SOS

Nope that's not what I said at all! Basically I was trying to say that it is FINE to have a nice 993 just for the street, just as it is FINE for you to mod it as you please.

SOS

I agree, and that's why my current car is mostly stock as well! My point stands though. To the OP I vote that it does make sense to do major mods to your car. Just do it right, don't cheap out, but stop before you fall off that cliff when it officially becomes less than the sum of its parts. But hey the chassis has to be good for at least 400hp or we wouldn't have the Turbo right? So I bet you could go SC and good suspension mods and still be ok. It may just end up feeling like a Turbo with good suspension mods minus turbo lag if you're awd, but if you're 2wd, well then i hope you're ready to have that much fun.

Petevb

My perspective is that performance-wise nearly anything is possible. Whether it's wise is another matter. The question, I think, is what don't you like about a newer cars, for example the GT3? If the answer is nothing then your answer is simple- go buy one. They are great performers, well rounded, and critically they are a complete package designed to work in harmony. It's very, very difficult to duplicate that level of all around competence regardless of budget.

If, on the other hand, there is something in particular you don't believe you can get from those newer cars (driving experience, feel, nostalgia, etc) then creating the "best of both worlds" may be a logical choice. Don't expect it to be cheap, however, as the package is already so good to begin with...

It think you're making certain assumptions about what you're changing on the 993. If you're willing and able to make extensive changes then why not?

Realize here that I'm coming from the relatively extreme perspective of my own car:

69 GT3 Cup

I think you're underestimating the differences in the suspension, chassis rigidity, track width, wheelbase, etc. The 997/ GT3 has 50% more camber gain in the rear suspension but 1/2 the camber gain in the front. Rear kinematic toe change is significantly less, and I'm sure the compliance steer is significantly different. Though I don't know the 993's numbers, the steering rack changed from front to rear mount, so the direction of that compliance steer likely changed. Torsional chassis rigidity is probably in the range of double the 993, etc. Changes in this scale will make for big differences in the way the car manages its tire contact patch and hence how it performs. Of course you can address nearly all of this if you're willing to get your hands dirty...

Lorenfb

"My perspective is that performance-wise nearly anything is possible. Whether it's wise is another matter. The question, I think, is what don't you like about a newer cars, for example the GT3? If the answer is nothing then your answer is simple- go buy one. They are great performers, well rounded, and critically they are a complete package designed to work in harmony. It's very, very difficult to duplicate that level of all around competence regardless of budget.

If, on the other hand, there is something in particular you don't believe you can get from those newer cars (driving experience, feel, nostalgia, etc) then creating the "best of both worlds" may be a logical choice. Don't expect it to be cheap, however, as the package is already so good to begin with..."

As always, profound! (but little/no substance)

"I think that anything beyond the mods you've done will impact the value of the car. If that is important, then stop."

Well said!

trophy

As always, trolling and wasting band with. If you haven't got anything useful to add, don't bother typing.

Lorenfb

"I am doing a bunch of other mods at the moment (including an engine rebuild) that should see the car on par with or exceeding the performance of most of the new cars including GT3's..."

Really? We're all waiting and I'm sure Porsche will be seeking your inputs when they realize
that they need to halt production of the 991 GT3 awaiting your advice, right?

Petevb

Very constructive as usual Loren. It's obviously impossible to improve upon the factory, right?

I wouldn't worry about it trophy. I'm beginning to think that being personally insulted by Loren is a sign that you're doing something right.

DALLWA

I bought a 993 C2, first drive I said "no way, too slow"

Bought 993TT, loved it, it's the original expectation I had for my C2. Never test drove one before buying either.

I was a passenger in boulderbobo's C2 with some performance improvements. I was floored by the torque and handling. I still consider it one of the best rides I've experienced.

It can be done without Superchargers and Turbos.

trophy

I think you are right.....

Bill Verburg

This may show why you like the 964 gearing, the wider spread means that each gear can be used more and/or the likely-hood of having to shift at an awkward place is reduced

race911

I'll take a box that works at all three of our tracks any day.

Nader Fotouhi

The only assumption I made was answering the OP about modifying a 993 to keep up with newer cars based on my experience, not building a car from ground up. If I wanted to build a fast NA 993, I'll go for copying a 993 Cup drive train, lightness, race suspension with double/triple adjustable coilovers, and aero. I am not a purist and have no problem with a 69 GT3 or 944 LS, if someone wants to do it, but if the goal is a non-custom street and fast DE car, I'll recommend a GT3 everytime.

