race911

Wait, wasn't that a 911 circa 1965? Or a 911S circa 1967-8-9-70-1-2-3? Then, of course you had the Carreras of the 2.7L era. And who, in 1978, ever thought an SC could be topped? Well, what happened for MY 84? Then that transmission upgrade came in '87. We'd all died and gone to heaven with fast + comfort with the 964. And here we are now, looking 18 years backward with a 993 that can't possibly do both.

All depends on your expectations, in light of where customer demand and technology have taken us. Someday a 991 will be thought of as slow and crude.

Cupcar

I see your point and you missed that I italicized the word "really" before "good at the track" in my post.

As I am sure you know, all things being equal in power train, aero and chassis, the car with the lower mass will be faster every time given equal talent in the seat.

Martin S.

Nobody I know has more fun building a car from scratch as does Cupcar. He is quite the writer so I am hoping his current 993RS clone project will be in an article sometime soon. I am not proud, I "borrow" ideas from Cup Car all the time.

Bill Verburg

The question is pretty vague, what's the def. of 'major' I probably have one of the more modified cars here and yet I still consider it streetable.

Yes, you can drop a ton of coin making changes but depending on what you want from the car they can transform it into something that is truly satisfying to drive, will it be as fast as a GT3? no! at least not w/o spending at least the price of a GT3. Will it be more satisfying than stock He** yes!! Will changes that make it a better track car turn off some drivers, again He** yes! but so what.

I've had my '76 C3 for 35 yrs now, it only bears superficial resemblance to what it was oe, it's worth way less than an unmolested version but I still get a big grin when i fire it up, the 993 has been in the garage for fewer years but it's the same feeling, when they were unmodified they were both nice but now they are my idea of nice not some marketing committee's

You have barely scratched the surface of the cars potential, I say mod on

carjmark

Everybody's different. I've owned many Porsches since the early 1970's and last year sold my 996 Turbo and bought a 993. For me the 993 is my favorite all around car. My suggestion is to go drive some other faster cars (993's and other) and see what you you like since there's no right answer. It's hard to pick one (or 2, or 3...) cars since there are are so many great car combinations out there. Mark

Nader Fotouhi

Compare to Bill V, I am a newbie, but my wife and I bought a 993 race car (impulse buy) to share on the track. There is no way to make a 993 be a GT3 or for that matter, a 996 or 997 on the track. Even in PCA G class, it is hard to compete with RSA (based on weight) or Boxter S (aero/brakes/etc). The newer cars do everything better.

If your intention is to keep up with other friends at DE, then buy what they have (assuming same skill level). I think that the biggest issue with the 993 is the weight. If you are willing to spend money to seriously lighten the car (mostly fiberglass) and change to 3.8, you will have a fast car that is very satisfying, but it will not be faster than newer cars.

Martin S.

Nader writes, "There is no way to make a 993 be a GT3 or for that matter, a 996 or 997 on the track. Even in PCA G class, it is hard to compete with RSA (based on weight) or Boxter S (aero/brakes/etc). The newer cars do everything better."

Indeed the RSA has a weight advantage, and with headers being allowed without penalty in PCA G Stock, the 964 RSA car is going to be putting 250+ HP to the rear wheels, and be 100 Lbs + lighter than a 993...tough to beat...but the 993 can have wider wheels, has a better ABS, and a more modern rear suspension. I am sure there are other 993 advantages...but the 3220 Lbs of 993 weight, or thereabouts, is just a bloody bunch.

The Boxster S in addition to above mentioned advantages listed by Nader has:
VarioCam, + VarioRam (I believe)
More modern ABS
Water cooled
4 valves per cylinder
Lighter?
PASM?
Chrono package?

If you really have to win a class championship, you can't back into it. One needs to find the car in that particular class with the most advantages. In G Stock its the 964 RS America I would think.

Be that as it may, I'll take my G Stock 993 and few others will be having more fun than me, I assure you.

Cupcar

I think the upshot of this is the rules you are playing against vis a vis defining individual competitiveness of the different genre 911.

I think it is a bit unfair to compare a new car to a car that is going on 20 years old and say the design is totally the difference.

They are basically the same MacPherson strut front and multilink rear suspension chassis with about the same polar moment and CG (ignoring wheelbase differences). Sure there are detail improvements in suspension and ABS but they don't make for huge changes I would think.

I feel the disadvantage of the 993 today against a new car rests in a worn suspension. The bushings and sub frame mounts have too much rubber to wear out and allow the car to drive itself in ways the driver didn't wish for. I was amazed at the cracking and the wear I noted in my own car. Unless there is better quality elastomer in the newer cars they will go the same road as far as wear.

