Bruce Anderson's Values in Excellence magazine- What a joke!
03-29-2012, 09:47 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
ZOMG THE INTARWEB HAS INFLAMMATORY POSTS!!! If you can't cope with that reality, you best turn your computer off. 
And yup, 1998 C2S five years ago for $35k is stupidity, plain and simple. It's a bad mark on an otherwise great magazine. The price listings are actually interesting, and I suspect the vast majority of us would rather you fixed the numbers instead of eliminating the column. Just my 2c.
p.s. "2c" means "two cents" since you obviously don't understand the internet.
And yup, 1998 C2S five years ago for $35k is stupidity, plain and simple. It's a bad mark on an otherwise great magazine. The price listings are actually interesting, and I suspect the vast majority of us would rather you fixed the numbers instead of eliminating the column. Just my 2c.
p.s. "2c" means "two cents" since you obviously don't understand the internet.
03-29-2012, 10:19 PM
#48
Pete, I thoroughly enjoy your magazine. I literally get excited when I get it in the mail and savor every article. I even read them several times. I get most of the major magazines and yours is tops. Keep up the good work (although I agree with most people the value section is the least valuable to me. I never even read it).
03-29-2012, 10:40 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
There's a lot of stuff going on here: relatively few data points, our admitted non-objectivity with regard to 993's affecting our perception, a certain confirmation bias whenever we see a car trade hands at high prices vs. the low-priced dogs that get swept under the rug, and the simple fact that 993's were only on a traditional depreciation curve for a short period of time immediately after their debut. Post 996, they gained cachet and hence price, and now they seem to be on the cusp of another change: are they '73 RS-esque classics to be, or are they really old cars now? Perhaps the 3.2's are our best guideposts, as they preceded the relatively unloved 964's.
While this is perhaps a defense of Bruce's column, the truth is we have more and better information about these cars than the great unwashed. We can capitalize on this if we choose when buying from the uninitiated. On the sell side, however, best to sell to a fellow aficionado: intellectual arbitrage!
While this is perhaps a defense of Bruce's column, the truth is we have more and better information about these cars than the great unwashed. We can capitalize on this if we choose when buying from the uninitiated. On the sell side, however, best to sell to a fellow aficionado: intellectual arbitrage!
03-30-2012, 12:03 AM
#50
Burning Brakes
I think Ed has made some good points. In my case, it was reading Bruce Anderson that brought me back into the Porsche fold. After seeing the trouble my friends had with 2.7 liter 911S's I knew I didn't want to share that grief. If you guys are unhappy about his 993 valuations, how would you feel about what he had to say about those 2.7's if you owned one of those. I must say that I always enjoy his technical writing, although there are folks on this forum who might disagree due to their far superior technical knowledge compared to mine. As to his valuation of 993's, if you accept his assumed mileage of 7-9000 miles per year (still well under the 12-15K national average) then what is a 17 year old C2 with between 119,000 and 153,000 miles worth. I think he is low in his estimates but I also think our cars are very likely the cream of the crop of 993 survivors. After all,there were tens of thousands sold here, but how many are represented on this site. The car sitting in my garage was driven 1,600 miles per year before I bought it! I plan to raise that average considerably. I sold a 95 NA to buy this car, and it had been
driven only 3,100 miles per year. Our cars are not representative of
the 993 market. Bruce's valuations might be low, but using our cars
as the touchstone would be even more misleading. Just my opinion.....Cheers.....Chris
driven only 3,100 miles per year. Our cars are not representative of
the 993 market. Bruce's valuations might be low, but using our cars
as the touchstone would be even more misleading. Just my opinion.....Cheers.....Chris
03-30-2012, 12:20 AM
#51
Nordschleife Master
Yup, completely agree!
I wish I still had the one where I submitted my car to the buyers section. He said I over paid, & the "options" were not everyone taste. This was my C4S BTW, 2 owners, 36kmi, perfect shape.
Maybe we should do a write in campaign, letting him know that his HIGH valves are more low values, & he needs to do some research. Hell, even Blue Book changed the vales!
