget what the previous noise really sounded like ....
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:53 AM
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benjr
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Default Lifter noise?

Originally Posted by T0M993 View Post
Just wanted to confirm- is the clicking noise evident at idle or does it increase as you climb up the RPM band?
It gets louder with increased rpm. Just to clarify its not just ticking, the lifters ticked when cold before. It is a loud clacking
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