Targa Wind deflector
05-17-2013, 10:24 AM
#16
Ok, so this just happened to me this morning. Roof opened fine. Upon closing the main roof closed as normal and came to a stop. I depressed the switch again to close the deflector and nothing. It sounds as though the motor makes engagement and clicks but nothing. Tried re-opening and closing several time to no avail.
What is my first step? Sounds like checking the tightness of the axle plates? TIA
What is my first step? Sounds like checking the tightness of the axle plates? TIA
05-17-2013, 10:56 AM
#17
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You mean it sounds like the motors are stalled/not running (i.e. you hear a relay click but not motor), or "clicking" like the motors are running but slipping on the cable (that might sound like click-click-click-...)?
07-09-2013, 07:22 PM
#19
Instructor
This has just happened to me a couple days ago, but I was not monkeying with anything. Just one time I closed the roof, then cycled the switch to close the wind deflector, and nothing happened. After a couple more tries, now the deflector comes down part way.
I'm a bit reluctant to mess with pulling things apart as I'm not THAT mechanically inclined, or at least, I haven't studied the whole mechanism in detail. Does it sound like something fell out on it's own?
Any advice most appreciated.
I'm a bit reluctant to mess with pulling things apart as I'm not THAT mechanically inclined, or at least, I haven't studied the whole mechanism in detail. Does it sound like something fell out on it's own?
Any advice most appreciated.
As I told you, I only took one bolt out at a time. What I did not realize was that when I took out the front axle bot, the "carrier/rocker pin" that the bolt hold in place to the frame slipped out. It was just being pushed along by the gates, but would not allow the locking block to disengage. After I moved it a couple times, I must have pushed it enough so that it would partially push thevisor down. I simply levered the roof up (the front end was unatached and floating) and put the carrier back into place, tightened the axle, and voila.
I feel like a complete idiot chasing after a self-inflicted wound, but I'm happy to have it working as good as it was before. Thanks guys for talking me through this. It made me slowly look at what was going on, without ripping things apart.
Now if I could figure out my washer pump...
Cheers!
I feel like a complete idiot chasing after a self-inflicted wound, but I'm happy to have it working as good as it was before. Thanks guys for talking me through this. It made me slowly look at what was going on, without ripping things apart.
Now if I could figure out my washer pump...
Cheers!
07-10-2013, 11:49 AM
#20
Instructor
Update: I just noticed this morning that when I try to close the deflector I hear a loud click toward the rear of the car in the roof assembly. Also with the Targa top open at all it seems to rattle way more than normal. I drive on some pretty crappy city streets regularly lately and I wonder if something has jarred loose.
This has just happened to me a couple days ago, but I was not monkeying with anything. Just one time I closed the roof, then cycled the switch to close the wind deflector, and nothing happened. After a couple more tries, now the deflector comes down part way.
I'm a bit reluctant to mess with pulling things apart as I'm not THAT mechanically inclined, or at least, I haven't studied the whole mechanism in detail. Does it sound like something fell out on it's own?
Any advice most appreciated.
I'm a bit reluctant to mess with pulling things apart as I'm not THAT mechanically inclined, or at least, I haven't studied the whole mechanism in detail. Does it sound like something fell out on it's own?
Any advice most appreciated.
07-10-2013, 12:08 PM
#21
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These issues are hard to diagnose when seeing the roof in person, so its even harder to do remotely.
There are a few things to be aware of. The roof has a complex (for a roof) mechanism for opening/closing, a drive system that has sensors/microswitches to indicate position, and a controller (behind the rear shelf) that operates the whole mechanism.
The controller has a series of relays to operate the motors in both directions, and has inputs from the counters/sensors on the motors that it uses for positions sensing. The motors drive cables that can wear and stretch, if you hear a click-click-click, it usually means that gear on the motor is at a worn spot on the cable, and the cable needs to be replaced (doable but only for the brave..
). If the main roof closes, but then on the second switch depress you hear a click and nothing moves, its possible that the sensor on the drive motors has indicated enough cable has passed to close the main roof prematurely, so the controller will not proceed to complete the closing.
if the roof is open, the roof should not rattle - in fact if the roof is operating properly and is in good shape, it should not rattle at all - you might get the occasional sqeak from the rubber seals, but even that can be quieted down. The roof runs on guides, if its loose, those guides are worn and need to be looked at.
In the case of the defector only comes down part way, it could be a number of issues. If you hear the motor running and nothing happens, then the cable is likely stripped. If you do not hear the motor, but you can open and close the visor (partially) it sounds like the counter in the motor is off. If you have a partially closed visor, and you hear a click from the rear, but nothing happens, then it possible you are at the end of the cable, which means the cables are not in alignment.