I wish I still had the one where I submitted my car to the buyers section. He said I over paid, & the "options" were not everyone taste. This was my C4S BTW, 2 owners, 36kmi, perfect shape.
Maybe we should do a write in campaign, letting him know that his HIGH valves are more low values, & he needs to do some research. Hell, even Blue Book changed the vales!
03-30-2012, 12:33 AM
#52
Chris, our cars are indeed the best of the breed. But as an interloper who has just recently purchased a 993, do you not think the Excellence Market Evaluations would throw a prospective buyer off base? It certainly did me. I appreciate the technical info which allowed me to make an intelligent 993 purchase, but the pricing info is not appropriate for well sorted 993s. Hell, you can't even find a 993 ad on autotrader with correct spelling for under 25K. Perhaps the Rennlist transactions can set the tone? I did not wish to discuss what I paid for my 993 prior to this as I thought it was exclusively my business. Now I see it is not and would be happy to discuss with Pete S what I paid for a 95 993 with 27K along with the condition of said subject. Pete please contact me at g50carerra@hotmail.com if you wish.
03-30-2012, 01:32 AM
#53
Drifting
Pete, thanks for coming on here and sharing. When my daughter asked me what I wanted for Christmas, I asked for a subscription to Excellence. It had been a couple of years since my last one so it's nice to be getting it again. Keep up the good work. Guys, can we take the name calling down a notch please.
03-30-2012, 02:48 AM
#54
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
As the Original Poster on this thread I can say I am thoroughly impressed with the overall tone of this thread. I think it achieved my objective which was to raise awareness of an issue which was detrimental to all of us and eroded confidence in what is an otherwise EXCELLENT magazine.
I appreciate everyones feedback and the generally constructive ideas. Pete it truly shows me that you care about what you do and are a true professional that you would draft such a well thought out response. I know our community can handle people a little roughly at times (It's just like a family here...) but you jumped into the fray.
Thanks to all!
Don't forget to come to 993 Fest June 9-10th!
I appreciate everyones feedback and the generally constructive ideas. Pete it truly shows me that you care about what you do and are a true professional that you would draft such a well thought out response. I know our community can handle people a little roughly at times (It's just like a family here...) but you jumped into the fray.
Thanks to all!
Don't forget to come to 993 Fest June 9-10th!
03-30-2012, 02:55 AM
#55
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Calif
Posts: 1,151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ya know, I'd glady trade my 993 convertible for a non-convertible in tolerable condition - I like the 993 but I'm sick and tired of the stupid convertible top and its "features" -maybe those low values aren't all that out of line
03-30-2012, 07:58 AM
#56
Agent Orange
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Pete - a class act as usual, thank you for your hard work!
PS (Just sent a subscription to my father-in-law who got a Cayman as a retirement present for himself)
PS (Just sent a subscription to my father-in-law who got a Cayman as a retirement present for himself)
03-30-2012, 09:26 AM
#57
Rennlist Member
I'd love to have an iPad edition of Excellence. I'm mostly digital and trying to get to 100% - the only holdouts that I get on paper are Excellence, Panorama, Roundel and Cirrus Pilot (a small circulation aviation periodical).
03-30-2012, 09:37 AM
#58
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CURRENT: Audi TT / Audi A3
Posts: 1,219
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
There's a lot of stuff going on here: relatively few data points, our admitted non-objectivity with regard to 993's affecting our perception, a certain confirmation bias whenever we see a car trade hands at high prices vs. the low-priced dogs that get swept under the rug, and the simple fact that 993's were only on a traditional depreciation curve for a short period of time immediately after their debut. Post 996, they gained cachet and hence price, and now they seem to be on the cusp of another change: are they '73 RS-esque classics to be, or are they really old cars now? Perhaps the 3.2's are our best guideposts, as they preceded the relatively unloved 964's.
While this is perhaps a defense of Bruce's column, the truth is we have more and better information about these cars than the great unwashed. We can capitalize on this if we choose when buying from the uninitiated. On the sell side, however, best to sell to a fellow aficionado: intellectual arbitrage!
While this is perhaps a defense of Bruce's column, the truth is we have more and better information about these cars than the great unwashed. We can capitalize on this if we choose when buying from the uninitiated. On the sell side, however, best to sell to a fellow aficionado: intellectual arbitrage!
