Need some paint advice!
05-02-2012, 12:01 PM
#31
What appears problematic to me is that you have a serious rust problem in the rear window frame, and the body guy did not remove the window so as to be able to completely address the problem. The bubbling you see on the outside is usually the tip of the proverbial iceberg that can only be seen when the glass is removed.
05-02-2012, 12:23 PM
#32
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interesting, Keep the updates coming. I enjoy watching this kinda refresh work/thread/info
Id think removing the windows is the correct way to do it. Good luck with the makeover
Id think removing the windows is the correct way to do it. Good luck with the makeover
05-02-2012, 12:48 PM
#33
Drifting
What appears problematic to me is that you have a serious rust problem in the rear window frame, and the body guy did not remove the window so as to be able to completely address the problem. The bubbling you see on the outside is usually the tip of the proverbial iceberg that can only be seen when the glass is removed.
Now granted, welds can rust but done right I'm not convinced that a glue is the best way to go. Also, how did he glue in the replacement piece? Did he do a lap bond, i.e. overlap to two pieces or butt them together or ? When welding in a piece the accepted norm is to butt weld (end to end) the two pieces) not overlap since this will cause a differential in expansion of the panel (thicker seam) and stresses the joint. When the metal goes through many heat/cool cycles on a daily basis, each time it will be expanding and contracting at a different rate than the glue hence the greater likelihood of separation down the road.
We are not trying to rain on your parade. Perhaps you could find another well respected body guy in your area, maybe your alternate choice and run this by him also?
05-02-2012, 06:40 PM
#35
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Interesting thread. A point of reference not mentioned is how much the job is costing (I am not asking the OP to post) and what is the OPs objective? If the goal is to keep the car a long time and have a very high quality job it does not seem that the shop being used is going to cut it.
I have not seen any high end quality shop not use metal to repair rust damage etc on the body. Same goes for not taking out all windows, otherwise you will have noticeable paint lines. Usual process is to leave doors on while blocking and remove to paint. No mention of type of paint being used.
High quality paint jobs are stupid expensive these days. Hopefully the OP is getting a "fair" deal for his objectives.
I have not seen any high end quality shop not use metal to repair rust damage etc on the body. Same goes for not taking out all windows, otherwise you will have noticeable paint lines. Usual process is to leave doors on while blocking and remove to paint. No mention of type of paint being used.
High quality paint jobs are stupid expensive these days. Hopefully the OP is getting a "fair" deal for his objectives.
05-03-2012, 03:43 PM
#36
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I've got to agree with the concerns raised here. Used to do quite a bit of body work but it has been a few years so I'm sure there are new techniques for repairs. I also hang around some guys who restore 356s right down to the frame. It was and still is, to my knowledge always best to have a metal to metal bond, i.e. welding in of the replacement part. The problem I see with any glue is that while perhaps it is stronger when new than a weld, glues are made of polymers and resins and eventually they break down and become brittle.
Now granted, welds can rust but done right I'm not convinced that a glue is the best way to go. Also, how did he glue in the replacement piece? Did he do a lap bond, i.e. overlap to two pieces or butt them together or ? When welding in a piece the accepted norm is to butt weld (end to end) the two pieces) not overlap since this will cause a differential in expansion of the panel (thicker seam) and stresses the joint. When the metal goes through many heat/cool cycles on a daily basis, each time it will be expanding and contracting at a different rate than the glue hence the greater likelihood of separation down the road.
We are not trying to rain on your parade. Perhaps you could find another well respected body guy in your area, maybe your alternate choice and run this by him also?
Now granted, welds can rust but done right I'm not convinced that a glue is the best way to go. Also, how did he glue in the replacement piece? Did he do a lap bond, i.e. overlap to two pieces or butt them together or ? When welding in a piece the accepted norm is to butt weld (end to end) the two pieces) not overlap since this will cause a differential in expansion of the panel (thicker seam) and stresses the joint. When the metal goes through many heat/cool cycles on a daily basis, each time it will be expanding and contracting at a different rate than the glue hence the greater likelihood of separation down the road.
We are not trying to rain on your parade. Perhaps you could find another well respected body guy in your area, maybe your alternate choice and run this by him also?
This repair may not please the purists, but this is not a concours car. It drives like a beast, but it has a bit of a history and I am correcting a fair amount of other poorly done body work on the rest of the car (subjects for other threads that I won't go into here).
I don't buy the argument that a metal weld will have substantially better thermal or mechanical fatigue resistance than a polymer glue. It all depends on the thermal expansion and elastic properties of the materials and the integrity of the 'weld' interface. Polymer composites these days have very tunable thermomechanical properties in addition to many other benefits (better flow, penetration, hydrophobicity etc.). Why more shops don't use newer glues/adhesives I don't know, perhaps this is purist no-no. I don't work in autobody so I have no idea, but was a material engineer in a past life so I have some sense of the issues at hand. I do know that these materials are not cheap!
Back to my case, I spoke to my shop guy at length yesterday and am convinced that he is doing the right job for my purposes. I read him some of your comments here, which made him smile. He said he is happy to pop out the windshield, but he viewed both sides of metal with a scope after cutting out the metal and feels with what he saw and with the penetrating sealants that he is using it is completely unnecessary and will not improve the repair or seal. This may be in light that this is not a concours car and the extent and source of the rust that he saw. He feels strongly that even with a windshield out weld that we are not compromising on the life of the repair. Happy to post more pics as they come in...
05-07-2012, 01:41 PM
#37
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If it were my car, I would tend to trust your PROFESSIONAL. He seems to be up on current technology and wants to do a nice job for you. You have voiced your concerns and it sounds like he has addressed them well. Get out of the way and let him finish the job. I think that you will be pleased with his work.
Phil
Phil
05-07-2012, 11:31 PM
#38
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If it were my car, I would tend to trust your PROFESSIONAL. He seems to be up on current technology and wants to do a nice job for you. You have voiced your concerns and it sounds like he has addressed them well. Get out of the way and let him finish the job. I think that you will be pleased with his work.
Phil
Phil
Amen. He has been very patient with my hand-wringing. I just spoke to him today and apparently the paint is done and he is beginning to reassemble. I am direct shipping all the seals and gaskets from Pelican. Hopefully, things will wrap up this weekend. Will post pics as soon as I can...
05-08-2012, 12:00 PM
#41
05-08-2012, 12:37 PM
#42
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