Like I said, its complex, and we are going to see more issues as time progresses as these roofs age. As well, the number of mechanics who know these roofs was small to begin with, and now its virtually guaranteed that anyone working on them would be figuring it out the first time. If you want to have someone handle it, first job it to find someone who has done it before -> phone around and check the dealerships and good independents. If you cannot find someone with experience, then go to your most trusted mechanic with as much info (like the stuff on pcarworkshop) to support him.
Cheers,
Mike
There are a few things to be aware of. The roof has a complex (for a roof) mechanism for opening/closing, a drive system that has sensors/microswitches to indicate position, and a controller (behind the rear shelf) that operates the whole mechanism.
The controller has a series of relays to operate the motors in both directions, and has inputs from the counters/sensors on the motors that it uses for positions sensing. The motors drive cables that can wear and stretch, if you hear a click-click-click, it usually means that gear on the motor is at a worn spot on the cable, and the cable needs to be replaced (doable but only for the brave..
). If the main roof closes, but then on the second switch depress you hear a click and nothing moves, its possible that the sensor on the drive motors has indicated enough cable has passed to close the main roof prematurely, so the controller will not proceed to complete the closing. if the roof is open, the roof should not rattle - in fact if the roof is operating properly and is in good shape, it should not rattle at all - you might get the occasional sqeak from the rubber seals, but even that can be quieted down. The roof runs on guides, if its loose, those guides are worn and need to be looked at.
In the case of the defector only comes down part way, it could be a number of issues. If you hear the motor running and nothing happens, then the cable is likely stripped. If you do not hear the motor, but you can open and close the visor (partially) it sounds like the counter in the motor is off. If you have a partially closed visor, and you hear a click from the rear, but nothing happens, then it possible you are at the end of the cable, which means the cables are not in alignment.
Like I said, its complex, and we are going to see more issues as time progresses as these roofs age. As well, the number of mechanics who know these roofs was small to begin with, and now its virtually guaranteed that anyone working on them would be figuring it out the first time. If you want to have someone handle it, first job it to find someone who has done it before -> phone around and check the dealerships and good independents. If you cannot find someone with experience, then go to your most trusted mechanic with as much info (like the stuff on pcarworkshop) to support him.
Cheers,
Mike
07-10-2013, 04:47 PM
#22
Instructor
Thanks so much Mike. I have read pretty much all the posts (you've done many of them!) on the Targa top topic and went through the guide you have on your website, but I'm no mechanic these days. I bought my car knowing (hearing) that our local dealership mechanic is well versed in the 993, but I haven't tested him out yet. This may be the time.
From everything you said, it sounds like either the counter in the motor is off, or the cables are out of alignment. The visor just comes part way down and stops, and I hear a loud click behind me. Also the rattle issue -- it really does rattle when open, and a little bit when closed. It's not a squeak. So I wonder if my guides are worn and the extra motion going on (rattle) has maybe caused the problem of the deflector not fully closing. I've literally only deployed the Targa top maybe 20 times since I bought the car in December, so this is rather disheartening.
The saving grace is my Targa is not my DD, though I've been driving it more here in summer and I don't drive it in the rain. But I will need to get it fixed for sure.
Thanks again!
BT
From everything you said, it sounds like either the counter in the motor is off, or the cables are out of alignment. The visor just comes part way down and stops, and I hear a loud click behind me. Also the rattle issue -- it really does rattle when open, and a little bit when closed. It's not a squeak. So I wonder if my guides are worn and the extra motion going on (rattle) has maybe caused the problem of the deflector not fully closing. I've literally only deployed the Targa top maybe 20 times since I bought the car in December, so this is rather disheartening.
The saving grace is my Targa is not my DD, though I've been driving it more here in summer and I don't drive it in the rain. But I will need to get it fixed for sure.
Thanks again!
BT
These issues are hard to diagnose when seeing the roof in person, so its even harder to do remotely.
There are a few things to be aware of. The roof has a complex (for a roof) mechanism for opening/closing, a drive system that has sensors/microswitches to indicate position, and a controller (behind the rear shelf) that operates the whole mechanism.
The controller has a series of relays to operate the motors in both directions, and has inputs from the counters/sensors on the motors that it uses for positions sensing. The motors drive cables that can wear and stretch, if you hear a click-click-click, it usually means that gear on the motor is at a worn spot on the cable, and the cable needs to be replaced (doable but only for the brave.. ). If the main roof closes, but then on the second switch depress you hear a click and nothing moves, its possible that the sensor on the drive motors has indicated enough cable has passed to close the main roof prematurely, so the controller will not proceed to complete the closing.
if the roof is open, the roof should not rattle - in fact if the roof is operating properly and is in good shape, it should not rattle at all - you might get the occasional sqeak from the rubber seals, but even that can be quieted down. The roof runs on guides, if its loose, those guides are worn and need to be looked at.