+1
03-30-2012, 11:30 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
There's a lot of stuff going on here: relatively few data points, our admitted non-objectivity with regard to 993's affecting our perception, a certain confirmation bias whenever we see a car trade hands at high prices vs. the low-priced dogs that get swept under the rug, and the simple fact that 993's were only on a traditional depreciation curve for a short period of time immediately after their debut. Post 996, they gained cachet and hence price, and now they seem to be on the cusp of another change: are they '73 RS-esque classics to be, or are they really old cars now? Perhaps the 3.2's are our best guideposts, as they preceded the relatively unloved 964's.
While this is perhaps a defense of Bruce's column, the truth is we have more and better information about these cars than the great unwashed. We can capitalize on this if we choose when buying from the uninitiated. On the sell side, however, best to sell to a fellow aficionado: intellectual arbitrage!
While this is perhaps a defense of Bruce's column, the truth is we have more and better information about these cars than the great unwashed. We can capitalize on this if we choose when buying from the uninitiated. On the sell side, however, best to sell to a fellow aficionado: intellectual arbitrage!
...As to his valuation of 993's, if you accept his assumed mileage of 7-9000 miles per year (still well under the 12-15K national average) then what is a 17 year old C2 with between 119,000 and 153,000 miles worth. I think he is low in his estimates but I also think our cars are very likely the cream of the crop of 993 survivors. After all,there were tens of thousands sold here, but how many are represented on this site. The car sitting in my garage was driven 1,600 miles per year before I bought it! I plan to raise that average considerably. I sold a 95 NA to buy this car, and it had been
driven only 3,100 miles per year. Our cars are not representative of
the 993 market. Bruce's valuations might be low, but using our cars
as the touchstone would be even more misleading. Just my opinion.....Cheers.....Chris
driven only 3,100 miles per year. Our cars are not representative of
the 993 market. Bruce's valuations might be low, but using our cars
as the touchstone would be even more misleading. Just my opinion.....Cheers.....Chris
And Chris, your low-mileage 3,100-miles-per-year car probably IS representative of the market! I just checked Autotrader, and of the 38 1995 993's listed in the U.S., they averaged 68,000 miles (median = 62,000). That's just 4,000 miles per year. Surprisingly low.
03-30-2012, 01:05 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
I love the magazine!
Cars in the Anderson price range are out there. But the real price variation is too large for the sample size. I think if you were to put 95% confidence bounds on any 'mean' it would show you are likely to pay $20k-$50k for a 993. The other 5% probably go from $15k-$90k. Good decision to go another direction with the mag.
Anecdote:
About two years ago I was shopping for a bottom-of-the-market car. I wanted it for a donor so I was looking for a manual transmission and low price. I intended to use the harness, pedal ***, trans, ... and part out the rest. I used a saved search and notifications on several sites. Most of the cars I saw at the bottom of the range were tips, and high mileage of course. I ended up buying a very nice car with ~180k miles, excellent documentation form new, engine rebuild, and many good mods, for ~$21.5k. The car was so nice that I didn't have the heart to part it out. I swapped my tiptronic into it and sold it with full disclosure for $18k. It sold quickly and went back to Germany.
Cars in the Anderson price range are out there. But the real price variation is too large for the sample size. I think if you were to put 95% confidence bounds on any 'mean' it would show you are likely to pay $20k-$50k for a 993. The other 5% probably go from $15k-$90k. Good decision to go another direction with the mag.
Anecdote:
About two years ago I was shopping for a bottom-of-the-market car. I wanted it for a donor so I was looking for a manual transmission and low price. I intended to use the harness, pedal ***, trans, ... and part out the rest. I used a saved search and notifications on several sites. Most of the cars I saw at the bottom of the range were tips, and high mileage of course. I ended up buying a very nice car with ~180k miles, excellent documentation form new, engine rebuild, and many good mods, for ~$21.5k. The car was so nice that I didn't have the heart to part it out. I swapped my tiptronic into it and sold it with full disclosure for $18k. It sold quickly and went back to Germany.