Looking for a keeper 993...
02-03-2012, 09:26 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Came close on a very nice 'lister's car...still looking 
02-03-2012, 03:45 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Like I said, my preferences come from my history with Muscle cars. In the MC world, cars with "added" options are frowned upon in general. In the old days, we added "SS" packages to our plain Jane cars and called them what they were...fake SS's Now they're called "clones" and "recreations" by those attempting to legitimize their cars. I still think they are "fakes" As for suspension upgrades etc., I'm OK with that, but I won't pay more for it as I am not specifically looking for that.
As far as modding goes, we did that back in the old days too and those cars are referred to as "Day 2" cars today. Many of our beloved 993's are in the Day 2 stage of their life cylce right now. Day 2 cars are great and I love them, but the real collectible cars are the unrestored originals. Those are the cars that I like best.
Now they're called "clones" and "recreations" by those attempting to legitimize their cars. I still think they are "fakes" As for suspension upgrades etc., I'm OK with that, but I won't pay more for it as I am not specifically looking for that.As far as modding goes, we did that back in the old days too and those cars are referred to as "Day 2" cars today. Many of our beloved 993's are in the Day 2 stage of their life cylce right now. Day 2 cars are great and I love them, but the real collectible cars are the unrestored originals. Those are the cars that I like best.
Just interested in understanding your philosophy a little further. Based on your experience with Camaros, do you think that reversible mods ( ie suspension, wheels, etc) will devalue a 993 in the future if the stock parts are not kept ? Also, if a car is returned to stock using new OEM parts (but not the originals), on a low mile vehicle, does this diminish value ?
If you find the vehicle you are looking for in stock form will you mod it ?
Geoff
02-03-2012, 04:24 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Geoff, In the muscle car world there are various levels of "original" that affects the value of the car. The best of the best are the unrestored originals - often reffered to as "survivors". The most stringent judging for these cars is the "Bow Tie" class in the NCRS. Points are awarded for condition and originality of parts. An original car that has had a part removed and reinstalled recieves a deduction if it is detectable. So, a car that was modded and then the parts put back would recieve a slight deduction over a car that had not been modded and maintained its original parts (we look at fasteners etc. to detect evidence of removal). The cars that we all marvell over are those that have not been touched at all - they typically came from **** retentive owners The next level of car is the mostly original car that might have had a few repairs/replacements but maintains most of the original paint, interior etc. Next is the fully and correctly restored car having its original drivetrain. And finally the correctly restored car that might have a replacement motor or tranny etc. Value goes down from there based on condition and originality. The most valuable parts are those that came on the car originally and we check for condition, configuration, part number and dates to try and confirm this.
This all might seem crazy to today's 993 owner, but in another 20 years I bet the above will apply to 993's too. I will consider a lightly modded car if the price is right, the mods can be reversed and did not require any paint work, and the mileage is not in the teens. If I am spending north of $55K on a car it needs to be completely original and mint. If it is a $50K car or less, I will be a little more forgiving as I will likely drive it more often than a true collector's piece. I doubt I would mod any mid mile car (30K or more) beyond a set of wheels and the suspension when it needs it.
I know this thinking goes against the grain for many here, but to each his own. I've been playing with cars for almost 35 years and have gone through all of the various stages of modding, restoring, showing etc. and this is just where I want to be today.
For those who are not familiar with muscle car world values; in 1999 I bought a 1967 Z-28 for $27,500 in nice driver quality. It was worth about $100K by 2006. That same car today would bring about $150K if fuly restored. 993's are cheap
The next level of car is the mostly original car that might have had a few repairs/replacements but maintains most of the original paint, interior etc. Next is the fully and correctly restored car having its original drivetrain. And finally the correctly restored car that might have a replacement motor or tranny etc. Value goes down from there based on condition and originality. The most valuable parts are those that came on the car originally and we check for condition, configuration, part number and dates to try and confirm this. This all might seem crazy to today's 993 owner, but in another 20 years I bet the above will apply to 993's too. I will consider a lightly modded car if the price is right, the mods can be reversed and did not require any paint work, and the mileage is not in the teens. If I am spending north of $55K on a car it needs to be completely original and mint. If it is a $50K car or less, I will be a little more forgiving as I will likely drive it more often than a true collector's piece. I doubt I would mod any mid mile car (30K or more) beyond a set of wheels and the suspension when it needs it.