I think with a stock suspension for their year and fresh suspension rubber, shocks and springs in the 993 that given equal power and weigh ratiost a 993 would be almost the equal of the new cars on the track or not far behind even given the new cars have a more user friendly torque curve.

Nader Fotouhi

I bet my wife gives you a good run for your money on the fun factor. She loves driving the thing and as an intermediate driver, is doing great job of driving the car. I dare say, it is great fun for me to watch her Of course, I too an am having fun driving.

trophy

I am in the same boat as Bill, a highly modified 993 (See signature) and is still streetable. The only place I have any issues with the new iron tends to be in a straight line. Of course this depends on the track and I know tracks like miller with long acceleration runs I have more trouble. But in the twisties, I can keep up with GT3's all day long.

These cars can be even more exciting and deliver massive fun factor with some well placed mods, all without breaking into the kids college fund. Of course if you want to be side by side with gt3's you will need to address HP, Gearing and Aero.....

I am doing a bunch of other mods at the moment (including an engine rebuild) that should see the car on par with or exceeding the performance of most of the new cars including GT3's.... The price, well i'd rather not say because my wife may be looking.

Cupcar

Nice wife, a keeper.

Martin S.

Steve writes, "I am doing a bunch of other mods at the moment (including an engine rebuild) that should see the car on par with or exceeding the performance of most of the new cars including GT3's.... The price, well i'd rather not say because my wife may be looking."

If you just want kick *** raw HP in a 911, find a "salvage" or theft recovery 996 and install a Renegade Hybrid Corvette LS-1 crate motor mated to the 996 tranny. Believe it or not the weigh differential between the two motors is minimal, and supposedly the 996 tranny will take the added HP. The Corvette motor is aluminum...the plumbing for the water cooled is all there. Also if you buy a 99 to 01 996 with the 3.4 motor, these are getting somewhat rare. You could sell the motor to pay for a part of the project.

I read a recent article where this package was installed in a 996 Carrera 4...awesome performance, with aero and proper lowering, could be a 200 mph car at Bonneville. And a Carrera 4? What a sleeper....

More info at: http://www.renegadehybrids.com/911/LS-1.html

Bill Verburg

I don't think so, my heavily modified car is no match for a late 997S PDK on the same tires, and late Cayman/Boxster S/R are mostly not as catchable as the 997S

It's interesting that a guy I run w/ went from a '10GT3RS which was heavily modified for track use to a 964 PCA G race car and loves it far more than the GT3

The most bang for the buck is the guy w/ the almost stock '73T CIS everyone passes him but he's having just as much fun for 10% of the cost

The thing that is the most troublesome on the later cars is the electronics which more and more control every aspect of the cars performance

pp000830

I like items that improve performance or comfort and do not shorten service life. Things such as
Non-racing aftermarket struts & springs;
Replacing cassette holder with cup holder;
Adding auto door lock when car is moving;
Adding buzzer when lights are left on when parked;
Key hole illumination;
Adding inside trunk lid protector;
Add rear center section running stop lights;
Aftermarket exhaust if you like the sound.

Things I would not do:
Chip the ECU;
Replace any of the engines internal components with other than stock;
Alter the stock air intake in any way;
Replace any of the stock transmission components with race related parts;
Upgrade to rigid inner tie rod ends - increases impact shock to the rack.

Nautilus

Great thread and great posts from a lot of knowledgeable guys.

Like you, I love my 993 and would not trade its looks and feel for modern 911s but would like to have their power and handling, even if I don’t usually track the car and mine is completely stock apart from the KW V3 suspension.

I guess the main problem with older cars is always down to weight (modern 911s weight as much or even less than the 993 being much larger), chassis stiffness and aerodynamics.

Given the small size of the 993 the overall weight is very similar to modern 911s so that is not too bad (but would obviously be great to be lighter); regarding stiffness you could fit a welded roll cage which (I am guessing since I have not seen any calculation on that) would give you the same if not more stiffness of modern cars at the expense of being an intrusive element (and ugly in my view) for a street car; in this subject I really love the RUF IRC which would never give you the same stiffness as a full cage but is completely hidden. Aerodynamics is another difficult problem to solve (it is just not possible to overcome years and money spent by Porsche in a windtunnel); you will never be able to catch new metal on long straights.

In summary, if I was to modify my 993 (which I mainly use on the road) I would go down the usual weight saving route (without compromising the streatability of the car) and would definitely try to have something similar to the RUF IRC (have to say I hate hearing my chassis creaking when I approach the slope before my garage).

Is it worth it? I guess all of us dream of having our perfect car (kind of in a Singer kind of way) and if any modification brings your car closer to that idea then do it;having said that it is of course possible to enjoy your car as it is (and we all do).