Mercedesben

I have been an instructor at Summit point my local track for over a decade and run in the instructor group. (I know everyone is an instructor) I had a 95 993 years ago with the pss9 system and was not overly impressed. Upon install I found a brand new blown shock and sent it back to Gert (that puts a time and date stamp on this) I ran fast with the car but I thought I could have had similiar performance with some bilstein hds and good springs. I am about to upgrade my suspension and want some input from the forum before I make a decision. My 993 is mostly street and not a daily driver. I typically will run on r comps during the summer months and do autocross. How much faster is the pss10 sys than std bilstein hds and row o3o springs?? Do I need the 030 sways with either setup.
Car is std chassis.

bobt993

Big can of worms. My car went from stock to track in a little more than a year. I used a TRG Cup non- adjustable setup for a bit before going to Motons. Eventually the car went widebody to compete in GTS3 Nasa. It has done pretty well with a best summit lap of 1:20.3 with a stock engine. Suspension had a bit to do with that, but you need to also get rid of the bump steer and roll center issue to lower and spring the car properly. Your budget is going to decide how far you go. Spring rates can vary from 600/800 up to 1200/1400 with tenders (which is what I am running). You will need at least RS adjustable sway bars to go with any performance shock setup. I would consider a well tuned non adjustable or a set of used Motons before the PSS10s.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Bob is right; your budget dictates what you will use.

Good used Motons or JRZ's are a good deal shorter than OEM or PSS-10's and require Evo uprights and tie-rods to fix the bump steer problem at those ride heights.

If those bits are not in the budget, I'd be using PSS-10's since you are on R-comp tires.

Mercedesben

Ok my car is a street car which I want to make it much more agresive for the track. My last porsche was a 78 911 with a 3.5 with weber carbs full cage noisy bushings no heat or ac 73 rsr bodywork stiff suspension etc and still historic tags so I could drive it on the street. That car was a big pain and I ran to the luxury provided by the 993. I do not want another race car. I want a fast track car that I drive 100 miles to the track and then drive home. I do not need what motons offer and I would like to know the difference in lap times between pss and hds. I am currently running hoosier r6 and back to my question. Do I need the pss in this car? Budget wise I am comfortable with the price of the pss but i can get the hds for less and is the price diff worth it or will i regret it if i dont do the pss and i dont want to be cheap. I hear a good moton setup is close to 10k but i was offered a used cup car suspension for 2k but i thought that is overkill but a great price.

race911

Steve's answered, what more can be said? Motons do make for a damn compliant street shock, since you can tune it to do whatever.

We all know throwing on Hoosiers will allow for getting around a track quick(er) than pretty much anything else. After that, I suppose you could hustle a car with stock suspension around at a pretty decent pace.

If you're asking specifically about lap times, if you were local I'd want to know numbers. And data traces. Case in point was my 4S at 125K miles on stock suspension with 6 year old Hoosier that happened to be mounted to some unloved widebody wheels. I could do about 2:08 at Thunderhill (full) like that. After I installed the PSS9 I drove it a couple of times and really didn't go any quicker. Certainly it was more responsive and enjoyable. Just not quicker. (For comparison the yellow car can touch 2:00 flat with a similar tire.)

nile13

Ben, a simple question is - do you really need adjustability? If not, HD + springs (M030, M033, H&R, whatever, partially depending on what's allowed in your calss) would be fine. If yes, you will be looking at adjustable coilovers and not necessarily PSS10s.

Answer that question honestly and you are all set. If autocross is important to you, keep in mind that any non-stock spring or any adjustable coilover puts you in ASP. Best of luck competing there in a 993.

bobt993

Ken, the track he mentions is Summit Point. A good time on a street setup 993 would a 1:24. Race prepped would drop another sec and change. The most direct answer is not what you want to here. Suspension will improve your corner grip, but reduce your window of slip angle. Having a better suspension does not guarantee 1 or 2 secs. My experience was an adjustable shock/sway bar setup with proper camber and track alignment should be worth 1.5 secs at Summit assuming the car is already being driven to a given limit.
If you have data that you can post and your current alignment specs, then i can overlay where your going to make out much better and why.

KaiB

I'll make it easy for you. Order a set of PSS10s through Steve - you'll get the shocks, but more importantly you'll get Steve's full attention and private advice.

Priceless; trust all of us who have the pleasure of dealing with him and are faster on the track because of him.

The PSS10s are tremendously capable for a "compromise" system. In the right hands, they will allow a car to run competetive lap times at most venues, i.e. they are more than likely more capable than most of the drivers on them.

Simple stuff really.

Ed Hughes

That's why you should keep a "developed" 911 around in the garage! Refresh the 993 suspenders with new springs and HD's, and you have a great platform to test your skills.

cannon1000

My Motons are ordered and will be installed in a few weeks. I went with the Street Sports, but the club sports are another option as well.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

JMHO, but R6's are too grippy for H&R's and Bilstein HD's: at the minimum, you need PSS-10's to get sufficient spring rates and matched damping.

A Motion Control Suspension shock/spring package is around $5400 so thats a far cry from $10K. These are the latest & greatest from the founder of Moton who moved on to his new company.

As Ken wrote, these offer a level of adjustability for street & track that's totally unmatched by anything from Bilstein. Further, they are usually worth a 2-5 sec/lap improvement once all dialed in.

Call me if you want more details about all your options.

nile13

Steve, I'm curious if you can give a ballpark spring rate for H&R, M030, M033 and PSS10.

Mercedesben

Good points have been made here. I appreciate Steve's comments as well since he is a respected expert on our cars. I had been considering going to a newer 911 like a 997 or a 996 tt
but I really like my 993. I do want to make the car faster as the stock setup is just not cutting it anymore. I just want a faster car on the track that I can still enjoy on the street since my last 911 was a monster. I am still on the fence between pss10 and a bilstein hd setup.
I do intend to replace this car eventually and I realize that any upgrades I do will not increase the value of my car and might even reduce the audience of buyers in the future.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

I've not measured the M033 springs so I have no data on those, however I can tell you what the others are:

M030 150-200F & 225-275R
H&R Sport 240-260F & 280-310R
PSS-10 225/250F & 400-685R

The Bilstein uses an unconventional main-tender package so its not directly comparable unless one understands the relationship and crossover points between mains and tender springs.

element

I am in the same spot.. PSS10's or a HD setup + swaybars..

Mix of daily (everyother day with my mini) and track work 6 times a year. I like the tight setup of my mini, but think that the HD setup is what im leaning towards as i dont need the ride height adjustability and see value in adding the sway bars for the same price.

phil.