I know this thinking goes against the grain for many here, but to each his own. I've been playing with cars for almost 35 years and have gone through all of the various stages of modding, restoring, showing etc. and this is just where I want to be today.
For those who are not familiar with muscle car world values; in 1999 I bought a 1967 Z-28 for $27,500 in nice driver quality. It was worth about $100K by 2006. That same car today would bring about $150K if fuly restored. 993's are cheap
Last edited by Onami; 02-03-2012 at 04:44 PM.
02-03-2012, 05:35 PM
#34
Nordschleife Master
Geoff, In the muscle car world there are various levels of "original" that affects the value of the car. The best of the best are the unrestored originals - often reffered to as "survivors". The most stringent judging for these cars is the "Bow Tie" class in the NCRS. Points are awarded for condition and originality of parts. An original car that has had a part removed and reinstalled recieves a deduction if it is detectable. So, a car that was modded and then the parts put back would recieve a slight deduction over a car that had not been modded and maintained its original parts (we look at fasteners etc. to detect evidence of removal). The cars that we all marvell over are those that have not been touched at all - they typically came from **** retentive owners The next level of car is the mostly original car that might have had a few repairs/replacements but maintains most of the original paint, interior etc. Next is the fully and correctly restored car having its original drivetrain. And finally the correctly restored car that might have a replacement motor or tranny etc. Value goes down from there based on condition and originality. The most valuable parts are those that came on the car originally and we check for condition, configuration, part number and dates to try and confirm this.
This all might seem crazy to today's 993 owner, but in another 20 years I bet the above will apply to 993's too. I will consider a lightly modded car if the price is right, the mods can be reversed and did not require any paint work, and the mileage is not in the teens. If I am spending north of $55K on a car it needs to be completely original and mint. If it is a $50K car or less, I will be a little more forgiving as I will likely drive it more often than a true collector's piece. I doubt I would mod any mid mile car (30K or more) beyond a set of wheels and the suspension when it needs it.
I know this thinking goes against the grain for many here, but to each his own. I've been playing with cars for almost 35 years and have gone through all of the various stages of modding, restoring, showing etc. and this is just where I want to be today.
For those who are not familiar with muscle car world values; in 1999 I bought a 1967 Z-28 for $27,500 in nice driver quality. It was worth about $100K by 2006. That same car today would bring about $150K if fuly restored. 993's are cheap
The next level of car is the mostly original car that might have had a few repairs/replacements but maintains most of the original paint, interior etc. Next is the fully and correctly restored car having its original drivetrain. And finally the correctly restored car that might have a replacement motor or tranny etc. Value goes down from there based on condition and originality. The most valuable parts are those that came on the car originally and we check for condition, configuration, part number and dates to try and confirm this. This all might seem crazy to today's 993 owner, but in another 20 years I bet the above will apply to 993's too. I will consider a lightly modded car if the price is right, the mods can be reversed and did not require any paint work, and the mileage is not in the teens. If I am spending north of $55K on a car it needs to be completely original and mint. If it is a $50K car or less, I will be a little more forgiving as I will likely drive it more often than a true collector's piece. I doubt I would mod any mid mile car (30K or more) beyond a set of wheels and the suspension when it needs it.
I know this thinking goes against the grain for many here, but to each his own. I've been playing with cars for almost 35 years and have gone through all of the various stages of modding, restoring, showing etc. and this is just where I want to be today.
For those who are not familiar with muscle car world values; in 1999 I bought a 1967 Z-28 for $27,500 in nice driver quality. It was worth about $100K by 2006. That same car today would bring about $150K if fuly restored. 993's are cheap
02-03-2012, 06:06 PM
#35
I keep searching for the "keeper" myself. The road has been very long for me. I wish you the best of luck with finding the "right one." And I like your strategy, especially being a muscle car (lean towards Shelbys) buff myself too.
02-03-2012, 06:06 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Found my keeper!
