Ferrari 360 vs Audi R8
08-27-2012, 11:27 AM
#16
Race Director
The 360 still has its issues.
1. Cam Variators...could cause an engine failure, although I believe these parts were updated after 2001 or 2002.
2. Exhaust header failure...this started on the 355, and has continued into the 360 and even 430. Can cause engine damage if not discovered and corrected.
3. Belts on the 360 are done through an access panel behind the seats. Tensioner bearings are crappy and should be replaced by hill products.
4. clutch wear with F1 can be significant if backing up a slight incline.
5. Interior plastics get sticky...not a huge deal, but another 355 issue that was passed on.
thats pretty much it. A 360 or 430 with a manual trans, up to date maintenance, and a solid repair history should be a reliable and enjoyable car. While parts prices are still outrageous (and thats by porsche standards), the paint is dog**** from the factory, and some niggly stuff breaks when it shouldn't, the cars are far more useable and reliable than their predecessors.
1. Cam Variators...could cause an engine failure, although I believe these parts were updated after 2001 or 2002.
2. Exhaust header failure...this started on the 355, and has continued into the 360 and even 430. Can cause engine damage if not discovered and corrected.
3. Belts on the 360 are done through an access panel behind the seats. Tensioner bearings are crappy and should be replaced by hill products.
4. clutch wear with F1 can be significant if backing up a slight incline.
5. Interior plastics get sticky...not a huge deal, but another 355 issue that was passed on.
thats pretty much it. A 360 or 430 with a manual trans, up to date maintenance, and a solid repair history should be a reliable and enjoyable car. While parts prices are still outrageous (and thats by porsche standards), the paint is dog**** from the factory, and some niggly stuff breaks when it shouldn't, the cars are far more useable and reliable than their predecessors.
08-27-2012, 03:10 PM
#17
Drifting
I currentlhy own a 360 but am not that familar with the R8. I suspect it would be hard to go wrong with an R8.
I can tell you my '99 360 F1 has been quite trouble-free and reliable for nearly 50,000 miles. They are more expensive to maintain than a 993 and probably more expensive to maintain than the R8, but don't believe most of the exagerated nonsense stories on the internet from people that have probably never even been in one much less owned one. Yes, there are always exceptions (including expensive problems with 993's) but overall they are reliable, fun cars. A 430 is also a great car, is very reliable, and doesn't require a timing belt replacement. However they are more expensive to buy than a 360. BYW - I replace the timing belts in my 360 on a five year schedule at a cost of about $1800.....not much when annualized.
The key with buying a used (and now getting older) 360 is to make sure service and maintenance is up-to-date or recent, that cam variators were replaced under warranty (I doubt you could find a 360 that hasn't had that done), and if there have been any service history with headers (on 2000 and later the pre-cats in the headers can be an issue). Don't be afraid of mileage if they've been properly maintained. And if anyone would like to come and compare the fit/finish of my 360 to my 993, you're welcome to stop by and compare....they sit right beside each other and I think you will be surprised. It has outstanding original paint and it's definitely not "dog sh*t".
With an R8 you probably don't have to be as concerned with history and service since they are much newer. They are certainly great looking cars.
Good luck with whatever you buy. You'll have a blast in either a 360 or an R8.
Cheers.
I can tell you my '99 360 F1 has been quite trouble-free and reliable for nearly 50,000 miles. They are more expensive to maintain than a 993 and probably more expensive to maintain than the R8, but don't believe most of the exagerated nonsense stories on the internet from people that have probably never even been in one much less owned one. Yes, there are always exceptions (including expensive problems with 993's) but overall they are reliable, fun cars. A 430 is also a great car, is very reliable, and doesn't require a timing belt replacement. However they are more expensive to buy than a 360. BYW - I replace the timing belts in my 360 on a five year schedule at a cost of about $1800.....not much when annualized.
The key with buying a used (and now getting older) 360 is to make sure service and maintenance is up-to-date or recent, that cam variators were replaced under warranty (I doubt you could find a 360 that hasn't had that done), and if there have been any service history with headers (on 2000 and later the pre-cats in the headers can be an issue). Don't be afraid of mileage if they've been properly maintained. And if anyone would like to come and compare the fit/finish of my 360 to my 993, you're welcome to stop by and compare....they sit right beside each other and I think you will be surprised. It has outstanding original paint and it's definitely not "dog sh*t".
With an R8 you probably don't have to be as concerned with history and service since they are much newer. They are certainly great looking cars.
Good luck with whatever you buy. You'll have a blast in either a 360 or an R8.
