OT.....Poll: How is the economy by you???
06-17-2011, 02:05 PM
#76
The truest 3 minutes about our current society I've ever heard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0
06-17-2011, 02:12 PM
#77
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Disclaimer: I am a firm believe in market economies and I usually vote for Conservative politicians so do not in anyway confuse what I am about to say as one of those "Power to the people, down with corporations" posts.
The most fare tax (if there is something called a fair tax) are consumption taxes. I don't like them, but to tell you the truth you don't notice them that much on small ticket items. It is the big ticket items you notice them on. But it's not like people on this site can't afford them. Heck there are people here who talk about buying their 4th or 5th 200k car like a child in a candy store. Anyone who can afford to buy a 100k car can afford to pay the consumption taxes on it. Of course this won't solve the two biggest problems Western society still faces.
1) The biggest problem with governments these days is spending and when you look at the US Federal Government, one of their biggest problems is military spending. Governments need to go on major diets, but very few if any are actually willing to do this. If it's not out of control Federal Government spending, it's out of control State or Provincial Government spending. If it's not that it's out of control Municipal Government spending. It is absolutely insane how out of control Government spending at all levels has become. I am sure they are in the minority on this site (I suspect most people here come from the private sector), but I wonder how many rich entitled Government workers we have roaming this site?
2) The other major problem we face is we live in a consumer credit society. When people have jobs, this consumer society can stay above the water, but North American and European jobs are being outsourced to China and India. I am in the process of losing my career to this outsourcing and if I want to survive I will have no choice but to try to reinvent myself into a new career in my middle age. I am not poor (LOL how many poor people own a house and a Porsche), but I sure as heck am not rich ... at least not like some of the people around here who buy new 100k cars every year. I can survive one year of unemployment (longer if I sold my car and cashed in on my retirement savings). But how many people in society are one paycheck away from financial doom. In most cases this was their own fault. In others cases, it wasn't.
Please I am NOT a victim. I am definitely a personal responsibility type of guy. But we as a society can not operate as individuals. When society does not have work, our consumer credit society will crumble. Every dominate society in the history of humanity has fallen. There is no reason why the dominate US society is different. Of course in our present global economy, if the US falls many other (if not all) countries will go with it. I know business is in business to make money and I have never been offend by how much money people have. But the people who only look at the bottom line, only care about their next profits and could care less about North America and Europe are in for a big wake up call in the coming years. Where there are no longer consumers to fuel their consumer credit society that will effect the entire world, where will they go to make their next billion? We can't all move to China.
We need another good world war to kill off a few billion surplus humans on this planet.
Just kidding ... or am I ...
The most fare tax (if there is something called a fair tax) are consumption taxes. I don't like them, but to tell you the truth you don't notice them that much on small ticket items. It is the big ticket items you notice them on. But it's not like people on this site can't afford them. Heck there are people here who talk about buying their 4th or 5th 200k car like a child in a candy store. Anyone who can afford to buy a 100k car can afford to pay the consumption taxes on it. Of course this won't solve the two biggest problems Western society still faces.
1) The biggest problem with governments these days is spending and when you look at the US Federal Government, one of their biggest problems is military spending. Governments need to go on major diets, but very few if any are actually willing to do this. If it's not out of control Federal Government spending, it's out of control State or Provincial Government spending. If it's not that it's out of control Municipal Government spending. It is absolutely insane how out of control Government spending at all levels has become. I am sure they are in the minority on this site (I suspect most people here come from the private sector), but I wonder how many rich entitled Government workers we have roaming this site?
2) The other major problem we face is we live in a consumer credit society. When people have jobs, this consumer society can stay above the water, but North American and European jobs are being outsourced to China and India. I am in the process of losing my career to this outsourcing and if I want to survive I will have no choice but to try to reinvent myself into a new career in my middle age. I am not poor (LOL how many poor people own a house and a Porsche), but I sure as heck am not rich ... at least not like some of the people around here who buy new 100k cars every year. I can survive one year of unemployment (longer if I sold my car and cashed in on my retirement savings). But how many people in society are one paycheck away from financial doom. In most cases this was their own fault. In others cases, it wasn't.
Please I am NOT a victim. I am definitely a personal responsibility type of guy. But we as a society can not operate as individuals. When society does not have work, our consumer credit society will crumble. Every dominate society in the history of humanity has fallen. There is no reason why the dominate US society is different. Of course in our present global economy, if the US falls many other (if not all) countries will go with it. I know business is in business to make money and I have never been offend by how much money people have. But the people who only look at the bottom line, only care about their next profits and could care less about North America and Europe are in for a big wake up call in the coming years. Where there are no longer consumers to fuel their consumer credit society that will effect the entire world, where will they go to make their next billion? We can't all move to China.
We need another good world war to kill off a few billion surplus humans on this planet.
Just kidding ... or am I ...
the western world has become the ultimate consumer, and as a result, has almost succeeded in consuming 'itself'. everybody wants a piece of the action, at any price, and that price is way too high.