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02-03-2012, 07:57 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Geoff, In the muscle car world there are various levels of "original" that affects the value of the car. The best of the best are the unrestored originals - often reffered to as "survivors". The most stringent judging for these cars is the "Bow Tie" class in the NCRS. Points are awarded for condition and originality of parts. An original car that has had a part removed and reinstalled recieves a deduction if it is detectable. So, a car that was modded and then the parts put back would recieve a slight deduction over a car that had not been modded and maintained its original parts (we look at fasteners etc. to detect evidence of removal). The cars that we all marvell over are those that have not been touched at all - they typically came from **** retentive owners The next level of car is the mostly original car that might have had a few repairs/replacements but maintains most of the original paint, interior etc. Next is the fully and correctly restored car having its original drivetrain. And finally the correctly restored car that might have a replacement motor or tranny etc. Value goes down from there based on condition and originality. The most valuable parts are those that came on the car originally and we check for condition, configuration, part number and dates to try and confirm this.
This all might seem crazy to today's 993 owner, but in another 20 years I bet the above will apply to 993's too. I will consider a lightly modded car if the price is right, the mods can be reversed and did not require any paint work, and the mileage is not in the teens. If I am spending north of $55K on a car it needs to be completely original and mint. If it is a $50K car or less, I will be a little more forgiving as I will likely drive it more often than a true collector's piece. I doubt I would mod any mid mile car (30K or more) beyond a set of wheels and the suspension when it needs it.
I know this thinking goes against the grain for many here, but to each his own. I've been playing with cars for almost 35 years and have gone through all of the various stages of modding, restoring, showing etc. and this is just where I want to be today.
For those who are not familiar with muscle car world values; in 1999 I bought a 1967 Z-28 for $27,500 in nice driver quality. It was worth about $100K by 2006. That same car today would bring about $150K if fuly restored. 993's are cheap
The next level of car is the mostly original car that might have had a few repairs/replacements but maintains most of the original paint, interior etc. Next is the fully and correctly restored car having its original drivetrain. And finally the correctly restored car that might have a replacement motor or tranny etc. Value goes down from there based on condition and originality. The most valuable parts are those that came on the car originally and we check for condition, configuration, part number and dates to try and confirm this. This all might seem crazy to today's 993 owner, but in another 20 years I bet the above will apply to 993's too. I will consider a lightly modded car if the price is right, the mods can be reversed and did not require any paint work, and the mileage is not in the teens. If I am spending north of $55K on a car it needs to be completely original and mint. If it is a $50K car or less, I will be a little more forgiving as I will likely drive it more often than a true collector's piece. I doubt I would mod any mid mile car (30K or more) beyond a set of wheels and the suspension when it needs it.
I know this thinking goes against the grain for many here, but to each his own. I've been playing with cars for almost 35 years and have gone through all of the various stages of modding, restoring, showing etc. and this is just where I want to be today.
For those who are not familiar with muscle car world values; in 1999 I bought a 1967 Z-28 for $27,500 in nice driver quality. It was worth about $100K by 2006. That same car today would bring about $150K if fuly restored. 993's are cheap
No trouble understanding where you're at. After all it's your hard-earned dime and decision. Best of luck finding a gem.
Geoff
02-03-2012, 11:19 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
No problem Geoff. For those interested in unrestored muscle, here is a thread about one of my past '67 Corvettes that illustrates my interest in these gems...
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...=161471&page=1
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...=161471&page=1
02-04-2012, 09:29 AM
#41
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks! I wish I could afford your car, but it is out of my price range for sure!!!
02-05-2012, 05:33 AM
#42
Cruisin'
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02-06-2012, 07:25 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for the link, but I'd prefer a private sale (I want to know the PO and history).
At lunch today, my wife mentioned that she'd like to get me my car for my 50th birthday next month. I told her that I thought it might take longer than that to find my "keeper", so she suggested I find something "nice" to drive while I look - gotta love that woman! So, I will open up the search to any WB with nice options, 30K miles or less, all colors OK and sport seats are not a must have for this one. I'll make a separate wanted post in a week or so...
At lunch today, my wife mentioned that she'd like to get me my car for my 50th birthday next month. I told her that I thought it might take longer than that to find my "keeper", so she suggested I find something "nice" to drive while I look - gotta love that woman! So, I will open up the search to any WB with nice options, 30K miles or less, all colors OK and sport seats are not a must have for this one. I'll make a separate wanted post in a week or so...
02-06-2012, 07:32 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
I think I got a "I Love New York" t-shirt, and a 1 pound Hershey bar-albiet WITH Almonds, for my 50th from the wife.