Mike J

I had heard that Bruce is quite ill and is getting on in age, so I do not think he will be driving the numbers much longer (I took the Bruce/Jerry engine rebuilding course - both guys are excellent). It would be good to know who will be taking over, and what methodology they are using.

Cheers,

Mike

cabrio993

Bruce is been out of touch with reality for some time now.

I don't think anyoneone takes his numbers seriously anymore.

I know I just skip his Excellence section all together for the past few years. Waste of printed pages in my book...

jody stowitts

Never forget that opinions are like a--h---s, everybody's got one.

ashirji

I bought my 95 993 with 27K miles a couple months ago. I read said update in Excellence, expecting I would be commanding the best 993s for 25K. I was laughed at by more than one seller. I would agree- show me an "excellent" 993 for 25K, and I would buy 2- one to sell for a market correct price and one to drive the snot out of for several years, and then resell for 25K. I love Excellence, but the Buyer's Guides are doing both the sellers and the prospective buyers a great disservice.

uscarrera

I too do not agree with some of the values listed in Excellence, years ago I traded info with Bruce when I created the "US Carrera 2.7 Registry" for the 1974 and 1975 US Carreras. At that time the value listed in Excellence was the same as a regular 74 or 75 911. The fact that the Carreras had some special build items and the fact that they had a unique VIN assigned by Porsche convinced me their value was different and over the years that has proved out. I think 993 are similar to that experience, most guides see them as "just" used cars and attach normal depreciation values. I have always thought that Excellence should solicit values from the people who know the most about each model a lot like the way PCA valuation guide works. How much more accurate would the 993 values listed be if the 993 Rennlist forum members contributed to our car values?
In defense of Bruce I am not sure we can measure the contributions he has made to our love of Porsche cars, just time for Excellence to get this section of magazine up to the current standards of the rest of the mag, that is my opinion and yes I am an *******, sorry I meant I have an *******
Rich

C4S993

Why did they leave out values for the 993 C4S ? What would Bruce value a 172k miles C4S ?

DanL993

BRUCE: Here's an idea. Beyond your data you collect for the other article on recent sales in the magazine, how about reaching out to Rennlisters to see if they would be willing to share and help you clean up your data. We buy and sell cars all the time and at a minimum you get two things:
1. Far better realtionship with this important Porsche AND READER community, and
2. Far better and more valid freakin' info for the mag.

Wouldn't take much--seems as if we're ready. What say you??

DC from Cape Cod

$23.50

stout

No, you're definitely not the only one.

I'm quite a ways into a response to your points, and those of others, but I am also on a deadline and need to get the book out first.

I will, however, try to post a thoughtful response to your points, and those of others, later today or tomorrow.

Best,

pete

TheOtherEric

This idiocy by Bruce Anderson regarding 993s has been going on for a long time. Here's a thread from 5 years ago:
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-foru...-anderson.html
At the time, he said a '98 C2S EC was worth $35k when the average list price on Autotrader was $57k.

It's amazing that Excellence continues to publish such stupidity, especially since it's so financially damaging to Porsche owners.

techman1

I love my car. Like others here, I consider myself a 993 enthusiast. What percentage of 993 owners do we represent?
It may be possible his values are a combination of enthusiasts and "normal" owners. I have heard of a few mint 993's being sold for a steal, mad to miss them!

IXLR8

I have a reasonably clean, low mileage 1995 993 C2 in Speed Yellow that Mr. Anderson can have a look at for $24,100.

DC from Cape Cod

I could trade in my car/sell it to a dealer today for a solid 50% more than his prices.

A difference of opinion is one thing...but his values have no basis in reality and the magazine is doing a huge disservice to Porsche owners and subscribers by allowing it to go out the door with such erroneous information.

This isn't just the opinion of a few message board car nuts - call any dealer specializing in air-cooled Porsches and they say the exact same thing...including a number of Rennlist sponsors.

Zed.

The best use of Mr. Anerson's values are in a divorce settlement if you intend on buying back your car

stout

Again, you're definitely not the only one.

I'd have to research all of the prices you've mentioned above to see if they're a fair representation of what was quoted for cars in good condition, but I will respond to your thoughts, as well as some from others, below:


-First, one of the biggest problems with Bruce Anderson's Market Updates/Buyers Guides is one of terminology. He's trying to help establish prices for cars with 7,000-9,000 miles per year with normal wear and tear but no problems in need of repair. This is a very different thing to "excellent" cars, and very different to the cars those who complain loudest about his numbers point to, which are usually superb/original-paint/low-mile/etc examples. These are exceptional cars, and exceptional cars always sell for considerably more than merely "good" examples. And, when it comes to the "hot" Porsches (356, early 911, increasingly 993, 930, 964 and even, to a lesser extent, 914), this trend is only amplified.