Cheers.
08-27-2012, 03:38 PM
#19
Race Director
I currentlhy own a 360 but am not that familar with the R8. I suspect it would be hard to go wrong with an R8.
I can tell you my '99 360 F1 has been quite trouble-free and reliable for nearly 50,000 miles. They are more expensive to maintain than a 993 and probably more expensive to maintain than the R8, but don't believe most of the exagerated nonsense stories on the internet from people that have probably never even been in one much less owned one. Yes, there are always exceptions (including expensive problems with 993's) but overall they are reliable, fun cars. A 430 is also a great car, is very reliable, and doesn't require a timing belt replacement. However they are more expensive to buy than a 360. BYW - I replace the timing belts in my 360 on a five year schedule at a cost of about $1800.....not much when annualized.
The key with buying a used (and now getting older) 360 is to make sure service and maintenance is up-to-date or recent, that cam variators were replaced under warranty (I doubt you could find a 360 that hasn't had that done), and if there have been any service history with headers (on 2000 and later the pre-cats in the headers can be an issue). Don't be afraid of mileage if they've been properly maintained. And if anyone would like to come and compare the fit/finish of my 360 to my 993, you're welcome to stop by and compare....they sit right beside each other and I think you will be surprised. It has outstanding original paint and it's definitely not "dog sh*t".
With an R8 you probably don't have to be as concerned with history and service since they are much newer. They are certainly great looking cars.
Good luck with whatever you buy. You'll have a blast in either a 360 or an R8.
Cheers.
I can tell you my '99 360 F1 has been quite trouble-free and reliable for nearly 50,000 miles. They are more expensive to maintain than a 993 and probably more expensive to maintain than the R8, but don't believe most of the exagerated nonsense stories on the internet from people that have probably never even been in one much less owned one. Yes, there are always exceptions (including expensive problems with 993's) but overall they are reliable, fun cars. A 430 is also a great car, is very reliable, and doesn't require a timing belt replacement. However they are more expensive to buy than a 360. BYW - I replace the timing belts in my 360 on a five year schedule at a cost of about $1800.....not much when annualized.
The key with buying a used (and now getting older) 360 is to make sure service and maintenance is up-to-date or recent, that cam variators were replaced under warranty (I doubt you could find a 360 that hasn't had that done), and if there have been any service history with headers (on 2000 and later the pre-cats in the headers can be an issue). Don't be afraid of mileage if they've been properly maintained. And if anyone would like to come and compare the fit/finish of my 360 to my 993, you're welcome to stop by and compare....they sit right beside each other and I think you will be surprised. It has outstanding original paint and it's definitely not "dog sh*t".
With an R8 you probably don't have to be as concerned with history and service since they are much newer. They are certainly great looking cars.
Good luck with whatever you buy. You'll have a blast in either a 360 or an R8.
Cheers.
Maybe you got a good one
08-27-2012, 03:54 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
You may have read my comments somewhere on RL before.
This coming from an Italian (my girlfriend's brother), who lives in Italy and who has owned a car parts business for over 25 years (recently retired)... "A Ferrari is beautiful to look at, but if you want a sports car that actually works, buy a Porsche". Nearly the whole family there drives VW or Audi.
That said, I'd love to park a Ferrari in my living room as 3-dimensioal art. Its Italian...enough said!
This coming from an Italian (my girlfriend's brother), who lives in Italy and who has owned a car parts business for over 25 years (recently retired)... "A Ferrari is beautiful to look at, but if you want a sports car that actually works, buy a Porsche". Nearly the whole family there drives VW or Audi.
That said, I'd love to park a Ferrari in my living room as 3-dimensioal art. Its Italian...enough said!
08-27-2012, 05:25 PM
#21
Drifting
I agree with the rest of your post, but ferrari paint sucks. Runs, fish eyes, horrible orange peel, bad swirling even when new (may be a bad pdi) etc. Just one example of many, but I saw a brand new california with 2 very noticeable runs on the edge of a door.
Maybe you got a good one
Maybe you got a good one
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Quad.
I have seen very few modern Ferraris (after '86 or so) with bad paint. However to your point, there are indeed some examples of recent models such as a Cali or 458 with some paint issues that need correction. However I rarely see late models with poor paint. I have never seen poor original paint on a 360 or 430, and I've seen many up close. I say this based on being an active member of FCA and FOC and regularly attending events where there are always 30+ Ferraris. I think the paint flaws/issues on modern Ferraris are the exception, rather than the rule.