In the case of the defector only comes down part way, it could be a number of issues. If you hear the motor running and nothing happens, then the cable is likely stripped. If you do not hear the motor, but you can open and close the visor (partially) it sounds like the counter in the motor is off. If you have a partially closed visor, and you hear a click from the rear, but nothing happens, then it possible you are at the end of the cable, which means the cables are not in alignment.
Like I said, its complex, and we are going to see more issues as time progresses as these roofs age. As well, the number of mechanics who know these roofs was small to begin with, and now its virtually guaranteed that anyone working on them would be figuring it out the first time. If you want to have someone handle it, first job it to find someone who has done it before -> phone around and check the dealerships and good independents. If you cannot find someone with experience, then go to your most trusted mechanic with as much info (like the stuff on pcarworkshop) to support him.
Cheers,
Mike
There are a few things to be aware of. The roof has a complex (for a roof) mechanism for opening/closing, a drive system that has sensors/microswitches to indicate position, and a controller (behind the rear shelf) that operates the whole mechanism.
The controller has a series of relays to operate the motors in both directions, and has inputs from the counters/sensors on the motors that it uses for positions sensing. The motors drive cables that can wear and stretch, if you hear a click-click-click, it usually means that gear on the motor is at a worn spot on the cable, and the cable needs to be replaced (doable but only for the brave..
). If the main roof closes, but then on the second switch depress you hear a click and nothing moves, its possible that the sensor on the drive motors has indicated enough cable has passed to close the main roof prematurely, so the controller will not proceed to complete the closing. if the roof is open, the roof should not rattle - in fact if the roof is operating properly and is in good shape, it should not rattle at all - you might get the occasional sqeak from the rubber seals, but even that can be quieted down. The roof runs on guides, if its loose, those guides are worn and need to be looked at.
In the case of the defector only comes down part way, it could be a number of issues. If you hear the motor running and nothing happens, then the cable is likely stripped. If you do not hear the motor, but you can open and close the visor (partially) it sounds like the counter in the motor is off. If you have a partially closed visor, and you hear a click from the rear, but nothing happens, then it possible you are at the end of the cable, which means the cables are not in alignment.
Like I said, its complex, and we are going to see more issues as time progresses as these roofs age. As well, the number of mechanics who know these roofs was small to begin with, and now its virtually guaranteed that anyone working on them would be figuring it out the first time. If you want to have someone handle it, first job it to find someone who has done it before -> phone around and check the dealerships and good independents. If you cannot find someone with experience, then go to your most trusted mechanic with as much info (like the stuff on pcarworkshop) to support him.
Cheers,
Mike
07-10-2013, 05:22 PM
#23
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Brian,
Yes, Mike always gives terrific advice and is extremely generous with his time. I wonder how he has so much time to browse these forums and still keep the family in check!
Our roofs can always cause a few pops and snaps for various reasons. But when the wind deflector stops part way down, the synchronization of the timing switches with the roof position is off. That, along with a rattling glass top, means the roof has loosened up and skipped a tooth or two on the gears. Either the glass top loosened up due to a binding, road bumps, or cable stretch. It's hard to say which came first.
Any ways, my experience tells me that there has been an almost definite slippage of the motor gears that mesh with the cables for the roof. If you don't feel comfortable with working on this (we'll help you thru the forum if you want to try) then don't play with it any more and bring it to your mechanic. You may be able to salvage the cables if they are not too stretched and the gears don't jump too much. Otherwise, you'll just make it worse and could lead to a larger repair.
Don't mean to scare you, but that's my experience with working on these tops the past few years.
Marc G.
Yes, Mike always gives terrific advice and is extremely generous with his time. I wonder how he has so much time to browse these forums and still keep the family in check!
Our roofs can always cause a few pops and snaps for various reasons. But when the wind deflector stops part way down, the synchronization of the timing switches with the roof position is off. That, along with a rattling glass top, means the roof has loosened up and skipped a tooth or two on the gears. Either the glass top loosened up due to a binding, road bumps, or cable stretch. It's hard to say which came first.
Any ways, my experience tells me that there has been an almost definite slippage of the motor gears that mesh with the cables for the roof. If you don't feel comfortable with working on this (we'll help you thru the forum if you want to try) then don't play with it any more and bring it to your mechanic. You may be able to salvage the cables if they are not too stretched and the gears don't jump too much. Otherwise, you'll just make it worse and could lead to a larger repair.
Don't mean to scare you, but that's my experience with working on these tops the past few years.