-I wonder how many cars out there that look nice even qualify as "good" cars —*i.e. cars with no needs. If sellers are honest, I bet not many. And that only gets worse as the cars get older.

-Bruce is trying to come up with a pricing guide that's applicable on a nationwide basis, both inside and outside the sphere of PCA/Rennlist/EarlySRegistry/etc. That sphere certainly does exist, and it is part of why one sees NADA/Edmunds/etc. values where they are. And they are low, usually much lower than we quote and certainly lower than what we can expect to pay if we're buying from a marque enthusiast.

-There has always been a disconnect between how the general marketplace and "Porsche insiders" (and I count myself as one...) value the cars, and this continues to be reflected in PCA member asking prices (on the whole...), as well as what Porsche people (again, myself included) will pay for the right car — because we know what it costs to put them right, as well as the value of original paint (priceless?), the right mechanics, etc.

-Bruce has always said it's tough to note prices without driving them, and has thus always been conservative —*not necessarily making radical changes to the numbers in a year where one or even several well-publicized examples sell for an incredible price. In fact, he tends to note but throw out the wild examples. We recently got a Reader Sales Report on a $107,000 928 GTS. Personally, I think GTSs are worth more than our numbers suggest, but one must ask: Should that six-figure result (apparently between two adults who pass the car between each other) be allowed to affect the numbers? How about if another car sells for that much?

-I've changed the condition description (from "Low" and "Excellent" to "Low" and "High" for good cars) in recent years to try to get everyone on the same page, and added a note regarding the premium that should be accorded exceptional cars. Frankly, I don't think it has worked.

-I see far more criticism of the numbers in forums populated by the car's proponents than anywhere else. I try to take a measured view of this. Here, you have experts (and self-appointed experts), many of whom have a very good handle on the cars and the market for them). However, they may also have an appreciation for the cars that has an effect on their objectivity.

-I also see problems with using specialty dealer asking prices or PCA asking prices to peg values —*and do not think NADA/etc. values should be thrown out.

-For every vivid example of a top-dollar car, there is probably an offset. Last year, I found myself strongly considering a very clean black/black 1995 993 C2 6-spd coupe offered by a specialty dealer for $23-24k. It was all stock but for Euro taillights, and I viewed it as a very good buy from a dealer known for pricing his wares high, especially because the car was so nice. It sold pretty quickly, but not overnight. I've seen similar examples of other models going for prices not so far off Bruce's numbers, but again, I've seen examples of cars going for much more — but these are usually "beyond excellent" examples. Remember, "excellent" still means 7,000-9,000 miles per year, putting 126,000 to 162,000 miles on an early 1995 993. Anything less would add at least 10 percent to the value by Bruce's estimation method, and I would have to think significantly fewer miles would add significant value.



For all of the above, however, I view Market Update/Buyers Guide as one of the magazine's biggest weaknesses. The series was started 20 years ago, and the market for used Porsches has changed significantly since then, with the separation of oil and water having a most interesting effect. The pre-986/996 cars have become rarer, and the most desirable models rarer still and even less likely to trade hands. Trying to come up with a yearly database to follow these trends with such limited sample sizes isn't easy — unless you can get everyone to supply real transaction numbers. To my knowledge, no one has managed to do that. Appraising a single car is a very different thing.

Some base values on depreciation curves and standard pricing guides. Others peg them to auction results (one of the worst ways, in my opinion). Others go by asking prices (also problematic). The best way, in my view, is to consider every source you can get your hands on and then build an intimate knowledge of the car in question. What I've seen more and more — and not just with 356s anymore — is that condition is the key determining factor in a special-interest Porsche's value.

Trying to nail price guides in this reality is difficult at best, so I've decided the magazine will go in a different direction and wrote a Commentary announcing this last week. We'll keep our Reader Sales Reports in place, as I see them as one of the only true windows into actual transaction prices. We'll move the model histories to the website for those who want to learn more about the cars, and we'll put greater emphasis on Smart Buy, which is a better snapshot of the market for a single interesting Porsche model, and far more current. In the meantime, we'll introduce new ways to cover the marketplace for used Porsches.

As to compliments for the magazine in this thread, I appreciate those sentiments. The book has grown and changed over the years, and needs to grow and change again. It's never been good enough for me, and isn't now, either. So thanks for your input, whether criticism or praise...and know that it is truly appreciated.

Cheers,

pete