If one compares the paint on my 360 to the paint on my 993S, you can clearly see which one is better (......the 360), and they are both original, uncorrected paint. Now comparing them with the original paint on my Alfa.....that's a different strory
.Cheers.
08-27-2012, 05:36 PM
#22
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Look at this thread and start reading at post #41:
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...?highlight=360
Geoff
08-27-2012, 07:42 PM
#23
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360 6-speed is a decent car. Requires belt service and such but sounds great!
360CS is the better buy.
430 is better comparo to the R8 and is best in Scuderia form.
The Fiat over Auto Union any day for excitment.
360CS is the better buy.
430 is better comparo to the R8 and is best in Scuderia form.
The Fiat over Auto Union any day for excitment.
08-27-2012, 08:06 PM
#24
It doesn't.
I still think some Ferraris look great, but they tend to have quality issues coupled with outrageous pricing just for the sake of outrageous pricing. Nice to look at. No interest in owning.
I'd take an R8 over any Ferrari if I needed to maintain with my own time/money over a period of time.
08-27-2012, 08:26 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
We have more than a few of our fun run guys with 430's, an Enzo, a 360 or two, and I agree-their paint jobs have been great. I've not looked close enough at the last few years' offerings.
On the other hand, some of the newer ('08-12?)Porsches I've seen, I've not been too impressed with, in some of the darker colors
On the other hand, some of the newer ('08-12?)Porsches I've seen, I've not been too impressed with, in some of the darker colors
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Quad.
I have seen very few modern Ferraris (after '86 or so) with bad paint. However to your point, there are indeed some examples of recent models such as a Cali or 458 with some paint issues that need correction. However I rarely see late models with poor paint. I have never seen poor original paint on a 360 or 430, and I've seen many up close. I say this based on being an active member of FCA and FOC and regularly attending events where there are always 30+ Ferraris. I think the paint flaws/issues on modern Ferraris are the exception, rather than the rule.
If one compares the paint on my 360 to the paint on my 993S, you can clearly see which one is better (......the 360), and they are both original, uncorrected paint. Now comparing them with the original paint on my Alfa.....that's a different strory.
Cheers.
I have seen very few modern Ferraris (after '86 or so) with bad paint. However to your point, there are indeed some examples of recent models such as a Cali or 458 with some paint issues that need correction. However I rarely see late models with poor paint. I have never seen poor original paint on a 360 or 430, and I've seen many up close. I say this based on being an active member of FCA and FOC and regularly attending events where there are always 30+ Ferraris. I think the paint flaws/issues on modern Ferraris are the exception, rather than the rule.
If one compares the paint on my 360 to the paint on my 993S, you can clearly see which one is better (......the 360), and they are both original, uncorrected paint. Now comparing them with the original paint on my Alfa.....that's a different strory
.Cheers.
08-27-2012, 11:55 PM
#27
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I have been a Porsche club member since 1986. If you or anyone wants a Ferrari or any other car go get it and enjoy as life is short and you are not betraying Porsche fans.
Ferrari paintwork and leather interiors are the finest in the world! Flawless paint absolutely no orange peel. Same thing with Lamborghini except lots of crazy pearlescent paints that are incredible.
A Ferrari 360 is a very well built reliable super fast car. Horror stories are bogus for the most part. Rumors are rampant just like about any competing car brand. Lots of misinformed haters out there. I know American muscle cars guys that sincerely believe that my 930 turbo or 993 has a hidden water pump that costs 1500 and it's a bitch to replace so they rationalize only buy American!
A Ferrari 360 will run away from an Audi R8 in terms of acceleration and handling. The 2 wheel drive makes the car feel like an IMSA Camel light car versus numb all wheel drive. Don't hate I know I've driven them all.
If you can get a 360 that has been maintained well buy the best car and do a ppi just like you should normally do for any purchase .
The Ferrari with a few simple modifications will scream to redline closest thing to an F1 car we will ever have. Same deal with 430 and 458 cars.
The Audi R10 is a Lamborghini Gallardo with different more conservative sheet metal. The R8 is the same car with a smaller less powerful engine. Audi owns these 2 companies and all the parts are the same.
Trust me or if you want cruise to fabspeeds new headquarters and you can test drive a 2003 F 360 spider and a 2006 Gallardo with our simple modifications you will have a blast. Entirely different feel from the Porsche . All these cars give you good vibes so enjoy and try them out.
I would definitely get a 360 over any R8 and a 430 over any r10
What do you think would be faster in a straight line 360 or gallardo or R8?