06-17-2011, 03:24 PM
#78
Burning Brakes
Our situation is the "Tragedy of the Commons" writ large. In economics there is a precept called "The Tragedy of the Commons". An example of this would be the New England ground fishery. This was the richest fishery in the Atlantic up until 20 yrs. ago. With the advent of modern fishing techniques it was fished way beyond a sustainable level and finally fished out of existence. The fisherman knew that it wasn't in the interest of a healthy fishery to catch as many fish as they possibly could but it was in each of their immediate personal interest to do so, and so each fisherman caught as many fish as he could and obliterated the fishery and their livelihood.. It will not return for hundreds of years. The only thing that can prevent the tragedy from occurring is an overarching regulatory authority, something that fell out of favor during the Reagan yrs. You can see the TOC at work in congress where a congressman acts in the interest of his constituency, or himself, at the expense of the national interest. A clear example of this is a weapon system the army doesn't want, and yet Sec. Gates is unable to get it eliminated because the defense contractors were clever enough to have the various parts manufactured in the key congressman's states.
Corporations exist to make as much profit for the shareholders as possible, nothing more. To expect a coal ming company or Goldman Sachs for that matter, to act in the interest of the environment or the workers, or the national interest, is to not understand the purpose of the corporation. The only thing that keeps corporations in line is the threat from government regulators and in a dwindling few cases, labor unions. I'm not as cynical as George Carlin but it is true that large corporate interests have tremendous influence in our political system, often to the detriment of the nation's interest. After the supreme court's "Citizens United" decision this corporate influence is likely to get much worse IMHO.
As to the matter of a consumption tax or a flat tax....the really rich love the idea and that should tell you something. Cheers ..... Chris
Corporations exist to make as much profit for the shareholders as possible, nothing more. To expect a coal ming company or Goldman Sachs for that matter, to act in the interest of the environment or the workers, or the national interest, is to not understand the purpose of the corporation. The only thing that keeps corporations in line is the threat from government regulators and in a dwindling few cases, labor unions. I'm not as cynical as George Carlin but it is true that large corporate interests have tremendous influence in our political system, often to the detriment of the nation's interest. After the supreme court's "Citizens United" decision this corporate influence is likely to get much worse IMHO.
As to the matter of a consumption tax or a flat tax....the really rich love the idea and that should tell you something. Cheers ..... Chris
06-17-2011, 05:24 PM
#80
Burning Brakes
A character referenced to, but never appearing in Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". Alan Greenspan was an acolyte of Ms. Rand's sophomoric economic theories and we can see where that got us.
06-17-2011, 06:27 PM
#81
Racer
I have 3 major problems with our society today.
(1) Every leader I see (politicians, business, academic, press etc.) act only on their own short term interest. No one is preaching, and leading by example, doing long-term good for the country. Greed and ego rule the day. Shame and morality are not even in the volcabruary.
(2) Majority of the citizenry demands that government take care of their own interest and pet causes. They all think that someone else will/should pay for all these largesse.
(3) The political and civic ego is so huge that everything we do MUST be gold-plated. A 4.5 mile bridge span costs $8+ billions. The World-Trade-Center Memorial (not the rebuild, a memorial) costs $1 billion. Government cannot do anything for less than a $billion these days. No social program costs less than a $trillion over a decade. We police and give aides to right all wrongs all over the world. No one watches the government dollars-spent, ever.
No country in the world is rich enough to weather this perfect storm.
CP
(1) Every leader I see (politicians, business, academic, press etc.) act only on their own short term interest. No one is preaching, and leading by example, doing long-term good for the country. Greed and ego rule the day. Shame and morality are not even in the volcabruary.
(2) Majority of the citizenry demands that government take care of their own interest and pet causes. They all think that someone else will/should pay for all these largesse.
(3) The political and civic ego is so huge that everything we do MUST be gold-plated. A 4.5 mile bridge span costs $8+ billions. The World-Trade-Center Memorial (not the rebuild, a memorial) costs $1 billion. Government cannot do anything for less than a $billion these days. No social program costs less than a $trillion over a decade. We police and give aides to right all wrongs all over the world. No one watches the government dollars-spent, ever.
No country in the world is rich enough to weather this perfect storm.
CP
Now if only we could get someone in DC to care enough to change things....not holding my breath.
06-17-2011, 06:37 PM
#82
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Sad to hear that HKS is closing its USA operations.
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...e-hks-usa.aspx
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...e-hks-usa.aspx
06-17-2011, 06:45 PM
#83
Three Wheelin'
You must have read a different version of this book than I, since JG ends up as Dagny Taggert's love interest. His radio address to the nation must have taken up close to 100 pages alone.
06-17-2011, 07:43 PM
#84
Burning Brakes
You may be correct. I read the book in my senior year of high school some 48 yrs ago. I will check it out. My opinion of Ayn Rands economic theory is settled, that is to say, I reject them. One of her last books, maybe her very last was "The Value of Selfessness" pretty much says it all...