I race in PCA stock class which does not allow any substantial changes to the drive train. If the goal is to run up front in G class (assuming equal driving ability), 993 is not the likely car you'll start with. It is what we bought and enjoy driving, but I do not expect to out run modern Porsches at DEs. However, I notice that a 993 with race suspension is quicker (again similar driver ability) than a 3.6 drive train in a pre-964 chasis, eventhough it is heavier. I assume that is based on better suspension geometry and aero, but have no scientific basis.

Martin S.

some posts above....especially Ken's comment about going slower at Laguna Seca with a re-geared box (Ouch!), and the shift point graphic above from Bill Verburg. Both Ken and Bill always seem to know their business...so I am really puzzled now as I am getting ready re-gear my 993 stock G50 box. Against any and all evidence, I am going to do it regardless. I have driven a re-geared 993, man does that car seem to come alive across all gears, seemed to me that the sweet spot when the torque kicks in is always just nearby and accessible. I hear there is a huge penalty if you run PCA Stock, move up a class....G stock is tough enough now running against RS America cars, 150 Lbs lighter I believe and about the same HP as a 993 as headers are legal in PCA Stock.


The "Yellow Car" referred to below is Ken Shahoian's "Yellow Zonker", an extremely well built 993 C2 with a re-geared close ratio tranny, built by Jeff Gamroth and Steve Weiner, I believe, about 8 years ago. No expense soared by Kim, the original builder of this car.

I don't know anything about the 964 car referred to below in the graphic above..what I am reading is that a 964 5 speed may well be a pretty good track box, maybe not needing re-gearing. Somehow, I find this difficult to fathom, how about you?

Being very close to laying out the cash for a 993 re-gear, I will be really pissed if I put $10,000 into a close ratio 993 box and lose 1 to 1.5 seconds a lap at Laguna Seca. In my 3200 Lb (wet) 993 (Class minimum weight), I feel that the stock 993 gears are just not right in about 50% of the turns at Laguna Seca:
Basically Turns 2 through 6... in turn 5 that I gear down to, from 4th to 3rd, having a lower gear and maybe getting up that hill quicker would be great, and car more speed through 6, up the hill.

A shorter 3rd gear would give the car more grunt from Turn 11 on to the front straight. This is assuming I stay with stock 1st and 2nd, replacing 3rd through 5th, with my stock 5th becoming my new 6th. I have include a Laguna Seca track map.

Ironically, I find my stock geared 993 to be just fine at Sears and Thunderhill....I copied Ken on this.....maybe I am just a crappy driver, although strangely enough I seem to get decent times at Laguna Seca...I better go to My Laps and see what I do there in case I get called out on this.

It seems to be sad but true, the 993 car, has a few things that need addressing if you want to race it. For DE or Time Trials, the car is good to go...just add some DOT "R" tires.

It needs to lose some weight, and getting it to PCA G Stock weight will all but make the car un-streetable. In PCA Stock, springs are "free", so if you want to run with your "bros" on the track, you'll have to re-spring her and re-valve the shocks. Be prepared to tear up the interior when you install the full cage

I would think, that the factory got it right when they designed the gear chart for the 993 RS and 993 RS Club Sport. Both technically street cars, legal in many countries around the world, but of course not in the US.

Where am I going with this??? If you want a race car, research what will be the best race car in the class you want to run in. In Porsche Owners Club (A SoCal Racing Club), one of the best cars to run is a 964 car, run it in their "J" Prepared where you compete against 84 89 Prepared Carrera cars, them with 220 HP to the rear wheels (These cars are tweaked), the 964 with close to 250 or more to the rear wheels using headers and a chip. In Prepared you get gears too, and you can take additional weight out of the car...but for some reason, few show up with a 964 Prepared car. I have a pal who built one as described above, it ran very well, setting track records, but the guy got the hots for a RS America and sold the car. Now he is hesitant to run the RS America, they are getting too valuable.

When you show up at the track to race a street car that morphed into a race car, you may be at a disadvantage...the clean sheet of paper approach is best. I know this from personal experience, too personal at that.

autosea

I thought that when I said my G50 Carrera has an active 5 speed gear box that would identify it has been regeared which it has without having to buy new shafts and all the other parts that make a stock 993 gearbox so expensive to upgrade.

Norske

All I know is I have major mods. Protomotive Stage II twin turbo. Over 500 crank HP.
PSS9's, Cargraphic extra oil cooler. ALWAYS runs cool. My car is VERY quick, blows ice cold air, sounds incredible, and handles very well. Not GT3, but very well. Sound sytem is not important to me. It is worth more to me this way. Some may not like the mods, but I do. That's all that matters. I wouldn't trade it for a factory twin turbo.