Have a great week
Ferrari paintwork and leather interiors are the finest in the world! Flawless paint absolutely no orange peel. Same thing with Lamborghini except lots of crazy pearlescent paints that are incredible.
A Ferrari 360 is a very well built reliable super fast car. Horror stories are bogus for the most part. Rumors are rampant just like about any competing car brand. Lots of misinformed haters out there. I know American muscle cars guys that sincerely believe that my 930 turbo or 993 has a hidden water pump that costs 1500 and it's a bitch to replace so they rationalize only buy American!
A Ferrari 360 will run away from an Audi R8 in terms of acceleration and handling. The 2 wheel drive makes the car feel like an IMSA Camel light car versus numb all wheel drive. Don't hate I know I've driven them all.
If you can get a 360 that has been maintained well buy the best car and do a ppi just like you should normally do for any purchase .
The Ferrari with a few simple modifications will scream to redline closest thing to an F1 car we will ever have. Same deal with 430 and 458 cars.
The Audi R10 is a Lamborghini Gallardo with different more conservative sheet metal. The R8 is the same car with a smaller less powerful engine. Audi owns these 2 companies and all the parts are the same.
Trust me or if you want cruise to fabspeeds new headquarters and you can test drive a 2003 F 360 spider and a 2006 Gallardo with our simple modifications you will have a blast. Entirely different feel from the Porsche . All these cars give you good vibes so enjoy and try them out.
I would definitely get a 360 over any R8 and a 430 over any r10
What do you think would be faster in a straight line 360 or gallardo or R8?
Have a great week
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Fabspeed Motorsport USA
155 Commerce Drive
Fort Washington, PA. 19034
www.Fabspeed.com
P: 215-646-4945
F: 215-646-9828
Exotic Car Performance Experts
Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Maserati, Bentley, Aston Martin, BMW, Audi and Jaguar.
31 year PCA Club member supporter
14 year Ferrari Club member
1st ever financial supporter of Porsche Fans/ Rennlist
Last edited by Joe@Fabspeed; 08-28-2012 at 12:12 AM.
08-28-2012, 10:56 AM
#29
Race Director
08-28-2012, 08:17 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
As a long time P-car owner/fanatic but also a longtime F-car owner/fanatic I tried to resist chiming in here, but for what it is worth here is my experience:
Ferrari 360-
I have owned both F1 and 6-speed manual versions. The F1 is an impressive piece as long as a person understands they are buying a single-clutch automated MANUAL and the shift quality is akin to a manual... The speed at which it shifts is damn impressive. The 6-speed manual cars have fairly high shift effort and are very balky cold, they need to be driven with an assertive hand... Overall I find the 6-speed manual car to be more involving but definitely slower than the F1. As the cars age I would probably tend towards the manual as I perceive maintenance costs to be lower with old tech. I have personally never had an issue with the F1.
Maintenance Costs: Lately with increased competition I have seen major service costs drop dramatically. I just had the 360 serviced at my local Ferrari store (Ron Tonkin GT in Portland OR) and they did the 30k major including timing belts, all drive belts and all fluids (engine, trans, brake, coolant, etc.) and the total tab was $3200, which I thought was very reasonable. I am happy to send a copy of this invoice to anybody curious. This service is due every 5 years. In off years all that is required is an oil service and brake fluid flush. I do that myself but could have it done for ~$700 or so. So overall even if I use the dealer we are looking at $6,000 over 5 years or ~$100 month. Not to big of a deal and frankly not too different from my air-cooled Porsches...
Failures- There are several known failures on 360's just like there are on any series of Porsche. The key is to do your homework upfront and buy the best maintained example you can find. Ferrarichat is a great example to learn what they are. I personally have only experienced a few issues such as the alarm siren failure, sticky switches, etc. None were game changers for me or crazy expensive.
Paint Quality- In my experience the difference with Ferrari is that they are more inconsistent than Porsche. The cars that I have owned have all had exceptional paint quality with the exception of one car that had some dirt in the paint in one lower rocker. That should have been caught before it left the factory but it wasn't. I have personally seen a few F-cars with paint flaw, none major but have seen it. In my years with Porsche I have only seen one car (89 911) that had a run in it's original paint. I will also say my experience is that the "hardness" of the F-car paint seems lower as they are more susceptible to rock chips.
Interior Quality- I would tend to agree that Ferrari interiors while better than they used to be still don't wear well. Part of the problem is that they use quite a bit more leather than Porsche and frankly leather other than on seats is not the most durable material in a car. The leather dashes are susceptible to shrinking (always use a shade) although you do see this in full leather Porsche dashes as well. The seats also show quite a bit more bolster wear than Porsche seats at like mileage. I think overall the interior on the F-car looks richer than the P-car, but they don't hold up as well.