Marc G.
07-10-2013, 07:26 PM
#24
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Marc is the real expert here - he has taken these things apart down to the last screw. His assessment makes perfect sense.
Brian, what is your next step?
Cheers,
Mike
Brian, what is your next step?
Cheers,
Mike
07-11-2013, 05:17 PM
#25
Instructor
Marc and Mike -- you guys are awesome. Thank you so much.
I think maybe it's time to get my hands dirty. I used to do my own car repairs except major stuff and still have a decent set of tools, but I also just had some back surgery so contorting myself into the rear seat of the Targa to expose her innards makes me a bit skittish. But I can give it a try. I'll use the previous number of posts and documents posted to at least take a look behind the scenes. If I start getting out of my league I'll take take her to the local dealer mechanic and see if he's as good as I've heard. First question of course is "Have you ever worked on a 993 Targa roof?"
I think maybe it's time to get my hands dirty. I used to do my own car repairs except major stuff and still have a decent set of tools, but I also just had some back surgery so contorting myself into the rear seat of the Targa to expose her innards makes me a bit skittish. But I can give it a try. I'll use the previous number of posts and documents posted to at least take a look behind the scenes. If I start getting out of my league I'll take take her to the local dealer mechanic and see if he's as good as I've heard. First question of course is "Have you ever worked on a 993 Targa roof?"
07-11-2013, 05:46 PM
#26
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Yeah, being able to bend into a pretzel helps a lot when in the back set scrunched up trying to adjust something - I used to just love fiddling with the motors on the targa, given I am 6' and 230lbs ... :-)
Just take it step by step, chances are you will get somewhere fairly easily, if you can't, then at least the panels, etc are off for the mechanic.
Cheers
Mike
Just take it step by step, chances are you will get somewhere fairly easily, if you can't, then at least the panels, etc are off for the mechanic.
Cheers
Mike
07-11-2013, 10:14 PM
#27
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Brian,
Glad to hear you're up for the job! At least we can help to diagnose some of the problems and go from there.
Definitely ask if he's ever even SEEN a 993 targa top. I found very, very few that have any experience whatsoever with these cars. But if he's very intuitive and patient, he can figure it out.
I'm not a tall glass of water like my friend Mike (only 5'7 and 160#) but only a small child could turn this job into a minor game of twister!
Take off all the panels and maybe take some snapshots if you could so we can see what looks suspicious. I can even take some short movie shots on how the targa top should work if you need it.
Marc
Glad to hear you're up for the job! At least we can help to diagnose some of the problems and go from there.
Definitely ask if he's ever even SEEN a 993 targa top. I found very, very few that have any experience whatsoever with these cars. But if he's very intuitive and patient, he can figure it out.
I'm not a tall glass of water like my friend Mike (only 5'7 and 160#) but only a small child could turn this job into a minor game of twister!
Take off all the panels and maybe take some snapshots if you could so we can see what looks suspicious. I can even take some short movie shots on how the targa top should work if you need it.
Marc
07-15-2013, 02:55 PM
#28
Instructor
That's funny Mike - I'm 6-3 and about 240.
BT
BT
Yeah, being able to bend into a pretzel helps a lot when in the back set scrunched up trying to adjust something - I used to just love fiddling with the motors on the targa, given I am 6' and 230lbs ... :-)
Just take it step by step, chances are you will get somewhere fairly easily, if you can't, then at least the panels, etc are off for the mechanic.
Cheers
Mike
Just take it step by step, chances are you will get somewhere fairly easily, if you can't, then at least the panels, etc are off for the mechanic.
Cheers
Mike
09-25-2013, 01:14 PM
#29
Instructor
Update:
I hadn't driven my Targa in a few weeks as I was on travel, and I haven't done any work on it to try to diagnose the wind deflector problem. Drove it the other day and just for giggles I pressed the sunroof close button. Lo and behold the deflector came down normally. So now I'm really wondering what the heck is going on. The only thing I can think of that has changed in a few weeks is the weather is cooler, so perhaps the cables were stretched in the warmer weather and now they've contracted a bit. Or some other part. But clearly this seems to rule out a lot of the other possibilities since it's intermittent at best.
cheers,
I hadn't driven my Targa in a few weeks as I was on travel, and I haven't done any work on it to try to diagnose the wind deflector problem. Drove it the other day and just for giggles I pressed the sunroof close button. Lo and behold the deflector came down normally. So now I'm really wondering what the heck is going on. The only thing I can think of that has changed in a few weeks is the weather is cooler, so perhaps the cables were stretched in the warmer weather and now they've contracted a bit. Or some other part. But clearly this seems to rule out a lot of the other possibilities since it's intermittent at best.
cheers,