Driving- You really cant compare the two cars well. The amazing thing about a P-car is that is does everything well and makes few demands on the driver. They are just an easy car to drive fast, are easy to live with on a day to day basis and are overall just a magical combination. The Ferrari makes the most amazing noises, has almost electric throttle response (think early 2.0 MFI 911s...), has light but telepathic steering and generally makes more demands of the driver. If you haven't driven one, put it on the list.
Looks- Clearly this is subjective, I think they are both gorgeous cars but in different ways. The 911 is art to me because it defines the brand and a culture and was just a car that was perfect out of the box. The 360 is a sexy, lithe italian goddess. Which one do you want to take home? You cant go wrong with either. I will tell you that if your shy the F-car is not for you, you do not blend in anywhere you go!
We are all car guys here so my basic summary is that if I could only have one I would have a P-car because it is a car I can live with and use in any situation. The Ferrari is an amazing car but inherently makes more compromises. If you can afford both, do it!
Ferrari 360-
I have owned both F1 and 6-speed manual versions. The F1 is an impressive piece as long as a person understands they are buying a single-clutch automated MANUAL and the shift quality is akin to a manual... The speed at which it shifts is damn impressive. The 6-speed manual cars have fairly high shift effort and are very balky cold, they need to be driven with an assertive hand... Overall I find the 6-speed manual car to be more involving but definitely slower than the F1. As the cars age I would probably tend towards the manual as I perceive maintenance costs to be lower with old tech. I have personally never had an issue with the F1.
Maintenance Costs: Lately with increased competition I have seen major service costs drop dramatically. I just had the 360 serviced at my local Ferrari store (Ron Tonkin GT in Portland OR) and they did the 30k major including timing belts, all drive belts and all fluids (engine, trans, brake, coolant, etc.) and the total tab was $3200, which I thought was very reasonable. I am happy to send a copy of this invoice to anybody curious. This service is due every 5 years. In off years all that is required is an oil service and brake fluid flush. I do that myself but could have it done for ~$700 or so. So overall even if I use the dealer we are looking at $6,000 over 5 years or ~$100 month. Not to big of a deal and frankly not too different from my air-cooled Porsches...
Failures- There are several known failures on 360's just like there are on any series of Porsche. The key is to do your homework upfront and buy the best maintained example you can find. Ferrarichat is a great example to learn what they are. I personally have only experienced a few issues such as the alarm siren failure, sticky switches, etc. None were game changers for me or crazy expensive.
Paint Quality- In my experience the difference with Ferrari is that they are more inconsistent than Porsche. The cars that I have owned have all had exceptional paint quality with the exception of one car that had some dirt in the paint in one lower rocker. That should have been caught before it left the factory but it wasn't. I have personally seen a few F-cars with paint flaw, none major but have seen it. In my years with Porsche I have only seen one car (89 911) that had a run in it's original paint. I will also say my experience is that the "hardness" of the F-car paint seems lower as they are more susceptible to rock chips.
Interior Quality- I would tend to agree that Ferrari interiors while better than they used to be still don't wear well. Part of the problem is that they use quite a bit more leather than Porsche and frankly leather other than on seats is not the most durable material in a car. The leather dashes are susceptible to shrinking (always use a shade) although you do see this in full leather Porsche dashes as well. The seats also show quite a bit more bolster wear than Porsche seats at like mileage. I think overall the interior on the F-car looks richer than the P-car, but they don't hold up as well.
Driving- You really cant compare the two cars well. The amazing thing about a P-car is that is does everything well and makes few demands on the driver. They are just an easy car to drive fast, are easy to live with on a day to day basis and are overall just a magical combination. The Ferrari makes the most amazing noises, has almost electric throttle response (think early 2.0 MFI 911s...), has light but telepathic steering and generally makes more demands of the driver. If you haven't driven one, put it on the list.
Looks- Clearly this is subjective, I think they are both gorgeous cars but in different ways. The 911 is art to me because it defines the brand and a culture and was just a car that was perfect out of the box. The 360 is a sexy, lithe italian goddess. Which one do you want to take home? You cant go wrong with either. I will tell you that if your shy the F-car is not for you, you do not blend in anywhere you go!
We are all car guys here so my basic summary is that if I could only have one I would have a P-car because it is a car I can live with and use in any situation. The Ferrari is an amazing car but inherently makes more compromises. If you can afford both, do it!